AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[Popisdead]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

So artefacts in Living City is actually something that needs some discussion. Ours are pretty weak so the Ghyran Realm artefacts become quite appealing. Here are some of my personal favorite options available to us. 

1) Wardroth Horn. If you are taking Kurnoth Hunters then this item is the default choice. +1 Attack on those guys at just the right time is insanely good.

2) Spear of the Hunt is decent, at it basically gives you the ability to fight with two units first in the combat phase. This needs to be on a particularly strong melee character to be worth anything tho. (Dreadlord, mounted Phoenix, etc)

3) Ghyrstrike is always solid if you have a unit with a few high powered attacks. 

4) Wand of Restoration - This is fun on any tanky character. Stacks well with our free heal for 2 wounds per turn (or 2D3+2 on Stank commanders!)

5) Greenglade Flask - A surprise 1d6 heal on a mounted Fire Phoenix or Hurricanum can be useful.

6) Entangling Blade - Seems pretty meh at first glance but anything that can reliably produce -1 to hit is useful.  This can be particularly scary on Nomad Princes since you can potentially give a major character -2 to hit.

Aren't there gauntlets for a 6" pile-in?  I'm not good enough in the game to see how on a hero it would work cause you have to charge, unless you double charge, wipe out the screen and pile in with the hero to the juicy unit behind?  I know a Doombull with the Mutating Gnarlblade and Hungering Warherd Battalion with 6 Bullgors can do the same since that hero can do up to 15 dmg without horns or MWs taken into account.  You just want the reverse I guess?  Something to kill the screen so the 6" pile-in hero can tag something behind.

The Spear of the Hunt is good also on a Griffon Freeguild hero along with that Ironoak Artisan.  I'm thinking about looking for a cheap Skycutter Chariot to proxy as an Aelf version.

If you take Hunters you would want that item along with an Arch Rev.  5A Scythes would decimate 😍

The Engtangling Blade with Geminids and a Hysh? wizard for really stacking negatives to hit could tie something up nicely too   I keep hearing Gemenids are the best least-taken Endless spell.  They do seem good indeed.

[Landohammer]

On 5/29/2020 at 1:47 PM, Popisdead said:

Aren't there gauntlets for a 6" pile-in?  I'm not good enough in the game to see how on a hero it would work cause you have to charge, unless you double charge, wipe out the screen and pile in with the hero to the juicy unit behind?  I know a Doombull with the Mutating Gnarlblade and Hungering Warherd Battalion with 6 Bullgors can do the same since that hero can do up to 15 dmg without horns or MWs taken into account.  You just want the reverse I guess?  Something to kill the screen so the 6" pile-in hero can tag something behind.

The Spear of the Hunt is good also on a Griffon Freeguild hero along with that Ironoak Artisan.  I'm thinking about looking for a cheap Skycutter Chariot to proxy as an Aelf version.

If you take Hunters you would want that item along with an Arch Rev.  5A Scythes would decimate 😍

The Engtangling Blade with Geminids and a Hysh? wizard for really stacking negatives to hit could tie something up nicely too   I keep hearing Gemenids are the best least-taken Endless spell.  They do seem good indeed.

I think Geminids are absolutely solid. They are one of the only spells that can simultaneously debuff two separate units while also dealing decent MW damage. They also have a pretty large footprint for trapping/blocking units from moving. Personally they are my default choice if I had to pick a single endless spell. 

The reason they aren't more popular is because they can end up wrecking your army just as often as they wreck your opponents lol. 

Also they are in a really competitive point cost. Aethervoid pendulum, Lifeswarm, and Spellportal are all about the same cost and much safer. 

[The Red King]

Okay so I'm painting up a list for maybe a tournament in October and I'm a little torn on some small but significant changes to the main list.

 

The list is as below.

Alarielle (probably summoning hunters but maybe dryads if I need a screen?) W/ironoak skin

Nomad prince

Knight azyros

Battlemage (probably hysh to protect Alarielle?) W/lifesurge

Sorceress w/cage of thorns

 

20 sisters of the watch

10 dreadspears

20 eternal guard/wyldwood rangers

5 sisters of the thorn w/lifesurge maybe?

