AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[Aelfric]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

So  yeah, I think that Alarielle should be at least casual-competitive viable and might actually be fully competitive viable. 

I don't think Alarielle can use the hidden paths as her base is more than 6 inches so can't fit within the drop restrictions.  But with her movement, you could run her straight up the board anyway.

[amsoly]

22 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I don't think Alarielle can use the hidden paths as her base is more than 6 inches so can't fit within the drop restrictions.  But with her movement, you could run her straight up the board anyway.

Agreed. I edited my post above to note the RAW reading on that. Sadly just a limit of larger based models. 

[swarmofseals]

40 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I don't think Alarielle can use the hidden paths as her base is more than 6 inches so can't fit within the drop restrictions.  But with her movement, you could run her straight up the board anyway.

oof, didn't even think about that. The main motivation to deploying her off table would be to keep her away from shooting if your opponent takes the first turn, although that would only be relevant in fairly small number of matchups.

[Zeblasky]

Hey guys! Starting player here. For a long time I was sure that one day I would try playing WH40k and grind my enemies under trucks of my Leman Russes. But then TW:W and Wood Elves happened and now I'm here.

Although I initially started collecting with Wanderers in mind, I understand that a proper CoS army is best when it's a combination of different races. But money and logistics of getting most CoS models(I live in Russia) put certain restraints, so I don't have a liberty of getting every model I want. Still though, right now I've managed to come up with these setups for living City:
 

Quote

Wanderers 1000
Play Type: Matched | Game Type: Vanguard | Grand Alliance: Order | Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar Stronghold: Living City Realm of Battle: GHYRAN, The Realm of LIFE

Nomad Prince General 120pts
Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan

Dreadlord on Black Dragon 300pts
Artefact: Jade Diadem Weapon: Repeater Crossbow Weapon: Lance of Spite

Sisters of the Watch Quantity: 10 160pts

Sisters of the Watch Quantity: 10 160pts

Sisters of the Thorn Quantity: 5 Spell: Lifesurge 130pts

Sisters of the Thorn Quantity: 5 Spell: Lifesurge 130pts

 Total: 1000/1000pts

This is basic and somewhat weak build by the feel of it. I could have taken Durthu or Ancient Treelord(with may be Emerald Lifeswarm) here instead of dragon, but I feel like Dreadlord would be stronger here(feel free to correct me). The idea here is also rather simple - to deploy Prince, Dreadlord and 10 Sisters of the watch on the offensive/defensive flank, while protecting the other 10 Sisters with Sisters of Thorn.
 

Quote

Wanderers 1000 max compet
Play Type: Matched | Game Type: Vanguard | Grand Alliance: Order | Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar Stronghold: Living City Realm of Battle: GHYRAN, The Realm of LIFE

Nomad Prince General 120pts

Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan 

Dreadlord on Black Dragon 300pts
Artefact: Jade Diadem Weapon: Repeater Crossbow Weapon: Lance of Spite 

Sisters of the Thorn Quantity: 5 Spell: Lifesurge 130pts

Sisters of the Watch Quantity: 20

Scourgerunner Chariots Quantity: 1 60pts
Scourgerunner Chariots Quantity: 1 60pts
  Total: 990/1000pts

Same thing, only 1 less Sisters of Thorn and 2 more Scourgerunners. Flank deployment becomes more stronger with 20 Sisters instead of 10, and already deployed units are all shooty and highly mobile. The only problem is finding where to reasonably buy 2 chariots...

 

Quote

Wanderers with Wood Factory
Play Type: Matched | Game Type: Battlehost | Grand Alliance: Order | Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar Stronghold: Living City Realm of Battle: GHYRAN, The Realm of LIFE

Nomad Prince General 120pts
Command Trait: Ironoak Artisan

Treelord Ancient Artefact: Ghyrstrike Spell: Lifesurge 260pts

Branchwraith General's Adjutant Spell: Ironoak Skin 80pts   

 

