Does CoS need new models?

[PiotrW]

Let me apologize beforehand if I end up being controversial...

I looked at Cities Of Sigmar and I immediately realized that this is just not a faction (or group of factions) that I could get myself interested in. Why? The reason is, it just doesn't fit with AoS visually. Not the human side of things, at least.

As we all know, the models that represent normal humans in AoS (as opposed to SCE) are models that were moved into AoS from Warhammer Fantasy Battle. In that particular setting, these models made sense - as the Old World was fashioned after late Middle Ages / early Rennaissance. But in my opinion, the same models completely don't fit with the AoS stylistics and setting. Mortal Realms are a high fantasy setting divorced from WFB's medieval inspirations. Why would humans still wear late Middle Age clothing there, then..?

I really would like for GW to release an Order-aligned human faction that would be more in line with the general feel of AoS...

[stratigo]

That has been a standard complaint, the humans are too old fantasy and not at all high fantasy. 

 

Which is is ironic since humans got to stick around while the other far more generically fantasy armies saw large swathes of models cut

[RatOfGod]

Perhaps this isn't a faction for you then, and that's fine. There's no need for everything to appeal to everybody. This is GW extending an olive branch to those of us who still hold a particular fondness for our nostalgic, low fantasy WHFB factions, and I'm personally over the moon to be able to get my grumbling, traditional, bearded dwarfs and my frilly-sleeved, moustachioed, cod-piece wearing humans back on the table. 

[Overread]

I think some concepts such as high and low fantasy can be somewhat down to personal interpretation. High fantasy doesn't have to have everyone blinged out to the eyeballs with finery, sometimes some rough and ready rustic is needed too. Many times it can balance things out. Plus many high fantasy series still rely heavily on the same core components and things like humans and dwarves should not be overlooked. 

Heck Malazan Book of the Fallen is VERY high fantasy epic and yet one of the core sets of characters are sappers. Dressed in nothing but standard military gear, nothing more than (mostly sorta kinda) regular humans from the visual side. Dirty grubby sappers and yet they hold their own against incredible odds of high fantasy. Later on in one of the most epic books one whole "faction" goes to war with peasants weight of numbers style (like skaven clanrats, only people). So again whilst you might have epic wizards and the like; never underestimate the power of lots of regular people. 

 

As a setting I also think it keeps it grounded in a bit of reality. Because not every army is going to be chock full of heroic heroes; having your Cities of Sigmar armies comprised of mostly the "normal" peoples of the realms is a fantastic thing. It shows that they aren't just pawns to be fawned over by protective superpowered Stormcast. It shows that humanity, dwarvanity and elfininty can survive in the hostile and powerful worlds of the Realms

 

I would agree many of the models do need revitalising though, esp many of the core troops, however don't underestimate the power of paint. Sometimes a model can look dated because it was painted as such and a different style can result in a big difference. 

As for the future I'm sure that GW would love to release new models - in fact most of the AoS armies would benefit. From armies like Skaven and Seraphon who have extensive model lines, but a lot of old sculpts in metal and finecast or just early plastics that could be replaced; to armies like Fyreslayers and Flesheaters who need more models to increase their overall army diversity and visual appeal. 

 

 

[Forrix]

I haven't seen many of the kits up close but the big hole in the lines are the lack of hero kits. Freeguild general on foot really needs a new kit. Wanderers really need more than just nomad prince (had thought all aelves would be made to work together in Cities but nope).  They could also use a named character or two.

[eciu]

I think it would be enough not to remove good existing models from them....

[stratigo]

35 minutes ago, Overread said:

I think some concepts such as high and low fantasy can be somewhat down to personal interpretation. High fantasy doesn't have to have everyone blinged out to the eyeballs with finery, sometimes some rough and ready rustic is needed too. Many times it can balance things out. Plus many high fantasy series still rely heavily on the same core components and things like humans and dwarves should not be overlooked. 