 

10 shadow warriors

 

Emerald lifeswarm

Soulsnare shackles

 

OR

 

Alarielle 

Nomad prince

Knight Azyros

Battlemage

Sorceress

 

30 SotW

20 eternal guard/WWR

10 dreadspears

 

10 shadow warriors

 

Emerald lifeswarm

 

 

So as you can see its between a more defensive option with SotT supporting a block of eternal guard and having access to soulsnare shackles (or possibly shards of valagharr) for slowing the enemy down.

Or a more aggressive list using a full block of SotW by dropping the SotT and shackles. In this instance I'd probably drop the eternal guard for WWR though I'm not entirely sure if even the more "defensive" list wouldn't be better off with rangers over guard.

 

I'm also not entirely sure the optimal spread of spells for all those casters. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated as it will help me prioritize what gets paint as I'm a pretty slow painter.

[Landohammer]

20 hours ago, The Red King said:

Okay so I'm painting up a list for maybe a tournament in October and I'm a little torn on some small but significant changes to the main list.

 

 

So as you can see its between a more defensive option with SotT supporting a block of eternal guard and having access to soulsnare shackles (or possibly shards of valagharr) for slowing the enemy down.

Or a more aggressive list using a full block of SotW by dropping the SotT and shackles. In this instance I'd probably drop the eternal guard for WWR though I'm not entirely sure if even the more "defensive" list wouldn't be better off with rangers over guard.

 

I'm also not entirely sure the optimal spread of spells for all those casters. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated as it will help me prioritize what gets paint as I'm a pretty slow painter.

Couple of quick points.

-I like any list with 30 Sisters of the Watch. They are really good with a Nomad Prince. So that is a good start for sure.

-I think you are over-invested in characters. You have ~1000pts in characters and 7 casts. I don't think that is necessary in Living City. If you are going to bring Alarielle then you should probably limit yourself to just 1 other character (nomad prince). You have Sisters of the Thorn for backup wizards. 

-You dont' have enough blocks to hold objectives. The summoned Hunters and 20 Eternal Guard are decent units, but they aren't enough to take/defend multiple objectives. Any army with two large blocks of troops is going to be able to easily counter your army.  

-If you are going to field wyldwood rangers they need to be in a block of 30. Their primary strength is their 2" weapons so they can attack in 3 ranks. 

-Shadow Warriors aren't terribly appealing in a Living City army since half your army already deepstrikes.

Here is a rough list

Alarielle

Nomad Prince

30 Sisters of the Watch

 30 Wildwood Rangers

5 Sisters of the Thorn

3 Kurnoth Hunters (Swords)

Emerald Lifeswarm

 

[The Red King]

Though I see what you're saying in characters and worry I'm over investing in the sorceress/dreadspears they do at least provide a backfield camper. I unfortunately don't own 30 rangers or else I would whole heartedly agree.

I like the shadow warriors because unlike the rest of the army they don't have to deep strike on the board edge and they can force my opponent to sit back on objectives he could otherwise abandon.

As for the Azyros, which you didn't mention specifically but falls under the character bit, I had originally spent 50 on a cp but realized I was always using it for RR 1's in the opening salvo from the sisters so as long as the knight let's me RR twice (opening shots and when they get charged) he pays for himself even if he does nothing else and dies immediately (which doesn't normally happen.)

 

I don't mean to sound combative but your proposed list seems less capable of holding objectives, which is definitely  a legitimate concern of my list as well, due to the sheer number of bodies (and concentrating them into big blocks) so if I'm missing something there please let me know.

 

I'm going to keep fiddling and see if I cant squeeze in 10 more sisters though. Thank you again for the response btw 

Edited June 4, 2020 by The Red King

[Popisdead]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

-If you are going to field wyldwood rangers they need to be in a block of 30. Their primary strength is their 2" weapons so they can attack in 3 ranks. 

What do you think of 10-man Rangers in 3,4,3 formation?  Little 10-man missiles to launch around.  Unless you are thinking of Emerald Lifeswarm to keep them alive?  A buddy used to run 3,3,3,1 for White Lions in 8th in this way and I was thinking about how to use small man units more effective.  Only cause Rangers don't have as good as save as EG so I"m unsure about a large block.