Sisters of the Thorn Quantity: 5 Spell: Lifesurge 130pts

Sisters of the Thorn Quantity: 5 Spell: Ironoak Skin 130pts

Sisters of the Thorn Quantity: 5 Spell: Cage of Thorns 130pts

Eternal Guard Quantity: 10 130pts Honoured Retinue

Eternal Guard Quantity: 10 130pts

Sisters of the Watch Quantity: 20 320pts

Sisters of the Watch Quantity: 20 320pts

Wild Riders Quantity: 5 130pts
Gyrocopters Quantity: 1 70pts

Endless Spells
Emerald Lifeswarm 50pts

 Total: 2000/2000pts

This one is a bit unique. I have one flank deployment with 20 Sisters of the Watch and 10 Eternal Guard for their protection, while the other flank gets assaulted with 20 Sisters, branchwraith and Ancient Treelord charging in turn 1. After which treelord and branchwraith set up Dryad summoning factory. Then come in Sisters for magical support and Wild Riders to charge something, all with 12 move. Also an extra Gyro just to throw in versus any blobs. Only Nomad Prince and escort of 10 Eternal guard lag somewhat behind. May be I should drop EG for more gyros.

 

So, how those builds look? Which is good, which is bad, any advice on how to build or play those armies better?

[swarmofseals]

4 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

 advice on how to build or play those armies better?

This is really general advice, but I think that a lot of players over specify their plan when list building. Stuff like "units A and B will push the flank while units C and D hold the center" etc. 

These ideas might be reasonable, but it's much better to have a general understanding of what your units can do and be flexible about your plan. You need to respond to the layout of the table, your opponent's composition, their deployment and probable plan, and the objectives of the battleplan.

 

[Zeblasky]

3 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

This is really general advice, but I think that a lot of players over specify their plan when list building. Stuff like "units A and B will push the flank while units C and D hold the center" etc. 

These ideas might be reasonable, but it's much better to have a general understanding of what your units can do and be flexible about your plan. You need to respond to the layout of the table, your opponent's composition, their deployment and probable plan, and the objectives of the battleplan.

That is true, but I’m not sure that I would ever be better off with different initial deployment plan. But what is great about deep strike is that I can indeed be very flexible and adapt with half of my army after turn 1 begins. And I keep that in mind, as I can be very defensive or offensive at the same time.

[rockmanko]

On 12/25/2019 at 1:54 AM, Zeblasky said:

So, how those builds look? Which is good, which is bad, any advice on how to build or play those armies better?

Just one thing to point out:

"You cannot attempt to cast the same spell more than once in the same turn (even with a different wizard)."

So I doubted your choice on 3 units of SoT ...

[Zeblasky]

5 hours ago, rockmanko said:

Just one thing to point out:

"You cannot attempt to cast the same spell more than once in the same turn (even with a different wizard)."

So I doubted your choice on 3 units of SoT ...

Well, they can cast only once per turn and they have 3 basic spells plus 1 from the city. Even considering that I'm duplicating Lifesurge as a most important spell, I will have more than enough things to cast.

[Popisdead]

On 10/23/2019 at 6:05 AM, overtninja said:

Wild Riders seem real good, so long as you roll 4+ to wound well. Bouncing off things sucks hard, but they are absurd on the charge.

Sort of,.. threadomancy, old post but I wanted to ask if anyone was using them as BL since the Dec FAQ?

I feel 15+ isn't a bad idea.  They hit hard and mine have been effective in my games.  Just want something to keep up and offer some synergies and the general is a Nomad Prince.  

 

Also just realized a Knight of Azyros can keep up with him and I have converted my old Orion with Ariel's old butterfly wings so I even have a model to combo them and can keep up.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Popisdead

[overtninja]

17 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Sort of,.. threadomancy, old post but I wanted to ask if anyone was using them as BL since the Dec FAQ?

I feel 15+ isn't a bad idea.  They hit hard and mine have been effective in my games.  Just want something to keep up and offer some synergies and the general is a Nomad Prince.  

 

Also just realized a Knight of Azyros can keep up with him and I have converted my old Orion with Ariel's old butterfly wings so I even have a model to combo them and can keep up.

I haven't used them as BL, since I have all kinds of other Wanderers to pile in with them, but if I had more old metal wild riders to use I'd consider using 15. I really do like them, they are surprisingly durable and punchy, and their threat range is wide.

I think, given the 2019 GHB additions to generic command abilities, that anything that could fly or ride fast in CoS could potentially offer them the same buffs as a Knight-Azyros. I'm working on a Griffin anyway, so i'll cultivate that as an option. I do pine for a mounted Wanderers hero some day, though...

If i were to add more cavalry to my forces, I'd probably go with pistoliers - for 100 points their damage output is dumb stupid, and at that cost I don't mind using them to chump block or even suicide charge.