Heck Malazan Book of the Fallen is VERY high fantasy epic and yet one of the core sets of characters are sappers. Dressed in nothing but standard military gear, nothing more than (mostly sorta kinda) regular humans from the visual side. Dirty grubby sappers and yet they hold their own against incredible odds of high fantasy. Later on in one of the most epic books one whole "faction" goes to war with peasants weight of numbers style (like skaven clanrats, only people). So again whilst you might have epic wizards and the like; never underestimate the power of lots of regular people. 

 

As a setting I also think it keeps it grounded in a bit of reality. Because not every army is going to be chock full of heroic heroes; having your Cities of Sigmar armies comprised of mostly the "normal" peoples of the realms is a fantastic thing. It shows that they aren't just pawns to be fawned over by protective superpowered Stormcast. It shows that humanity, dwarvanity and elfininty can survive in the hostile and powerful worlds of the Realms

 

I would agree many of the models do need revitalising though, esp many of the core troops, however don't underestimate the power of paint. Sometimes a model can look dated because it was painted as such and a different style can result in a big difference. 

As for the future I'm sure that GW would love to release new models - in fact most of the AoS armies would benefit. From armies like Skaven and Seraphon who have extensive model lines, but a lot of old sculpts in metal and finecast or just early plastics that could be replaced; to armies like Fyreslayers and Flesheaters who need more models to increase their overall army diversity and visual appeal. 

 

 

But they DON'T look like 17th century german landsknechts. There's a certain amount of baggage that comes with artistically representing a model in such a specific period and region. In old fantasy, it was visual shorthand for the empire being an HRE expy. But orphaned from that concept they look out of place compared to a more genericized visual representative of a human renaissance soldier. 

 

Some people can get around that, but is IS one of the number one complaints about the artistic merits of free guild, and so is something for GW to consider on a cost benefit ratio. It is evident that more people would like more fantastic, or at least more generically medieval humans. But that also may, and likely isn't, worth the cost of redoing the model line. 

[prochuvi]

And 100% oposite to you we have others people who dont like the weird and ugly style of aos and love the old style of fantasy.

 

So whats wrong in have as 20 aos armys with aos style and have one army with fantasy style for those us who dont like aos theme?

[zilberfrid]

Let's start by saying there is no singular AoS style.

 

We have 10ft tall armoured war machines in golden armour without regard of whether that could function.

Half naked future lower back problems elves.

Half naked firefighters, ehh, fyreslayers.

Steam punk dwarves.

Fishy elves.

Stoner goblins.

Tonka orks.

Bone golems.

Ghosts.

Tzeench's friends.

'70's metal cover angry humans and demons.

Kinky demons.

 

And that's just the recent armies. Ratmen, jungle orcs, balls with teeth and legs, beastmen, ghouls, and others also still exist.

Why is there no place for the guy taking up his hat and poofy pants? What have these saps ever done to you that they need to go? Is there no place for any comparison on how that demon relates to a human? Is showing up to a fight in fancy pants and half armour really that much stranger than in your loincloth?

Also, Empire is the most popular faction in Warhammer Total War, it'd be a bad decision not to give people that want to play humans a faction to go for. A bad decision GW had been desperate to force, by not putting the sets in stores and having bad availability in the webstore.

 

Now I desperately want new models, but they need to double down on the extravagance to replace boring guards and crossbowmen, and to show that they actually care about my army. Not to replace the hats and pants.

 

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, prochuvi said:

And 100% oposite to you we have others people who dont like the weird and ugly style of aos and love the old style of fantasy.

 

So whats wrong in have as 20 aos armys with aos style and have one army with fantasy style for those us who dont like aos theme?

 

And those people tend to not like AoS like at all. So they aren't gonna be happy with anything less than a full rollback to fantasy (which, well, we're actually maybe getting with legends. See, if you complain (to use a politer word) enough loud enough, GW will listen)

 

24 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Let's start by saying there is no singular AoS style.

 

We have 10ft tall armoured war machines in golden armour without regard of whether that could function.

Half naked future lower back problems elves.

Half naked firefighters, ehh, fyreslayers.

Steam punk dwarves.

Fishy elves.

Stoner goblins.

Tonka orks.

Bone golems.

Ghosts.

Tzeench's friends.