@The Red King Not sure if you are aware but Alarielle is a named character so you cannot give her magic items.  Also only EG are BL if your general is a Nomad Prince (who unlocks the rest of Wanderers as BL).  Just in case you weren't aware, and I didn't see it clear in your post.

[The Red King]

17 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

What do you think of 10-man Rangers in 3,4,3 formation?  Little 10-man missiles to launch around.  Unless you are thinking of Emerald Lifeswarm to keep them alive?  A buddy used to run 3,3,3,1 for White Lions in 8th in this way and I was thinking about how to use small man units more effective.  Only cause Rangers don't have as good as save as EG so I"m unsure about a large block.

@The Red King Not sure if you are aware but Alarielle is a named character so you cannot give her magic items.  Also only EG are BL if your general is a Nomad Prince (who unlocks the rest of Wanderers as BL).  Just in case you weren't aware, and I didn't see it clear in your post.

Sorry it wasn't clear but yeah the Prince is the General and Alarielle doesn't have any magic items. Ironoak skin is the LC spell. 

 

On an unrelated note how do we feel about EG? They can get up to a 2+ save if they dont move (easy to do when they're charged because it says turn not round or whatever) but I'm just not sure if it's realistic to rely on their not needing to move and getting off the SotT spell on them.

Edited June 4, 2020 by The Red King

[Landohammer]

2 hours ago, The Red King said:

Though I see what you're saying in characters and worry I'm over investing in the sorceress/dreadspears they do at least provide a backfield camper. I unfortunately don't own 30 rangers or else I would whole heartedly agree.

Nothing wrong with Dreadspears for cheap battleline, but if you are paying for battleline unlocks with a Nomad general then you should try to stick to Wanderer battleline options.  Also I find Darkshards to be better campers since they can at least contribute from the backfield  to some extent.

I like the shadow warriors because unlike the rest of the army they don't have to deep strike on the board edge and they can force my opponent to sit back on objectives he could otherwise abandon.

Thats normally a solid plan but given Alarielle's mobility plus half your army deepstriking, I just don't see reaching those objectives being a problem. 

As for the Azyros, which you didn't mention specifically but falls under the character bit, I had originally spent 50 on a cp but realized I was always using it for RR 1's in the opening salvo from the sisters so as long as the knight let's me RR twice (opening shots and when they get charged) he pays for himself even if he does nothing else and dies immediately (which doesn't normally happen.)

The Azyros is solid, no doubt. But the Sisters plus the Nomad prince don't really need any more investment. They are already expensive. More bodies would help the list more.  

I don't mean to sound combative but your proposed list seems less capable of holding objectives, which is definitely  a legitimate concern of my list as well, due to the sheer number of bodies (and concentrating them into big blocks) so if I'm missing something there please let me know.

So here is the hard question: Is Alarielle really competitive in Living City? Now don't get me wrong, I love the model and have fielded Alarielle in countless tournaments as part of my Sylvaneth army, but she is specifically built to buff Sylvaneth. Notice that her command ability and AOE heal only buff Sylvaneth units. Also, she is a lot more potent with Glade buffs like double fight, exploding 6s, teleports and Throne of Vines. And of course she is too big to be deepstriked in Living City. 

So at the end of the day, including a 600pt character in a list with 420pts invested in a single shooting unit (plus 220 pts of characters to support that unit) reaaaaly limits what the list can do. 

Consider this: She is flat-out better in Sylvaneth lists, yet still remains relatively unpopular in those lists. So fielding her in Living City should be viewed as mostly a fluff choice. 

I'm going to keep fiddling and see if I cant squeeze in 10 more sisters though. Thank you again for the response btw 

No problem. I wish Sisters/SW models were cheaper. A unit of 30 will break the bank

See above in red! 

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

What do you think of 10-man Rangers in 3,4,3 formation?  Little 10-man missiles to launch around.  Unless you are thinking of Emerald Lifeswarm to keep them alive?  A buddy used to run 3,3,3,1 for White Lions in 8th in this way and I was thinking about how to use small man units more effective.  Only cause Rangers don't have as good as save as EG so I"m unsure about a large block.

@The Red King Not sure if you are aware but Alarielle is a named character so you cannot give her magic items.  Also only EG are BL if your general is a Nomad Prince (who unlocks the rest of Wanderers as BL).  Just in case you weren't aware, and I didn't see it clear in your post.

