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Does CoS need new models?


PiotrW

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1 hour ago, Moonlightwolf said:

A lot of Cities of Sigmar is an olive branch to tide over until they have fully realised concepts for those armies in AoS. Models take time to design redesigning an entire force takes even longer and they've already done a number of order focused new armies. I imagine the disappearance of most of the High elves that don't have a city named after them means they now have a concept and are in the process of designing tyrion/teclis aelf faction, while the phoenix temple appear likely to be given daughters of kaine treatment sometime in the far future. On the other hand they are probably still in the process of planning how free-guild or Malarion's Aelves will look so those models stick around. The fact is they don't want half the model range sitting around without up to date rules because then sales will be even lower than they are already because these aren't the newest models. Plus at least with free-guild just a few simple conversions quickly bring them into AoS. My brother put stormcast faceplates on his freeguild forces and they absolutely fit the army of sigmar aesthetics.

Truth is, the main issue is space. Production is real cheap. The molds already exist, and that is by far the most expensive part of the process. They could print into infinity old kits provided they had a place to put them. The big issue GW runs in to is space issues, not production costs. 

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15 hours ago, PiotrW said:

Let me apologize beforehand if I end up being controversial...

I looked at Cities Of Sigmar and I immediately realized that this is just not a faction (or group of factions) that I could get myself interested in. Why? The reason is, it just doesn't fit with AoS visually. Not the human side of things, at least.

As we all know, the models that represent normal humans in AoS (as opposed to SCE) are models that were moved into AoS from Warhammer Fantasy Battle. In that particular setting, these models made sense - as the Old World was fashioned after late Middle Ages / early Rennaissance. But in my opinion, the same models completely don't fit with the AoS stylistics and setting. Mortal Realms are a high fantasy setting divorced from WFB's medieval inspirations. Why would humans still wear late Middle Age clothing there, then..?

I really would like for GW to release an Order-aligned human faction that would be more in line with the general feel of AoS...

why wouldn't they wear mebdieval clothing and armour? why not? give me an actual reason other than "because i don't think it matches". why does it not match? hmmm? 

the Idoneth are 100% AOS yet their thralls don't wear any armour and weld non-magic bows and swords. why can humans wearing plate armour not fitt in a universe like that?

or are you just complaining they look like old world minitures because, so do chaos deamons, chaos mortals (STD), Skaven, beasts of chaos (and thus almost the  whole of Chaos, pretty much), Sylvaneth (parts of it), DoK (parts of it), Orruks (parts of it), Goomspite (parts of it), Ogres, legions of Nagash, FEC, Night Haunt, etc.

so what is your problem with COS specifically? why are you and others so against these specific order sub-factions but seem to be fine with the others?

 

now I would be fine with re-imagined COS stuff, but why are you pushing so hard for it, and apparent major changes? what do you expect orginary humans to look like in a setting where metal armour and medieval weapons to look like other than some form of twist on medieval-renaissance humans?

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3 hours ago, Overread said:

I don't see that. If GW wanted to discontinue the Cities armies I think they would have just discontinued them. Moving to 2.0 is the last perfect time for them to remove armies (like they have done with Greenskins and most of the Highelf stuff) before cementing them into the future of AoS as a game. If they start culling whole armies again its going to throw a spanner in the works and lose so much marketing and consumer confidence in AoS. 

Instead I think we will see one of several approaches:

1) They will flesh out Cities and expand upon it, new and updated sculpts replacing existing ones to build upon what they've established. 

2) They will treat it a bit like Legions of Nagash. A short term catch all combined arms army that keeps several concepts and armies ticking over and popular and will then address, in time, aspects of the army. So in 5 years we might see them release an update to Dwarves which uses most/all of the models in Cities and expands upon them, adding reinforcements and updating some sculpts along the way. 
Note this doesn't mean they all get an update, it might just mean that one or two aspects get updated and expanded upon, since Cities would still remain. 

Notice that they just left the most recent kits - you dont want to waste products, better to sell them releasing a book.
 If they would like to build and army on top of them they would release separate stuff like DoK.

8 minutes ago, stratigo said:

 

Truth is, the main issue is space. Production is real cheap. The molds already exist, and that is by far the most expensive part of the process. They could print into infinity old kits provided they had a place to put them. The big issue GW runs in to is space issues, not production costs. 

And logistics.

I'm far from a hater about the release, but it's just lacking any love... looks like a filler. What's sad the Orcs book also did not get any new models or even Spells & terrian...

 

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1 minute ago, Verengard said:

I'm far from a hater about the release, but it's just lacking any love... looks like a filler.