'70's metal cover angry humans and demons.

Kinky demons.

 

And that's just the recent armies. Ratmen, jungle orcs, balls with teeth and legs, beastmen, ghouls, and others also still exist.

Why is there no place for the guy taking up his hat and poofy pants? What have these saps ever done to you that they need to go? Is there no place for any comparison on how that demon relates to a human? Is showing up to a fight in fancy pants and half armour really that much stranger than in your loincloth?

Also, Empire is the most popular faction in Warhammer Total War, it'd be a bad decision not to give people that want to play humans a faction to go for. A bad decision GW had been desperate to force, by not putting the sets in stores and having bad availability in the webstore.

 

Now I desperately want new models, but they need to double down on the extravagance to replace boring guards and crossbowmen, and to show that they actually care about my army. Not to replace the hats and pants.

 

 

Actually all the models made for AoS specifically share sort of the same types of ascetics. They're quite unified. There is a lot of visual continuity between a stormcast warrior, a blood warrior, an ironjow brute, and a fyreslayer vulkite. They all share key visual shorthand. They're all sort of larger than life heroic proportions of bulging muscles and rage. Even namarti thralls are real swole for being elves. And they are all quite ostentatious and a bit over designed and largely more dynamic. Like, it you set up a warhammer fantasy model next to an AoS model, you could tell immediately that AoS is just a different kind of scale. Even the swole dudes of old fantasy, the chaos warriors, are weedy next to AoS models.

 

Now the real kicker is that much of the range has remained legacies from fantasy and they do not share the same visual ascetics (like witch elves, or 'ardboyz.)

 

But the empire's ascetic is so very keyed into a time and place that while fantasy elves or fantasy orcs not sharing the same sort of design sense with a stormcast or brute, that it is harder to overlook.

 

If they ever do redo empire models, you can be safe in the knowledge that they will certainly kick the ascetic to 11 like they have done with literally every other model made for AoS. But also, they're not redoing empire models any time in the near future. Like years and years and years.

Edited September 30, 2019 by stratigo

[zilberfrid]

13 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Actually all the models made for AoS specifically share sort of the same types of ascetics. They're quite unified. There is a lot of visual continuity between a stormcast warrior, a blood warrior, an ironjow brute, and a fyreslayer vulkite. They all share key visual shorthand. They're all sort of larger than life heroic proportions of bulging muscles and rage. Even namarti thralls are real swole for being elves. And they are all quite ostentatious and a bit over designed and largely more dynamic. Like, it you set up a warhammer fantasy model next to an AoS model, you could tell immediately that AoS is just a different kind of scale. Even the swole dudes of old fantasy, the chaos warriors, are weedy next to AoS models.

Now the real kicker is that much of the range has remained legacies from fantasy and they do not share the same visual ascetics (like witch elves, or 'ardboyz.)

But the empire's ascetic is so very keyed into a time and place that while fantasy elves or fantasy orcs not sharing the same sort of design sense with a stormcast or brute, that it is harder to overlook.

If they ever do redo empire models, you can be safe in the knowledge that they will certainly kick the ascetic to 11 like they have done with literally every other model made for AoS. But also, they're not redoing empire models any time in the near future. Like years and years and years.

We'll see if they ever do update them. Freeguild characters are already weirdly bulky compared to humans, I see no need to deform them even more and still keyword them 'human'.

I have no memories from fantasy, but the General on Griffin, Greatswords, Steam Tank and Pistoleers drew me in. I get that I am not the target of GW (I now get that, would not have started if I got that earlier this year), but I really do like the ruleset.

I hope people can step over the memory of Empire, and look at Freeguild on its own merit. That some may have had bad experiences when Empire was around is no reason to hate Freeguild now.

 

As for legends, I expect nothing of it. Just something where they can justify dropping models there.

Edited September 30, 2019 by zilberfrid

[Kyriakin]

7 hours ago, PiotrW said:

Let me apologize beforehand if I end up being controversial...

I looked at Cities Of Sigmar and I immediately realized that this is just not a faction (or group of factions) that I could get myself interested in. Why? The reason is, it just doesn't fit with AoS visually. Not the human side of things, at least.