I would never field 10 man ranger units unless I was just trying to be silly and bring the LC battalion. 

Rangers are meant to be monster killers and 10 Rangers aren't going to kill any monsters that I am aware of. There are a lot better options for cheap (ish) battleline in Cities. 

The "dart" idea worked back in 8th because pile-ins didn't exist. Having 3 guys in front was a cheeky method of mitigating return attacks on a unit that was Stubborn (not likely to break).

It MIGHT have some value on super tanky units like Ironbreakers or Longbeards with shields that tag the corner of a large horde. But Rangers would not be a good candidate IMHO.

 

 

[The Red King]

I agree on darkshards but I found sometimes I needed the 10 points and so I built/converted spears and that's what I have. In the future I may build 10 shards as well for whenever the points are available.

I find the deepstriking of living city to be very limited due to the edge of the table clause. It's great for getting an alpha strike into position but it doesn't force your opponent to make decisions about where to move later into the game. Maybe the shadow warriors are a bit much of an investment but at least in DoK it's viable to bring a 90 point unit of heartstrikers or whatever just to play mind games with your opponent.

The Azyros luckily doesn't only buff those units though. The free rerolls in every phase of the game for as long as he lives just feels really cost effective. 

Yes the matter of whether Alarielle is even worth fielding is probably the crux of the whole list to be honest and I don't think I can yet definitively answer that question. I like the flexibility she brings with the ability to summon a screen of dryads or a hammer rod hunters or even more deep strikers with the revanants, and the further investments while heavy should see her with a -1 to be hit/wounded, our CA provides her some exceptional mobility for turn 1 charges (rarely recommended) or objective grabbing, and between lifesurge, lifeswarm, her own passive and the cities passive she's healing up to 2d6+2 (average 9 wounds) a turn. I don't know that that makes her worth it, but it's certainly something I want to test.

 

Yeah sisters are good but with the power creep I dont think they're 160 good. Maybe just a discount at fulllsize?

[Landohammer]

2 hours ago, The Red King said:

 

 

Yeah sisters are good but with the power creep I dont think they're 160 good. Maybe just a discount at fulllsize?

I was referring to their actual monetary cost. I think they are priced appropriately in points. Note that Irondrakes are extremely popular for a similar cost, but don't do mortal wounds or get a Stand and Shoot.

 

[The Red King]

Ahhh I lucked out and got all 50 of mine on ebay pretty cheap so I didn't know.

 

And they're priced appropriately in our book but not against other books imo.

[readercolin]

2 hours ago, The Red King said:

Ahhh I lucked out and got all 50 of mine on ebay pretty cheap so I didn't know.

 

And they're priced appropriately in our book but not against other books imo.

I mean, if you are looking at damage output for the points, all of Cities shooting is undercosted compared to other books.

Lets take sisters of the watch as a point of comparison.  They have an 18" range, cost 160 points, and do an average of 6.11 damage before saves if they move, or 11.67 if they stand and shoot.  So what is their competition?

In stormcast, we have judicators with bows.  For the exact same points, they add 6" to their range, can deepstrike if they are in stormcast, and will do an average of (drumroll please)... 3.72 damage before saves, with 1.92 of that solely on the judicator prime with a stormbolt bow.  Like, seriously, sisters outshoot judicators by ~65% if they move, and do slightly over 3x the damage if they stand still.  And some people complain that judicators are overpowered too...

Next, lets look at the heart of shootcast - Vanguard Raptors.  A unit of 3 vanguard raptors with Longstrikes come in at 170 points and clock in at... 3.67 damage on average before saves?  Wait, really?  Even less than judicators?  I mean, against a 4+ save, things get a bit better for them, as they are still doing 3.22 damage on average vs judicators 2.48, but sisters are still dumping out 3.67 damage if they move, or 7 if they don't to a 4+ save.  Admittedly, longstrikes do have a bit more range, but this still isn't looking favorable for them at all.

Lets see then, who else is well known for shooting?  How about Kharadron Overlords?  Keeping things in the same general ballpark, lets go ahead and look at a unit of grundstock thunderers.  A unit of 5 of these guys will push out an average of 4 damage before saves.  Considering sisters cost 160 to the thunderers 120, lets just add 1/3 to their damage to get the equivalent point cost.  And this leaves us with... 5.33 damage before saves.  Wow, this really isn't looking good for the competition, is it?

