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AoS 2 - Living City Discussion


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27 minutes ago, KydbrookP said:

With Strike and Melt Away, do you still need a Hero within 18”, or do the new command ability rules mean that units like Fulminators can use it on themselves?

There is no FAQ addressing this.  The command ability does say that the unit receiving it needs to be wholly within 18" of a hero.  However, there is nothing in the book that specifically says who has to be using the command ability.

Until this is addressed by an FAQ, you will probably need to talk to your opponent about how to interpret this, or if you are in a tournament, your tournament organizer.  There are 3 potential interpretations that I see:

A hero has to issue this command ability to a unit wholly within 18" of the hero.  This is the strictest interpretation, and matches the play pattern from 2.0.  Personally, I would plan any usage of this ability using this interpretation, with the potential for looser play patterns available.

A unit can issue the command ability to themselves, but they have to be wholly within 18" of a hero to do so.  This would be reading the rule as written, and following the exact wording of the rule, but since nothing about the rule says that a hero has to issue the command, the unit can do it to itself.

A unit can issue the command ability to itself, and no hero's have to be nearby.  This would be the loosest interpretation, and basically saying that with the new 3.0 rulings saying unit leaders can issue commands to themselves, and that the only requirement is that whoever is issuing the command has to be wholly within 18" of the target.

8 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Did they gain the elite keyword in the FAQ or do they have a sgt?

They gained the Elite keyword in the new book.

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7 hours ago, readercolin said:

A unit can issue the command ability to themselves, but they have to be wholly within 18" of a hero to do so.  This would be reading the rule as written, and following the exact wording of the rule, but since nothing about the rule says that a hero has to issue the command, the unit can do it to itself.

Thanks - this second one was my interpretation of the RAW too - just a shame as when I first saw Fulminators had Elite I thought they could go it alone.

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On 7/23/2021 at 2:41 AM, Erosharcos said:

- wyldwoods allow 1 TP from historical Sylvaneth allegiance (could be use to Sylvaneth unit) 

- you could take a treelord ancient to have 3 separate wylwoods in Living City 

- you can take treelords froms free TPs with 9 treelord ancient 

Some questions:

What is/are TP?

How do you get 3 wildwoods from a treelord ancient? I thought they could only produce one once per battle?

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On 9/18/2021 at 11:06 AM, The Red King said:

An app error doesn't override rules imo. Unless we get an FAQ saying its intentional I'm not going to let bad programming affect my games.

The Apps are pretty bad overall.  They themselves are negative play experience.  

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Any thoughts on this list?


Army Faction: Cities of Sigmar
Army Type: Living City
Battlepack: Pitched Battles
Points Limit: 2000 pts
General: Dreadlord on Black Dragon
Grand Strategies: Hold the Line
Triumphs: Inspired

Units
    Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage 
        Battlefield Role: Behemoth, Leader
        Enhancements
            Spells: Lifesurge
        Points Cost: 280 pts
    Dreadlord on Black Dragon (General)
        Battlefield Role: Behemoth, Leader
        Enhancements
            Command Traits: Ironoak Artisan
            Artefacts of Power: Amulet of Destiny
        Points Cost: 290 pts

Core Battalions
    Hunters of the Heartlands
        Gotrek Gurnisson (Ally) 
            Battalion Slot Filled: Troops
            Battlefield Role: Other
            Points Cost: 435 pts
        Demigryph Knights 
            Battalion Slot Filled: Troops
            Battlefield Role: Other
            Points Cost: 175 pts
        Dracothian Guard Fulminators (Coalition Ally) 
            Battalion Slot Filled: Troops
            Battlefield Role: Other
            Reinforced: Once
            Points Cost: 460 pts
    Vanguard
        Freeguild Crossbowmen 
            Battalion Slot Filled: Troops
            Battlefield Role: Battleline
            Points Cost: 105 pts
        Freeguild Crossbowmen 
            Battalion Slot Filled: Troops
            Battlefield Role: Battleline
            Points Cost: 105 pts
        Drakespawn Chariots 
            Battalion Slot Filled: Troops
            Battlefield Role: Battleline
            Points Cost: 80 pts
        Black Ark Fleetmaster 
            Battalion Slot Filled: Sub-commander
            Battlefield Role: Leader
            Points Cost: 70 pts

Total Points: 2000 pts

 

I just wanted to try Gotrek to maybe have a chance against big monster heroes.