[Popisdead]

On 12/12/2019 at 10:32 AM, Tidings said:

For stronger shooting lists, just go TE. It's way better than Living city for a shooty army, and you have bonus protection from the catapults in the first turn too, since they struggle against armor.  

Hmm off to TE I go   I do like the buffs.  30 SotW on 2s/2s is deadly.  If only it was 6+ MW instead of Unmodified 6

[Cerve]

Personally, i disagree. I tried SotW yesterday, and deploying in every table edge when you prefer is stunning tactically. And you shoot twice with a range of 24", pretty difficult to avoid. TE bonusses are way worse than that.

[amsoly]

8 hours ago, Cerve said:

Personally, i disagree. I tried SotW yesterday, and deploying in every table edge when you prefer is stunning tactically. And you shoot twice with a range of 24", pretty difficult to avoid. TE bonusses are way worse than that.

Ive been running 2 10x sister units in my games and they definitely put out some damage. But they’re fragile!  Bravery 7 helps them stick around. 

[Cerve]

12 hours ago, amsoly said:

Ive been running 2 10x sister units in my games and they definitely put out some damage. But they’re fragile!  Bravery 7 helps them stick around. 

That's true, but I don't rely on them. I mean, I like her as distractions. They pop and shoot at weaker positions, clearing objectives and most of all forcing my opponent to come back facing them. What push me to belive that LF is secretly the best city overall it's because the mix between alpha/betastrike (basically, your units are always going to do some damage before dying) and the map control. You force your opponent to split all around the board (because you have to manage those sisters, or they are going to shoot you down every turn). It is the perfect guerrila style. Yes it has an high skillcap, but if you manage it it is the best city imho. 

[Orsino]

6 hours ago, Cerve said:

That's true, but I don't rely on them. I mean, I like her as distractions. They pop and shoot at weaker positions, clearing objectives and most of all forcing my opponent to come back facing them. What push me to belive that LF is secretly the best city overall it's because the mix between alpha/betastrike (basically, your units are always going to do some damage before dying) and the map control. You force your opponent to split all around the board (because you have to manage those sisters, or they are going to shoot you down every turn). It is the perfect guerrila style. Yes it has an high skillcap, but if you manage it it is the best city imho. 

Absolutely this. SotW can be really good when you use them well but their fragility makes them unforgiving. I recently played two games in the same evening, in the first the SotW deleted unit after unit my opponent sent in to take an objective. In the second game a good charge let my opponent get around my EG screen, I rolled badly on the Fire Until The Last attack, and the SotW were pretty much immediately wiped out without doing ****** all. 

[Tidings]

On 1/5/2020 at 11:05 AM, Cerve said:

Personally, i disagree. I tried SotW yesterday, and deploying in every table edge when you prefer is stunning tactically. And you shoot twice with a range of 24", pretty difficult to avoid. TE bonusses are way worse than that.

It can be awesome for sure, but I've found that at tournaments where your opponents will generally be good players, you'll often be screened out of range from shooting any meaningful target. If they don't screen you out then it's a great alpha strike, but the same goes for bridge. I love our flexibility and options

Also, how are you getting 24"? I'm confused there. 

Lastly, while Sisters are great, Irondrakes are more efficient in terms of both damage and durability per point. 

[adreal]

1 minute ago, Tidings said:

It can be awesome for sure, but I've found that at tournaments where your opponents will generally be good players, you'll often be screened out of range from shooting any meaningful target. If they don't screen you out then it's a great alpha strike, but the same goes for bridge. I love our flexibility and options

Also, how are you getting 24"? I'm confused there. 

Lastly, while Sisters are great, Irondrakes are more efficient in terms of both damage and durability per point. 

I would say it's 6" from a board edge and 18" weapon range. Which sounds impressive, until you factor the 9" bubble from enemy models, so depending on the deployment type, your opponents army and objective placement, outflanking sisters may not be ideal.

 

And I don't know about you guys, but the amount of 2s I roll to hit, they need either prince or hurricanium support

[Cerve]

13 hours ago, Tidings said:

It can be awesome for sure, but I've found that at tournaments where your opponents will generally be good players, you'll often be screened out of range from shooting any meaningful target. If they don't screen you out then it's a great alpha strike, but the same goes for bridge. I love our flexibility and options

Also, how are you getting 24"? I'm confused there. 