Ok, clearly cities have no equal amongst the order armies, so where else might there be competition?  How about the other big shooting force - Tzeentch.  Take a squad of flamers.  If they are attacking something with less than 10 models and no other buffs, they are going to put out an average of 6.67 damage before saves.  10-19 models?  Bump that up to 8.9.  20+?  We're up to 11.11 damage before saves.  And this on a unit that costs 120 points.  There we have it, the one unit that can compete with cities on a cost basis.  And they even have a way to teleport a squad of these guys without needing to cast a spell to blow stuff up too.

As for the only other significant shooting force, there is the skaven.  And let me be honest - I really don't know how the skaven work, or what their best shooting units are, so I'm going to skip on making any comparisons there (also, the few battle reports I've seen with them tend to include lots of effects that lead to lots of exploding).

Realistically though, what I've found by doing this comparison is that there really isn't much shooting available amongst the armies.  I was really expecting more.  But since the armies that I have are Stormcast, Cities, Slaves to Darkness, Kharadron Overlords, and a few sylvaneth... I guess my view has been a bit skewed.

[Popisdead]

On 6/4/2020 at 6:49 AM, The Red King said:

On an unrelated note how do we feel about EG? They can get up to a 2+ save if they dont move (easy to do when they're charged because it says turn not round or whatever) but I'm just not sure if it's realistic to rely on their not needing to move and getting off the SotT spell on them.

Personally I like them but I own 30 metal ones from 2005 and 20 are painted.  So,.. guess what infantry spear elf unit from CoS I'm using 😉  They are good,  a price drop would be nice only cause internal balance (and tournament lists)0o9u8o90p-90 shows there are better options.  It will just be hard to get 30 off an objective and they can have some surprisingly good output.  I'm a wanderer player using CoS not a CoS player looking to build a list.

22 hours ago, Landohammer said:

I would never field 10 man ranger units unless I was just trying to be silly and bring the LC battalion. 

Rangers are meant to be monster killers and 10 Rangers aren't going to kill any monsters that I am aware of. There are a lot better options for cheap (ish) battleline in Cities. 

Thanks kindly.  I have 20 (and a load of Wardancers that I was thinking of proxying).

22 hours ago, The Red King said:

I find the deepstriking of living city to be very limited due to the edge of the table clause. It's great for getting an alpha strike into position but it doesn't force your opponent to make decisions about where to move later into the game.

Yes the matter of whether Alarielle is even worth fielding is probably the crux of the whole list to be honest and I don't think I can yet definitively answer that question. I like the flexibility she brings with the ability to summon a screen of dryads or a hammer rod hunters or even more deep strikers with the revanants, and the further investments while heavy should see her with a -1 to be hit/wounded, our CA provides her some exceptional mobility for turn 1 charges (rarely recommended) or objective grabbing, and between lifesurge, lifeswarm, her own passive and the cities passive she's healing up to 2d6+2 (average 9 wounds) a turn. I don't know that that makes her worth it, but it's certainly something I want to test.

Yeah sisters are good but with the power creep I dont think they're 160 good. Maybe just a discount at fulllsize?

What you might find is the Deep Striking forcers your opponent to make mistakes or not be as aggressive.  Plus range, I've dropped 10 SotW and 20 SWs and removed a massive block of DE crossbow threat.  With terrain I was also able to keep both units from being easy targets to pick off though that isn't always the case.  IIRC you don't need to drop the units in first turn do you?

Someone, several pages back, detailed LC key points.  I cannot remember who and you have to search slowly as he used Hidden Contents for his explanations.  Key points are DS shenanigans to throw your opponent off and a strong melee threat.  I recommend reading it.  

Alarielle is a good warscroll to look at for LC.  I guess you can't put the Gryphfeather charm on a Hurricanum to keep up with her can you?  I struggle with anything 4+ on few attacks.  Dice Spiking can punish you hard.  If there was a way to make her attacks more reliable and she came with a Damage Prevention Roll then she would be better.  Ignoring the 200 points summoning, is she worth 400 points?  Sort of.  If her beetles attacks were 3+ and +1 vs Hordes I would have way more incentive to field her.