Crossbows to clear screens for Fulminators, weaken enemy shooting, or just stay out of the way to get Hold the Line. Demigryphs as a mobile anvil/speedbump. Gotrek to head to the middle, so Fulminators and dragon can take on one half of the board, and enemy can’t respond easily without running into him. Chariot and Fleetmaster really making up the numbers, but could sit on an objective and chariot can always use strike and melt away to grab an undefended one across the board.

Any thoughts?

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  • 1 month later...

So been looking for that old "wood elf" feel with my LC army and i wanted to bring back o'l good waywatcher hero type.

I was looking at various options and it would be great to get your opinion's on these three:  (or anything i potentially missed)

I guess my biggest questions is - are these options valid for their points value in LC list or i should just give up on them

Knight Judicator with Gryph hounds -  It seems amazing for overall sniping of tough units coz rend, also for character sniping you can negate -1 hit with command ability. 30 range, -3(!!) rend 3 dmg 3/2 profile. 3+ save. No penalty for moving and shooting and gryph-hounds to shield from charges.  Downside ? its 205 points

Knight Venator - Six shooter version of Judicator. 30 range aswell, 6 attacks -1 rend, 3/3 profile, 12 move (!) and no shooting penalty for movement, also 3+ save.  Once a game 3+ ability D6 MW towards hero's. 175 points

or

Vanguard Raptors with longstrike - biggest dmg potential of 12, but most expensive with 240 points ( could be a unit of waywatchers :) ). 3/2 profile same as Judicator with -2 rend, which i like more than -1 on Venator. Question about single aetherwing in unit, im not really sure how it works - is aetherwing ability that gives +1 hit work for all raptors in the unit or only the champion?

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@Rahatlin it all depends on how competitive you are trying to be. If you're going for absolute maximum competitiveness then I don't think those are particularly good choices. If you want something that will play fine on a club level though I think all of those are potentially good enough. I'd probably go with the Knight-Judicator -- it even has that once per game ability that is a bit like the classic Hail of Doom Arrow.

Another option is to use your old Waywatcher models as counts-as. They'd be perfect as Shadow Warriors or Sisters of the Watch.

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9 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

@Rahatlin it all depends on how competitive you are trying to be. If you're going for absolute maximum competitiveness then I don't think those are particularly good choices. If you want something that will play fine on a club level though I think all of those are potentially good enough. I'd probably go with the Knight-Judicator -- it even has that once per game ability that is a bit like the classic Hail of Doom Arrow.

Another option is to use your old Waywatcher models as counts-as. They'd be perfect as Shadow Warriors or Sisters of the Watch.

Oh its mostly for my local leagues nothing big. I want it to be resonable and playable but definetly not min/maxing it :)

So far im kidna torn between Judicator and Raptors

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19 hours ago, Rahatlin said:

So been looking for that old "wood elf" feel with my LC army and i wanted to bring back o'l good waywatcher hero type.

What I've done is proxied my old units rebased to match.

I've used my Great Stag heroes as,. oh gee, memory.  Fullminators?  Decimators?  Uh....  Stormcast on dragon-horsie things.  

I've used a Great Eagle hero as Yndrasta.  

Generally the BSBs became unit std bearers, heroes became unit champs.  But with some work you can make an old "Wood elf" feeling army. 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/u8HUNVKydnPpvowA.pdf

 

There is a PDF for CoS that includes more Wanderers.  Even within a friendly local tournament, or any pick up games I see no reason these are an issue if you wanted a classic feel.  

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16 hours ago, Popisdead said:

What I've done is proxied my old units rebased to match.

I've used my Great Stag heroes as,. oh gee, memory.  Fullminators?  Decimators?  Uh....  Stormcast on dragon-horsie things.  

I've used a Great Eagle hero as Yndrasta.  