Lastly, while Sisters are great, Irondrakes are more efficient in terms of both damage and durability per point. 

Well, you need to be a good player too
Usually, I use Systers for killing  screens already so it's not an issue for me. The thing is not that a good player will screen you; it is that a good player NEED to screen all his army, constantly. It is not an issue, it's an edge.

The strongest thing about LC is this. You force the opponent to screen everything in his list. Because you can pop up, multiple times, wherever you want. He's not free to spread until you pop out, and he needs to spread then because you're going to appear wherever he won't. That's the best thing about LC. He can't just act freely, because if he expose just one side you're going to hit there. And you're going to hit something for sure: 24" (6"+18" range for Sisters) from any edge, any turn, it's enough. If you're pushing in the middle, there's no way that you oppo will be at 25" from ALL the edges, ALL the game. No way. It chockes him pretty badly.

Of course you need to balance what you're bringing in table and what you're take in reserves, but that's the puzzle of this city (and why it is so good to play with). I like to play a solid anvil as 9 Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes and else for the ground. I tried the Black Dragon too (from edges, charging the same turn) but I don't like too much...I think I'll try Drycha tomorrow, I find her more reliable. The fact is that you can choose everything before the game and in game: you can choose who will be in reserves and who don't, when you'll pull out them etc. Sometimes you will prefer keeping SotW in game, some others you'll find them better outflanking. This city is extremely adaptable. 

About Sisters/Irondrakes, I prefer Sisters for the better range and (most of it) mortal wounds (which are added to normal wounds). Plus, having a Nomad Prince in list, it brings me the opportunity for an heavy shooting alpha/beta strike with multiple SotW units if I need. 
But it is how I builded the list. Irondrakes are good too. 

Edited January 7, 2020 by Cerve

[Aloth_Corfiser]

@adrealSame.
I tend to roll amazing "to hit" rolls every so often but most of the time it is followed by an atrocious "to wound" roll .... ^^

Sometimes it has worked for me to split my Army into many units of 10 and hold back a few reserves in the Shadows to strike at an opportune moment later in the game,

Usually my List is Something like this - meandering between 1970-1990 Points: 
I tend to swap out one of the support Heroes and often choose between aunit of 10 Crossbows or the Assassin / Battlemage .

Nomad Prince (Druid with Lifesurge) (Spear of the Hunt)   
Battlemage (Azyr) Adjutant  Lore-Spell Ironoak Skin (Deepmire Cloak)
Assassin (Optional Adjutant - because he can teleport into Melee near the Prince and support)

10 Wildwood Rangers (Retinue)
10 Wildwood Rangers
10 Wildwood Rangers
Viridian Pathfinders Battalion

10 SotW (Sisters / and Brothers ) of the Watch
10 SotW
10 SotW
10 SotW

(Usually one squad has Cage of Thorns and the other Ironoak Skin to support) I almost never use the Armor of Thorns Spell.... because my opponents have so much rend anymay lol
5 SotT (Sisters of the Thorn)  (it is great when they can get Cage of Thorns off on some nasty thing and you can shoot it with deepstriking SotW)
5 SotT

10 "Glade Guard" (Freeguild Crossbowmen)
10 Freeguild Corssbows
10 Freeguild Crossbows 

Soulsnare Shackles

Edited January 7, 2020 by Aloth_Corfiser
bad grammar

[amsoly]

I just can’t get into the wildwood rangers. I love me my wood elves but they’ve never done it. I was pretty sad that the only LC battalion was 3 units of them  

 

Agreed on the sotw comments. Mine have tore units up quickly but also easy to lose 10 to a decent melee unit. 

[Tidings]

On 1/6/2020 at 5:47 PM, adreal said:

I would say it's 6" from a board edge and 18" weapon range. Which sounds impressive, until you factor the 9" bubble from enemy models

I figured that's what he meant but it's a misleading way to write it, because of the 9" bubble and the fact that it's not a true 24" threat range; you only shoot once if you move.
 

On 1/7/2020 at 7:23 AM, Cerve said:

About Sisters/Irondrakes, I prefer Sisters for the better range and (most of it) mortal wounds (which are added to normal wounds). Plus, having a Nomad Prince in list, it brings me the opportunity for an heavy shooting alpha/beta strike with multiple SotW units if I need. 
But it is how I builded the list. Irondrakes are good too. 