AoS has stagnated a bit as there are two armies on the queue, SotW could be really good vs Sons of Behemat, could be good vs Mountain Cows of Lumineth, and MW output is good vs, I think it is Petrifex Guard?  something 3+ re rollable in new Bonereapers.  

19 hours ago, The Red King said:

Ahhh I lucked out and got all 50 of mine on ebay pretty cheap so I didn't know.

Wow.  Nice.  IMO try 5x10.  That level of Alpha shooting could scar some casual competitive people for life haha.  I have 10, 20 Waywatchers, 20-30 GG.  I'm converting them over cause I keep joking with a local top tier tournament winner that spamming SotW solves most problems

 

[Popisdead]

On 6/4/2020 at 8:37 AM, Landohammer said:

Rangers are meant to be monster killers and 10 Rangers aren't going to kill any monsters that I am aware of.

To be pedantic, what about a Ghorgon?   

[Landohammer]

35 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

To be pedantic, what about a Ghorgon?   

Yea I did the math and apparently 10 Rangers can kill a Ghorgon plus 1 wound. So thats not actually bad.  But to be fair the Ghorgon could also wipe the unit out if it activated first. 

I mean a unit of 10 could conceivably have a role as a "monster crippling" unit, since they average 12 wounds vs a 4+ save and 9 wounds vs a 3+ save. Thats pretty significant since many monsters degrade quickly.

But to be honest I would rather just go ahead and take 20 and virtually guarantee I kill  any behemoth I reach. If I am going to pay for the battleline unlock with a Nomad prince and burn one of my deepstrike slots, I want the unit to be good at its job. 

[Popisdead]

3 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Yea I did the math and apparently 10 Rangers can kill a Ghorgon plus 1 wound. So thats not actually bad.  But to be fair the Ghorgon could also wipe the unit out if it activated first. 

Oh haha no no I love your advice; I was being a smart ass after I mathed it out.  

Thanks for the tip about a 20-man for Rangers.   Do you usually DS Rangers?  What about pairing with a Nomad Prince or more?  I'm finding,.. buffs for Wanderers are pricey and tricky.  I want bodies on the table and LC rewards multi-wound over lots of support heroes.  

[KydbrookP]

First, thanks everyone for the great ideas and analysis in this discussion - really helpful to a new player (well, actually a quite old WFB player).

I’m building a living city army, based on old models I have, others I like, and ideas here esp from swarmofseals (love the maths).

Thinking of this list (*=things I already have)

LEADERS:

*Dreadlord on Black Dragon (general) (300)

Crossbow, Lance

Ironoak Artisan

Spear of the Hunt

 

*Celestial Hurricanum with battlemage (280)

Lifesurge

 

Battlemage Hysh (90)

Chain of Thorns

 

Arch-Reverent (100)

 

BATTLELINE

*10 x Handgunners (100)

10 x Handgunners (100)

*10 x Crossbowmen (100)

 

OTHER

10 x SotW (160)

*10 x Shadow Warriors (110)

5 x Freeguild Outriders (100)

1 x Scourgerunner Chariot (60)

3 x Kurnoth Hunters with Swords (200)

3 x Kurnoth Hunters with Bows (200)

 

Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

Extra Command Point (50)

 

I have very little battle experience, only playing against my 9yo in lockdown, but basic ideas in theory are:

After buffing shooting units in T1, the Hurricanum has option of rolling forward into the thick of things with Kurnoth Hunters as bodyguard

Dreadlord is distraction - would double move and charge in T1, perhaps with Shadow Warriors, to be disruptive.

Lots of small shooting units with give lots of options and ability to put just the right amount of damage where it matters

KH with bows I know aren’t popular, but I though with 30” range and buffed by Arch-Revenant and Hurricanum, they and the Marksmen can take out support heroes or soften up something big for the Dreadlord

Chariot, Outriders and KH with bows can all use shoot and move to get to an objective or get in the way of something important

When Dreadlord dies, Arch-Rev becomes general and gets Druid trait probably for an extra spellcaster.

 

Any suggestions /issues I should think about? As I say I’ve very little practical experience!