Generally the BSBs became unit std bearers, heroes became unit champs.  But with some work you can make an old "Wood elf" feeling army. 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/u8HUNVKydnPpvowA.pdf

 

There is a PDF for CoS that includes more Wanderers.  Even within a friendly local tournament, or any pick up games I see no reason these are an issue if you wanted a classic feel.  

Maybe i phrased it wrong sorry.

Its not about what models to proxy but are the listed units worth their price- if yes i might use them in my WE list and use waywatcher models as proxy :) 

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Has anyone had much experience with the updated Stardrakes in Living City? Now that both variants have a missile weapon (was just the Drakesworn previously) either is a juicy recipient of our ambush/move-->shoot-->move-->charge shenanigans, particularly the Lord with his 3+ save characteristic (obvious Amulet of Destiny wielder) to really tank some damage. Seems like a real no brainer choice in the current meta as it's fast, hardy and scary, but it is notably more expensive than a Dreadlord on Black Dragon.

Edited by Jaskier
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On 11/17/2021 at 11:45 AM, Jaskier said:

Has anyone had much experience with the updated Stardrakes in Living City? Now that both variants have a missile weapon (was just the Drakesworn previously) either is a juicy recipient of our ambush/move-->shoot-->move-->charge shenanigans, particularly the Lord with his 3+ save characteristic (obvious Amulet of Destiny wielder) to really tank some damage. Seems like a real no brainer choice in the current meta as it's fast, hardy and scary, but it is notably more expensive than a Dreadlord on Black Dragon.

The problem with that is that you are spending 500 points for a unit that you can expect an average of ~10 damage from in melee (before saves... but at rend-2 you can still expect ~6 to a 3+) and ~4.5 damage at range.  Yes, yes, I understand that they are more designed to be anvils than anything else, but when for the same price (460 points) I can bring a pack of 4 fulminators in from a board edge, shoot for an average of ~4 mortal wounds, and then move and charge for an average of ~37 damage... it is really really hard to choose the stardrake.  Then, 4 fulminators is 24 wounds on a 3+ save vs 18 on a 3+ (yes, the stardrake can take the amulet for an equivalent of ~27) and it is looking significantly worse, because the fulminators can perform the anvil role nearly as well as the stardrake can.

Basically, as a dragon fan and the proud owner of a stardrake... it is really, really hard to justify running one.  This hasn't stopped me from doing so, but being realistic, they usually underperform for their point total.  

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I plan on running both 4 Fulminators and the Stardrake :D Having a super tough monster hero that can fly, shoot, double-move (in practice) and chomp individual models seems well worth the investment. Obviously if I had to pick just one, I'd only run the Fulminators, but they can't do the Living City command on themselves anyway, and there's a lot of instances where a monster hero can score a bunch of bonus points - and from what I've tested the Stardrake is a really solid option for that. Definitely not the best damage dealer though, but rock hard. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
8 hours ago, EntMan said:

Can Living Cities have Kharadron Overlords as allies? I had thought they couldn't but can't now actually find anything to say no.

Yes.  Ko are allies for the cities, and only tempest eye and that morathi city don't get them as allies.

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20 hours ago, readercolin said:

Yes.  Ko are allies for the cities, and only tempest eye and that morathi city don't get them as allies.

Thanks. Now I'm wondering where I got it into my head that they couldn't...

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Tried out the following today in a casual 3-game tournament. 

Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix - General, Druid of the Everspring (Lifesurge)
Lord Celestant on Stardrake - Amulet of Destiny*
Sorceress - Cage of Thorns*
3x10 Dreadspears*
4 Fulminators*
20 Sisters of the Watch*
Battle Regiment*

The general gist is that everything except the Sorceress and Dreadspears ambushes, but the Phoenix is a flex option - after Game 1, I decided that it's usually going to be better to just deploy him to make use of his whopping 16" move on the smaller table sizes - it's a fairly easy turn one charge, the idea being to link up with the Fulminators as a bit of a protective bubble. The other side benefit is that starting him on the board gives me 2 extra CP across the round (though thanks to the Lord Celestant's once-per-game free command, I don't actually need these on turn 1; they're just nice to have.) In my practice games I've mostly been having all the ambushers try to arrive on the same side with the idea of destroying a flank and then wrapping in to the middle.