Then do one of the other factions then. There's like 20+ others that are also fully supported...

[PiotrW]

Just to clarify something: I'm not saying that GW should drop the old Empire models. I understand it's a good decision from them to support an old army and not leave the old WFB players out in the cold.

What I'm saying is that they could add some new human models that wouldn't be tied to the very specific Holy Roman Empire aesthetics. Even when just reading the fluff, I get the idea that a faction of Order-aligned humans should be very diverse. The examples of Sigmar-aligned cities in the core rulebook are very colourful and suggest wide diversity of Free People cultures. Meanwhile, when you look at the actual models, it turns out all of Free People humans look like HRE immigrants...

Also, I'm not saying all of Order-aligned humans should look highly fantastical etc. Yes, theres' definitely a place for more mundane warriors in AoS. It's just mundane doesn't equate to HRE...

Just an observation, of course.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

And those people tend to not like AoS like at all. So they aren't gonna be happy with anything less than a full rollback to fantasy (which, well, we're actually maybe getting with legends. See, if you complain (to use a politer word) enough loud enough, GW will listen

I actually do like aos very much, although I don’t really like the looks of the hated poster-things, nor those of blind fish-things. I am somebody who really enjoyed grounded Dwarfs fighting skaven, humans defending with some unrealistic weapon upgrades their homeland.

and with the city of sigmar book this mostly becomes possible.

I think calling people who love the esthetics of armies from the old world or the fluff of the old world, to be those people who would rather play the fantasy edition a bit over exaggerating.

Sure we love our armies more then blind aelves, or Sigmarines, or the slayer armies, but that doesn't mean we dislike its setting nor do those old world armies not fit the esthetic of aos.

 

[Skreech Verminking]

17 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

Human models that wouldn't be tied to the very specific Holy Roman Empire aesthetics

Yeah you’re right lets bring back bretonnia😉.

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah you’re right lets bring back bretonnia😉.

Kislev!

[stratigo]

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah you’re right lets bring back bretonnia😉.

I agree. Bretonnia fit he aesthetic better. Bretonnia was a generic vaguely 14th century british aesthetic that has become the common shorthand for medieval humans in media, and so would fit in the setting with less jarring an impact.

[Overread]

I'd really love to see GW bring back Bretonnia in concept - knights, horses (well cavalry as they might be riding horses and pegasus and giant cat snakes as well), chivalry, castles etc..... A bit of classic Arthurian style then throw a nice bundle of magic on top and some AoS twists and magic and such. They wouldn't be Bretonnia but the concept would be a really sound one. 

[zilberfrid]

27 minutes ago, Overread said:

I'd really love to see GW bring back Bretonnia in concept - knights, horses (well cavalry as they might be riding horses and pegasus and giant cat snakes as well), chivalry, castles etc..... A bit of classic Arthurian style then throw a nice bundle of magic on top and some AoS twists and magic and such. They wouldn't be Bretonnia but the concept would be a really sound one. 

Basically, as long as there's a human/elf/dwarf faction where I can field light and heavy cav, various infantry and any two of crossbows/handguns/bows, I'll make do. Could be HRE themed (though this could just as well be a tercio, Dutch company, Italian company or with some modification conquistadores), could be Roman themed, could be Arthurian themed, I'll still use the models I have.

My worry is that GW wants nothing of this, and simply dumps humans/elves/dwarves. I won't have a "counts as" anymore.

Edited September 30, 2019 by zilberfrid

[Verengard]

The answer is very simple, they needed to do something with their stocks, so a temporary solution was needed called Cities of Sigmar - all latest kits & warehouse obs were moved to the book while the rest was wiped out. 

In the future they will release new human (high fantasy style human army), aelven (already have a teaser in form of Shadespire warband), duardin ('ground' dwarves) factions and the cities get discontinued.

[Overread]

Just now, Verengard said:

The answer is very simple, they needed to do something with their stocks, so a temporary solution was needed called Cities of Sigmar - all latest kits & warehouse obs were moved to the book while the rest was wiped out. 