Edited June 6, 2020 by KydbrookP
Added points to list

[Popisdead]

So thinking about a nearly all Wanderer LC, just to make use of as many Wanderer models instead of my Sylvaneth and dragons, and phoenixes.  .

NP - General, Ironoak and spear (I quite like this guy in combat supporting)

Sorceress (adjutant)

10 Darkshards (Retinue)

10 Wildriders 

20 Rangers

20 EG

5 SotT

4 x 10 SotW (ambush) (or 2 x 20)

Lifeswarm

balewind (or palisades maybe makes more sense).  

Command point -2k

I love my Wanderers a lot and I feel you can slightly shift this list up a bit (2 x 20 SotW) and make it Tempest Eye and it could work decently.  

Edited June 8, 2020 by Popisdead

[Landohammer]

On 6/5/2020 at 4:04 PM, Popisdead said:

Oh haha no no I love your advice; I was being a smart ass after I mathed it out.  

Thanks for the tip about a 20-man for Rangers.   Do you usually DS Rangers?  What about pairing with a Nomad Prince or more?  I'm finding,.. buffs for Wanderers are pricey and tricky.  I want bodies on the table and LC rewards multi-wound over lots of support heroes.  

A ranger unit is perfectly fine for deepstriking. I would just make sure I had a character nearby to provide charge rerolls. And I would make sure the Ranger unit is large enough to kill whatever its charging. 

4 hours ago, Popisdead said:

So thinking about a nearly all Wanderer LC, just to make use of as many Wanderer models instead of my Sylvaneth and dragons, and phoenixes.  .

NP - General, Ironoak and spear (I quite like this guy in combat supporting)

Sorceress (adjutant)

10 Darkshards (Retinue)

10 Wildriders 

20 Rangers

20 EG

5 SotT

4 x 10 SotW (ambush)

Lifeswarm

balewind (or palisades maybe makes more sense).  

Command point -2k

I love my Wanderers a lot and I feel you can slightly shift this list up a bit (2 x 20 SotW) and make it Tempest Eye and it could work decently.  

Looks like a solid list to me! I wouldn't expect the Wildriders to do much though. I would almost just prefer more Sisters of the Watch! 

[swarmofseals]

On 6/6/2020 at 5:49 AM, KydbrookP said:

After buffing shooting units in T1, the Hurricanum has option of rolling forward into the thick of things with Kurnoth Hunters as bodyguard

 

Lots of small shooting units with give lots of options and ability to put just the right amount of damage where it matters

KH with bows I know aren’t popular, but I though with 30” range and buffed by Arch-Revenant and Hurricanum, they and the Marksmen can take out support heroes or soften up something big for the Dreadlord

When Dreadlord dies, Arch-Rev becomes general and gets Druid trait probably for an extra spellcaster.

 

Any suggestions /issues I should think about? As I say I’ve very little practical experience!

If you're talking about purely casual play then the only thing you should know is that in matched play you don't get a new general when your current one dies.

If you're looking at a more competitive level, I think there are a couple of things to consider. While you do have a fair number of small shooting units they aren't really going to put out that much damage. There's enough to be an annoyance but not enough to really exert that much force on the flow of the game, especially once they aren't covered by the hurricanum. Kurnoths with bows are just really inefficient unfortunately, even when buffed by the Arch-Revenant (which doesn't increase their attacks btw,). They really aren't going to be that good for taking out support heroes either, as they will likely be hitting on 4's even with hurricanum.

You definitely don't want the hurricanum to be in the thick of things. It will die quickly, and a single unit of 3 Kurnoth Hunters will not be able to protect it very well. They can only cover maybe a third to a half of the hurricanum's base at best, so any opponent who wants to get into the hurricanum won't really have much of a problem in doing so.

I think that lists either need to be very heavy shooting or mostly combat with some shooting support. Going halfway on both would only work well if you could make everything efficient, but unfortunately a lot of the things in the list aren't that efficient. Couple that with very little redundancy in key roles and I think you'll find the list to be very fragile in the face of serious opponents.

[Popisdead]

16 hours ago, Landohammer said:

A ranger unit is perfectly fine for deepstriking. I would just make sure I had a character nearby to provide charge rerolls. And I would make sure the Ranger unit is large enough to kill whatever its charging. 