Game 1 was against Hosts of the Everchosen led by the big bad Archaon himself. I took second and was 'gifted' the double, meaning I wiped out two entire Varanguard squads and a Chaos Lord before he could do anything to my army. Ultimately we swapped deployment sides with my Sorceress and Dreadspears getting cleared by a Daemon Prince and Varanguard whilst the Phoenix and Stardrake mobbed Archaon in his backline (after winning another turn roll.) Was a close win, ending 39-37. The shoot-move was really strong on the second and third turns to get my Stardrake into position (a 24" moving dragon is no joke) to first kill Archaon and then help take back my side. 

Game 2 was against Sons of Behemat in Taker Tribe (3 Megas, 3 Mancrushers) notable for a 40 wound Kraken-Eater general and a Gatebreaker with the Amulet of Destiny. I took first turn to win a flank before he could start scoring, aiming to kill his Warstomper, but a mixture of failing to succeed in a Roar from the Phoenix and my Fulminators getting Roared in return saw me fail to kill it one go, ultimately leading to 3 of the Fulminators perishing before I could finish it off. This was a bit of bad luck but also greed, as I had my Sisters of the Watch wipe a Mancrusher lurking near the Warstomper (I knew on its lonesome it could pulverise the exposed Sisters) instead of helping focus down the Warstomper. Losing 3/4 Fulminators in that way meant that even though I won the flank, I lacked the damage output to kill his Kraken-Eater quickly enough to cut his inevitable point lead - especially as the Sisters of the Watch spent a full turn out of range (having wiped the flank, they had to run toward the middle.) The Stardrake died to a charging Gatebreaker which sealed the win for my opponent - some unlucky save rolling on my end played a part, but it was a stark reminder that the Stardrake is certainly not unkillable. 

Game 3 was against Tzeentch in Eternal Conflagration; Kairos, 6 Flamers, a boat load of Pink Horrors and lots of buffing characters. He castled up (we played the mission where objectives don't come down until round 2) and left no gaps, but underestimated the sheer damage output and mobility of my alpha strike. He unfortunately didn't have the Blues/Brimstones required to stop me wiping a unit of Pinks in shooting and then 'fading away' toward the middle of his castle with the Fulminators through the now very exposed gap, where they promptly killed Fateweaver, a Fatemaster and a Gaunt Summoner in one fell swoop. I deployed the Phoenix aggressively once again, charging it in a way that he was forced to waste Unleash Hell on it. We didn't get far into the game due to time restrictions but it was very clearly going to be a win to me, however it would have been very different if he had Blues/Brimstones available to stop my Fulminators assassinating his key characters. 

A few things stand out immediately after finally getting a chance to put the list through its paces.
#1 is that the Sisters are very immobile with just a 24" effective threat range but only double-tapping if they sit still (18" in that case.) Ambushing them on a 'safe' flank means they won't get mobbed, but it also leaves them with little to do in the one-two turns that they have to reposition. In that sense, I'm glad they're Sisters and not Irondrakes as it would be even more of an issue.

#2 is that the Phoenix's command trait really isn't that good on him without also running the Arcane Tome, as thanks to keyword chicanery he doesn't get the +1 to cast from the Stardrake nor does he give himself +1 save for casting a spell (as both rules key off a wizard casting.) However, if I stick with the Stardrake, he needs the Amulet as it's realistically the only thing making him semi-worth his points. On that note...

#3 is that the Stardrake is certainly of...debatable value, and I'm glad I've gotten to suss it out more. I didn't get to break coherency today, but it still performed fine. I'm just wondering now if there's a better way to spend 500 points; the big attraction to the Stardrake is how stupidly tanky it is, plus the 30" sniping and the shoot-move for a 24" total flying move in a turn if needed. I'm really just wondering if having something else that doesn't shoot is fine just so I can more easily reposition the Sisters of the Watch with StMA; that 500 points could easily be invested into bulking out the Sisters to 30 and subbing in a Celestant Prime (I'd have to shave 5 points off the list which is easily done by using Freeguild Guard) for example, but it feels like a less flexible army at that point, especially as the Prime is nowhere near the tank the Stardrake is. The other question is whether I actually need another tank besides the Phoenix, and that's what is really bothering me - the Stardrake being able to hold stuff up and move around so quickly helps a lot, but would I be better served going for more damage to alleviate the need for said tank? Difficult to say. 