I guess I don't see why that's the case. It may not have terrain or endless spells, but it does buff the normal endless spells. And from all the discussion the rules are quite good, and after all is said and done it has probably the largest model count out of all the armies now. 

The idea of even making a tome at all to support old units, and then coming out with two separate SC boxes, seems to me like legitimate support. 

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3 minutes ago, Verengard said:

Notice that they just left the most recent kits - you dont want to waste products, better to sell them releasing a book.
 If they would like to build and army on top of them they would release separate stuff like DoK.

And logistics.

I'm far from a hater about the release, but it's just lacking any love... looks like a filler. What's sad the Orcs book also did not get any new models or even Spells & terrian...

 

I won't say it's lacking love, it does look rather coherent, and quite a bit of work has been poured into it, identity is mostly retained with speeding up or simplifying gameplay, and I rather like the batallions and city abilities. Retinue abilities and boosted realm magic are interesting, and KO and Sylvaneth inclusions neatly done (though they shouldn't cost an ability). There are flaws, like the artillery being lackluster and the Drakespawn knights missing their second lance attack, but the former can be explained by a rather unexpected loss of the gunmaster that could have compensated, the latter by a mistake. This is, of course, assuming the rumour that the book was mostly written by a single designer.

What it lacks is not love from the designer, but commitment from the company. GW did not give it a single new mold, and it feels like there are a few holes in the book that would have been plugged by culled sets. That's not on the designers, but higher up the food chain.

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4 minutes ago, Frowny said:

The structure of the book also leaves it open to easy additions like new heroes or new cities. They could even create 3 small kits and then theme a new city around them.

I don't expect new kits for the cities, but if it runs well, a White Dwarf for Lethis or Excelsior? Maybe.

EDIT: If there are no kits now with the big release, I don't expect them in a smaller one.

Edited by zilberfrid
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6 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

What it lacks is not love from the designer, but commitment from the company. GW did not give it a single new mold, and it feels like there are a few holes in the book that would have been plugged by culled sets. That's not on the designers, but higher up the food chain.

I don't distinguish between designers, managers etc - for us players what counts is the end result which is far from what was expeced, sadly.

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11 minutes ago, Verengard said:

what counts is the end result which is far from what was expeced, sadly.

I’m afraid that’s more of a problem of certain players building up their own baseless expectations, rather than on the part of GW themselves. I certainly wouldn’t have put money on new sculpts or terrain; endless spells were more viable, but i’m not sad to see us without any uniques. If Skaven only got one new mini, in a limited run box, despite frankly outrageous options like metal acolytes still existing as battleline, it seems bizarre to expect much more for CoS. The two Start Collecting! options came as a nice surprise.

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8 minutes ago, RatOfGod said:

I’m afraid that’s more of a problem of certain players building up their own baseless expectations, rather than on the part of GW themselves. I certainly wouldn’t have put money on new sculpts or terrain; endless spells were more viable, but i’m not sad to see us without any uniques. If Skaven only got one new mini, in a limited run box, despite frankly outrageous options like metal acolytes still existing as battleline, it seems bizarre to expect much more for CoS. The two Start Collecting! options came as a nice surprise.

I would have to agree with that. I do think it's legitimate to wonder why they didn't add new terrain or endless spells since I think most 2.0 tomes have gotten those, but beyond that at the end of the day there's a new tome that seems to have a variety of options for a viable army. That seems pretty good to me 

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11 minutes ago, smartazjb0y said:

I would have to agree with that. I do think it's legitimate to wonder why they didn't add new terrain or endless spells since I think most 2.0 tomes have gotten those, but beyond that at the end of the day there's a new tome that seems to have a variety of options for a viable army. That seems pretty good to me 

I was quite negative about the tome before. Not as much now.

Not getting any plastic is a bit of a blow, at least some building would be logical for Cities, because, well, they are cities. A watchtower or something would be good to put as display, and fit the theme well, or some ruins, or a barrack, or an infirmary where we could heal up, or a clocktower that would get units to work together a bit better, or something. Anything.

Not getting plastic means GW isn't risking even a single mold for this, which makes it harder for me to want to commit myself to buying more stuff.

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2 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Not getting plastic means GW isn't risking even a single mold for this, which makes it harder for me to want to commit myself to buying more stuff.

I think if Cities sells well they will get some more support down the line. I think this release is as much about testing the waters for future releases as it to tie up loose ends with dangler factions.

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3 hours ago, RatOfGod said:

I’m afraid that’s more of a problem of certain players building up their own baseless expectations, rather than on the part of GW themselves.

I feel the same. Cities of Sigmar and Orruks Warclans books were presented without any new models and imho, models, endless spells or even terrain where never part of this release. This release is just about gameplay and rules to play with your old models. 