Looks like a solid list to me! I wouldn't expect the Wildriders to do much though. I would almost just prefer more Sisters of the Watch! 

I think I would want Cogs to DS the Rangers to have +3 to the charge if I was going to deepstrike them.  Good point on the supporting character.  Might be a descent option for popping an assassin out also.

Wildriders are pretty good no?.  -2 and dmg 2 on the charge.  They've done well when I used them.  But the 4+ to-wound is swingy.  I just wish there was a way to boost their to-wound mechanic.   Plus 2" reach so the front 5 can be sideways and the back 5 can still have the riders attack.  They are close to their 8th ed potential, not at it, but closer.  60 SotW would be,.. hilarious though... hahha.  I think I have the models to try that.

There was a Time of Legends series in 8th and one was about the Elves.  In the prologue to the second or 3rd novel they talked about the genesis of Athel Loren with a mix of HE and DE troopers tired of the civil war and looking to escape.  I had some DE bitz floating around so I built some more Wildriders up.

I attached one I painted up last night.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Popisdead

[readercolin]

1 hour ago, Popisdead said:

I think I would want Cogs to DS the Rangers to have +3 to the charge if I was going to deepstrike them.  Good point on the supporting character.  Might be a descent option for popping an assassin out also.

Wildriders are pretty good no?.  -2 and dmg 2 on the charge.  They've done well when I used them.  But the 4+ to-wound is swingy.  I just wish there was a way to boost their to-wound mechanic.   Plus 2" reach so the front 5 can be sideways and the back 5 can still have the riders attack.  They are close to their 8th ed potential, not at it, but closer.  60 SotW would be,.. hilarious though... hahha.  I think I have the models to try that.

First, on the assassin.  Take a look at when he is able to pop out.  If you deepstrike him with the living city rules, then yeah, you can use him to give your unit re-roll charges.  However, he isn't going to be on the battlefield in the charge phase if you do it using his warscroll ability.

As for the wildriders, the problem with them is that they are so swingy - especially in units of 5.  In units of 10, they are a bit more consistent (provided that you can get all of them into contact).  Keep in mind that their spears have a 1/3 chance to successfully wound, and with 11 attacks that is a good bit less consistent than with 21 attacks.  So I would say - go ahead and run them, but make sure you keep track of how they actually do for you, because you can expect that for some engagements they are going to spike hard, while others they are going to fluff badly.

Edited June 9, 2020 by readercolin
clarification on assassin rules

[Popisdead]

3 hours ago, readercolin said:

First, on the assassin.  Take a look at when he is able to pop out.  If you deepstrike him with the living city rules, then yeah, you can use him to give your unit re-roll charges.  However, he isn't going to be on the battlefield in the charge phase if you do it using his warscroll ability.

So unless I'm missing something, you can DS the Rangers, they charge and hit something.  Then at the start of combat pop the assassin out.   Is that the correct order?

  

One thing I never noticed is the Hurricanum has a shooting attack so in LC it can move twice.  Meaning you can get it 20" up the flank for a command point.  While it's a risky threat that exposes it, if you dropped your SotW or Rangers it adds to reliability to their attacks.  

[KydbrookP]

On 6/9/2020 at 5:21 AM, swarmofseals said:

I think that lists either need to be very heavy shooting or mostly combat with some shooting support. Going halfway on both would only work well if you could make everything efficient, but unfortunately a lot of the things in the list aren't that efficient. Couple that with very little redundancy in key roles and I think you'll find the list to be very fragile in the face of serious opponents.

Thanks so much for the response, really appreciated. Thinking this over, reckon I'll go heavier on crossbows and give them a freeguild general to buff (I think I prefer them to SotW because of range). In terms of combat, what do you find most efficient? I love the KH models, so could lose the bows and take six of them with Swords/Scythes, but am I hamstringing myself by not taking units that can shoot and move twice, like Desolators and Fulminators?

In terms of getting Hurricanum into the thick of it, I was thinking, as Popisdead just mentioned, of perhaps using a command point to move twice, so it could buff shooting units in that phase, then rush up to buff units fighting on objectives, like KH with swords (who could potentially have 6 attacks each with Wardroth Horn and Arch-R, hitting 2+ re-rolling 1s). It would be very vulnerable, but I imagine the KH would attract more incoming.