I get everything you are saying and agree that it is very strong. It's the same thing when playing against FEC basically, but even better than FEC. The main thing I don't like is that it can still be played around. I have never lost to an ambushing army in tournaments because if you build a good list, you will have cheap screeners and you can decide what is okay to let die and screen what you need to win. It definitely forces your opponent to play smart and make tough choices, but it's always able to be played around by a good player who made a good list. 

Regarding Irondrakes and Sisters, Irondrakes are mathematically more efficient. They do more damage per point than the more expensive sisters, carry buffs better, all while being more durable. Mortal Wounds are nice though and they're pretty close so it really is preference. Here's a chart though in case you are curious!

Graph is comparing units of 30, and does NOT factor in the point cost - just damage output. Buffs include +1/+1 as you can do that in TE easily, and Irondrakes also have their rending improved (which you can stack btw, I only show it once)

Edited January 8, 2020 by Tidings

[swarmofseals]

The other thing to consider about SotW is that their design tends to make them less efficient in practice than they are on paper. Against targets where you really want the mortals, the shots that fail will be inefficient and the reverse is true for targets against which the regular shots are efficient. Irondrakes on the other hand are consistent.

I do wonder why there isn't more consideration for crossbows. Their offensive efficiency is right up there with SotW and Irondrakes, their defensive efficiency is reasonable and most importantly they have excellent range, meaning your opponent has to spread out even more thinly to keep them from hitting important targets.

[Cerve]

13 hours ago, Tidings said:

I figured that's what he meant but it's a misleading way to write it, because of the 9" bubble and the fact that it's not a true 24" threat range; you only shoot once if you move.
 

I get everything you are saying and agree that it is very strong. It's the same thing when playing against FEC basically, but even better than FEC. The main thing I don't like is that it can still be played around. I have never lost to an ambushing army in tournaments because if you build a good list, you will have cheap screeners and you can decide what is okay to let die and screen what you need to win. It definitely forces your opponent to play smart and make tough choices, but it's always able to be played around by a good player who made a good list. 

Regarding Irondrakes and Sisters, Irondrakes are mathematically more efficient. They do more damage per point than the more expensive sisters, carry buffs better, all while being more durable. Mortal Wounds are nice though and they're pretty close so it really is preference. Here's a chart though in case you are curious!

Graph is comparing units of 30, and does NOT factor in the point cost - just damage output. Buffs include +1/+1 as you can do that in TE easily, and Irondrakes also have their rending improved (which you can stack btw, I only show it once)

Thanks for sharing! But I don't use TE anyway, I can't consider something that needs to stay still for shooting without the LC trait/abilities. I wouldn't play Sisters nor Irondrakes with TE. Outflanking it's just a perfect design for these two units in my opinion. 

Good to see that sheet anyway. I'm in love with Witcher universe so mixing Aelves and Dwarves makes me feel Scoiataelish I will bring some dwarves with me in the future.

 

[Cerve]

9 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

The other thing to consider about SotW is that their design tends to make them less efficient in practice than they are on paper. Against targets where you really want the mortals, the shots that fail will be inefficient and the reverse is true for targets against which the regular shots are efficient. Irondrakes on the other hand are consistent.

 

In fact I found quite the opposite. Against light targets Sisters shine and thar MW it's just a double wound on 6s (which is pretty good for maths). But if I need, I can focus theme on hard targets precisely for those MW.  While I find rend-1 something less specific. I mean, against ts2+/3+ it's not enough and against ts6+/- it's nearly redundant. Sisters gives me that edge against 2+/3+ that Rend-1 can't afford, and they just adds double wounds on 6s on light targets. 

[Myrdin]

So I`ve been tinkering with the idea of running a "mostly non 1W models" list for Living City to make a little use of the +1W regeneration the city bonus confers.

Big monsters, and lots of all sorts of cavalry (Outrides instead of Handgunners. Demis, Wildwood Riders, multiple Hydra, DrdonBdragon and such). The exception being SistersoW. Taking Emerald Lifeswarm and a Runepriest in order to recast it as necessary each turn for maximum Healing potency.

Since units like Outriders, Hydra, DarkRiders and such would still benefit from this as well as the Command Ability, it doesnt sound so bad on paper.

Has anyone tried that, or is the Living City Regeneration just a nice little gimmick and not really something to be considered when army building ?

Edited January 9, 2020 by Myrdin