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For most AoS-era armies (i.e. those with new miniature releases), the player is generally railroaded along the creative path laid out by GW's designers, artists and lore writers.

Sure, there is some things you can do to add your own twist on these armies, but their theme is so inherent within the sculpts (e.g. IDK are nautical in almost every detail) that it would be difficult to turn them into a whole new theme like, say, "Fire Idoneth".

However, in Cities of Sigmar the player essentially has a blank canvas - a generic force onto which he can add his own thematic "skin". This means that you could make an army of humans from frozen wastelands (a Kislev Made to Order, please!), as well as "Fire Elves", "Forest Dwarfs", "Desert Elves", (etc.).

A Cities of Sigmar miniature release would stifle this creativity, as the theme and aesthetics would be signposted and heavily-converted armies would become more the exception than the rule.

Edited by Kyriakin
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If only they had kept the units and hero variations that looked far more up-to-date.   Instead GW made some very odd choices, like retaining the oldest-looking version of the freeguild general?  Either way, this keeps the people who prefer this side of GW's fantasy happy, so if you don't like it, play any number of the other 2.0 factions??

19 hours ago, Forrix said:

I haven't seen many of the kits up close but the big hole in the lines are the lack of hero kits. Freeguild general on foot really needs a new kit. Wanderers really need more than just nomad prince (had thought all aelves would be made to work together in Cities but nope).  They could also use a named character or two.

Agreed completely.  These partial factions now lack customization and flavor.

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I always find it funny when people claim the Empire models don't fit into AoS. As opposed to what, exactly? The whole Not!RenaissanceHolyRomanEmpire aesthetic is actually quite unique compared to... well, find me a popular fantasy setting with humans that does that.

Humans in fullplate, chainmail, swords, and shields is about as generic as a fantasy aesthetic as you can get it. Sticking with the Empire aesthetic actually makes Humans in AoS stand out MORE as GW continues trying to carve out it's niche as something different.

I remember when the Empire received their big update in... 6th, was it? Of which 90% of the surviving range is from. There were so many vocal complaints that the newer models didn't fit the tone, they were too 'fantastical'.  Seems we've gone full circle.

 

Edited by Clan's Cynic
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I agree with Zilberfred. Without new models it is difficult for me to have too much confidence in this release and to invest. A new freeguild general would have been most welcome. I don't think there were many realistic expectations of things like a cogfort. It is very nice to see some of the kits get rescued though. The Dr Robotnic flier always seemed an odd one to drop, given how new it was.

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23 hours ago, Overread said:

Heck Malazan Book of the Fallen is VERY high fantasy epic and yet one of the core sets of characters are sappers.

I can’t believe it!!!! This series finally mentioned. I read the entire series 10000 or so pages and loved it completely. 

Way off topic, sorry for this but you can’t let something like this go by and not mention it 😸

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3 minutes ago, Artobans Ghost said:

I can’t believe it!!!! This series finally mentioned. I read the entire series 10000 or so pages and loved it completely. 

Way off topic, sorry for this but you can’t let something like this go by and not mention it 😸

Honestly I happily put Malazn next to Game of Thrones - one is epic high fantasy the other is epic low fantasy  - both great series (Malazan only has the edge because the authors finished the main book series ;)) 

 

And yeah I'm surprised there are not more Malazan fans on here considering AoS is very Malazan in many respects and its epic nature 

Edited by Overread
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A lot of "People who like the Old World aesthetics generally don't like AoS" comments. As far as I've seen, most people around me, myself included, moved on from WHFB into AoS in one or two years, once the shock was over. We (as in, people who love WHFB aesthetically) do like and play AoS, and I, for one, would like the setting to grow, gain in depth and flavour and complexity, and the game to be fun times with friends. So, yes, we exist.

The fact that now they aren't releasing any life-saver new miniature in the Old World style is not only disappointing, but deeply worrying to me. I've bled ink and paint on an Empire army for 20 years, buying extra kits for conversions, applying that extra bit of greenstuff to recreate the units GW still refused to build and sell...  and now it's all "poof", thanks for playing, come back again for our oversized goldenboys who you can't even use as foot knights because they're big as a car!

I've tried looking at it from a positive lens, but all I can think of is "I'll never get new minis". Slowly, they'll discontinue the kits one by one. Ebay will be the only place I'll be able to find new material for my army.