I think the list as-is can do fairly well at a GT-level (i.e. aiming for a solid 3-2, maybe 4-1 with good matchups) but it does feel just a tad lacking. I really noticed the damage drop-off when the Fulminators weren't charging things, especially if they got counter-punched, but that probably more speaks to just how powerful Fulminators are at the moment. The other issue is the wizard problem; I'd love a beefy two-caster like Krondys to get some Mystic Shield and Frostheart-synergy going, but outside of the big (and very expensive) dragon there's not many units that really tick that box. Giving the Arcane Tome to the Phoenix is probably the right move, as is dropping the Stardrake, but I'm just not sure what I can change up is going to be better. I'm also debating running Hunters of the Heartlands for the Fulminators, as losing out on a +1 to-hit or save on those key turns can make such a big difference, but I do feel this kind of army wants to stay as low-drop as possible. Lastly, while the best part about Living City is its flexibility and ability to choose its fights, I really need to identify when to ambush the Sisters/Fulminators together (having the Sisters to clear screens for the Fulminators, or help them focus a hard target down, helps a tonne) and when to split them up, as it's definitely a problem when the Sisters get stuck shuffling 6+D6" across the field to try and setup their double-tap in subsequent turns.

In any case, sorry for the ramblings 😅 hopefully some of this is useful for anyone else playing Living City and going through the same Aelf/Stormcast blitz I am! 

Edited by Jaskier
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On 12/5/2021 at 4:57 AM, Jaskier said:

A few things stand out immediately after finally getting a chance to put the list through its paces.
#1 is that the Sisters are very immobile with just a 24" effective threat range but only double-tapping if they sit still (18" in that case.) Ambushing them on a 'safe' flank means they won't get mobbed, but it also leaves them with little to do in the one-two turns that they have to reposition. In that sense, I'm glad they're Sisters and not Irondrakes as it would be even more of an issue.

I take 30 in my list and they do all the work.  I love them.  love love love them.  They aren't necessarily strictly immobile but I found that I had to move them and ideally with shorter deployment you do want them immobile 4/5 turns.  

But I'm likely more casual than you.  My most recent game was the local tournament dominator and he commented how effective the 30 is.  what I think you do need is some onion layers for your opponent to peel away.  And chaff is tricky in CoS.

 

But great write-up :)

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3 hours ago, Popisdead said:

I take 30 in my list and they do all the work.  I love them.  love love love them.  They aren't necessarily strictly immobile but I found that I had to move them and ideally with shorter deployment you do want them immobile 4/5 turns.  

But I'm likely more casual than you.  My most recent game was the local tournament dominator and he commented how effective the 30 is.  what I think you do need is some onion layers for your opponent to peel away.  And chaff is tricky in CoS.

 

But great write-up :)

Thanks mate! 

I do really like them so far; they are very strong, especially as the only buff they need is +1 to-hit. The mobility issue shouldn't be as big a problem for me if I have less units requiring the StFA command; I can use the Nomad Prince to get around the 'receive one command' limitation as his command is an aura, allowing the Sisters to get +1 to-hit and then use StFA on themselves.

I'm strongly considering the extra 10 for a block of 30 but I'd need to run a Nomad Prince as my general to do that, which on reflection wouldn't be a terrible choice at all (can cut a Dreadspear unit then.) Pending the expected points changes to Fulminators hopefully being balanced out by drops elsewhere, I'm considering swapping the Stardrake, Sorceress and 10 Dreadspears out for the Celestant Prime, Nomad Prince and 10 extra Sisters. The Prince wouldn't even need to go with the Sisters in that scenario as there's nothing else I'd need the +1 to-hit for. Any spare points would go to a chaff unit (ideally Tree Revenants) to satisfy the Stormcasts 1 in 4 limitations, but it's all dependent on points changes on whether I can fit it all in. 

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