In the future they will release new human (high fantasy style human army), aelven (already have a teaser in form of Shadespire warband), duardin ('ground' dwarves) factions and the cities get discontinued.

I don't see that. If GW wanted to discontinue the Cities armies I think they would have just discontinued them. Moving to 2.0 is the last perfect time for them to remove armies (like they have done with Greenskins and most of the Highelf stuff) before cementing them into the future of AoS as a game. If they start culling whole armies again its going to throw a spanner in the works and lose so much marketing and consumer confidence in AoS. 

Instead I think we will see one of several approaches:

1) They will flesh out Cities and expand upon it, new and updated sculpts replacing existing ones to build upon what they've established. 

2) They will treat it a bit like Legions of Nagash. A short term catch all combined arms army that keeps several concepts and armies ticking over and popular and will then address, in time, aspects of the army. So in 5 years we might see them release an update to Dwarves which uses most/all of the models in Cities and expands upon them, adding reinforcements and updating some sculpts along the way. 
Note this doesn't mean they all get an update, it might just mean that one or two aspects get updated and expanded upon, since Cities would still remain. 

[Moonlightwolf]

A lot of Cities of Sigmar is an olive branch to tide over until they have fully realised concepts for those armies in AoS. Models take time to design redesigning an entire force takes even longer and they've already done a number of order focused new armies. I imagine the disappearance of most of the High elves that don't have a city named after them means they now have a concept and are in the process of designing tyrion/teclis aelf faction, while the phoenix temple appear likely to be given daughters of kaine treatment sometime in the far future. On the other hand they are probably still in the process of planning how free-guild or Malarion's Aelves will look so those models stick around. The fact is they don't want half the model range sitting around without up to date rules because then sales will be even lower than they are already because these aren't the newest models. Plus at least with free-guild just a few simple conversions quickly bring them into AoS. My brother put stormcast faceplates on his freeguild forces and they absolutely fit the army of sigmar aesthetics.

[zilberfrid]

24 minutes ago, Moonlightwolf said:

Plus at least with free-guild just a few simple conversions quickly bring them into AoS. My brother put stormcast faceplates on his freeguild forces and they absolutely fit the army of sigmar aesthetics.

I, on the other hand stripped off shoulderplates of Stormcast I could not avoid getting, and put human heads on them, and found them a lot less awful. The other option I saw was to cut open their chest and put actual humans inside, like power armour. I have not yet done that, but there is enough room.

As for sales, GW isn't trying to sell them, they are only available through their own webstore, and availability there has been very spotty. Maybe this will improve (they are not marked "webstore exclusive", for instance), but things you cannot buy tend to sell badly.

Edited September 30, 2019 by zilberfrid

[Moonlightwolf]

18 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

As for sales, GW isn't trying to sell them, they are only available through their own webstore, and availability there has been very spotty. Maybe this will improve (they are not marked "webstore exclusive", for instance), but things you cannot buy tend to sell badly.

I mean they just brought out two whole start collecting boxes of old models. Its not that they're expecting to sell gangbusters but they're selling to those who like an army's aesthetic but want up to date rules and to feel like the army is supported. They'll sell more thanks to cities than they would if all those units still had outdated rules. plus it means they can retire the grand alliance order book which is an old book full of outdated rules in the original AoS branding.

[zilberfrid]

11 minutes ago, Moonlightwolf said:

I mean they just brought out two whole start collecting boxes of old models. Its not that they're expecting to sell gangbusters but they're selling to those who like an army's aesthetic but want up to date rules and to feel like the army is supported. They'll sell more thanks to cities than they would if all those units still had outdated rules. plus it means they can retire the grand alliance order book which is an old book full of outdated rules in the original AoS branding.

CoS is not GA order. No Seraphon, just two realms, no compendium allies.

But yeah, they make it more possible to buy CoS units now, and I think through third party sellers as well.

I was trying to buy archers and that general set a few times in the month leading up to the culling, and simply couldn't, even when it did not list as unavailable.

Edited September 30, 2019 by zilberfrid