People say "CoS don't fit the aesthetics of AoS!". And while the aesthetics of AoS are all over the place, many people here don't like the poofy hats and striped pantaloons, the whole 16th Century landsknecht thing. So... they might be right, like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If the target audience for AoS doesn't like the Cities of Sigmar's proposed look, which is carried over from WHFB, it's clear what will happen. Eventually, GW will try their hand at either "generic Medieval men" virtually indistinguishable from the armies of men from lesser fantasy miniature brands (Kings of War, for example), or "wacky new idea", which may be great, but it will not be the Empire anymore.

Sorry if this sounds exceedingly bilious. but I really had hopes for at least a captain or general kit as a little "hey, don't worry, little man, your small niche will not be forgotten, thanks for your loyalty". But no. Everything else is shaken to the core, High Elf players got racked good, Tomb King players are still salty that the Bonereapers are not Tomb King enough, and us, well...

I hope I'm wrong, but it feels like the last season of Game of Thrones. And man, was I right then.

Edited by Cèsar de Quart
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On 9/30/2019 at 6:13 AM, PiotrW said:

I looked at Cities Of Sigmar and I immediately realized that this is just not a faction (or group of factions) that I could get myself interested in. Why? The reason is, it just doesn't fit with AoS visually. Not the human side of things, at least.

Agreed. I'd prefer GW stop pandering to old WHFB armies that don't fit the AoS theme, which is essentially everything in CoS.

But that will make the grogs upset so we're stuck for now.

I think realistically these old model lines will go the way of mini marines in 40k. Slowly phased out over a number of years.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Let people have new rules for their old models. Eventually GW will just focus on new stuff.

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3 hours ago, 123lac said:

Agreed. I'd prefer GW stop pandering to old WHFB armies that don't fit the AoS theme, which is essentially everything in CoS.

But that will make the grogs upset so we're stuck for now.

What is the "AoS theme"?

One minute AoS is limitless and infinite in its possibilities, and the next minute is has a very strict and defined theme within which any miniature made before 2015 doesn't fit.

Sometimes I feel people just say this stuff as "payback" towards WHFB and its player base that was initially lukewarm (to say the least) towards AoS. In the case of those who entered the hobby more recently (i.e. directly into AoS), it's like the new boyfriend who never met his girlfriend's ex-bf, but hates him anyway and wants all traces/mentions of him gone.

It's one thing to not like WHFB aesthetics - which is fair enough - but phrases like "pandering" and "grogs" create the exact same exclusionary and somewhat toxic environment that the aforementioned grogs often get accused of.

Just enjoy what you enjoy, and let others enjoy what they enjoy. You don't have to play it and, if your feelings about it are really that strong, you don't have to play against it either.

 

Edited by Kyriakin
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The Empire have always been very distinctive visually though. Obviously they are based on historical precedents but they are imo pretty unique in a fantasy setting and already incorporated steam punk aspects including things like mechanical messenger pigeons and cannon. Of all the factions, they feel like a more or less natural fit for AoS. Which is why the lack of a character kit is disappointing. Really all that they needed was an updated knight kit and a steam tank/cog fort, as well as potentially a few updated characters.

The non human factions do feel very disparate to me in Cities, mostly because they were always very distinctive visually so putting  then together doesn't work so well. I'm an old world dwarf fan but I probably would have left the duardin at kharadron and fireslayers and given kharadron a miner/close combat unit and let the old models pass on. 

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7 hours ago, 123lac said:

Agreed. I'd prefer GW stop pandering to old WHFB armies that don't fit the AoS theme, which is essentially everything in CoS.

But that will make the grogs upset so we're stuck for now.

I think realistically these old model lines will go the way of mini marines in 40k. Slowly phased out over a number of years.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Let people have new rules for their old models. Eventually GW will just focus on new stuff.

What is this pandering you speak of?

I don't see it.

There is one book in four years and no new plastic (apart from now discontinued Silver Tower stuff).

If you say "dump them because a WFB player said something bad to me once", I can only say... profanities, so let's not.

The 16th century vibe was extravagant, and GW's take on it was more fantastical still (though crossbowmen and guards are boring).

I never played WFB, if not for Freeguild, I might not even be playing Warhammer, because I would like to start with the most relatable to see how the rest relates to what I know, and Freeguild (with college and Ironweld), is all there is in that regard.

I don't get the people living in the past where there was a lot of animosity between WFB and AoS. I do frankly find Stormvast badly designed, but I do like their gryph chargers and gryph hounds. I also like Fyreslayers, Kharadron and Gitz as well as quite a few Tzeenchian critters. I don't like all the old stuff either, Chaos warriors look even more silly than Stormcast, Seraphon are really showing their age and High elf helmets look odd.

Let's move forward, saddle our demigryphs, gryph chargers, magmadroth or dinosaurs, and ride into a beautiful future where we brotherly and sisterly slaughter each other's plastic!

Edited by zilberfrid
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