AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[overtninja]

Honestly, there's enough variety with the Wanderers units that they can fit into most cities if you feel like using their unique kit. I haven't tooled around with them in other cities, because I have a Sylvaneth army so it's silly not to use them too, but there are a lot of great options for Wanderers in any city. Heck, there's great options for any sub-faction in any city, which is why the book is so fantastic.

@Aelfric  I bring as many Shadow Warriors as i can in any list, they are always worth for whatever you need to do, and they are dirt cheap for being as good as they are.

[adreal]

While other cities may work with wanderer units, living city is the only option for me

[Aelfric]

5 hours ago, overtninja said:

Honestly, there's enough variety with the Wanderers units that they can fit into most cities if you feel like using their unique kit. I haven't tooled around with them in other cities, because I have a Sylvaneth army so it's silly not to use them too, but there are a lot of great options for Wanderers in any city. Heck, there's great options for any sub-faction in any city, which is why the book is so fantastic.

@Aelfric  I bring as many Shadow Warriors as i can in any list, they are always worth for whatever you need to do, and they are dirt cheap for being as good as they are.

That's true.  The only city I can't get a grip with is Phoenecium,  but then that also applies to all my old Dark Aelf units as well, not just my Wanderers.  The City just doesn't inspire me in any way at all,  rather leaves me perplexed.  Dying to get benefits doesn't do it for me.

The existence (and versatility) of Shadow Warriors means my 30 GG still have a purpose, which is great.  My only real problem is I now want to add even more units to my Cities collection, even Human and Dwarf.  I do like this book.

[Double Misfire]

On 12/2/2019 at 8:35 PM, Landohammer said:

Do note that Verdant Blessing is not an allegiance spell. All Sylvan wizards just know it. So you wouldn't necessarily need the Treelord ancient to get forests on the table. A branchwraith could do it on it's own!

Verdant Blessing is a Sylvaneth allegiance ability, and definitely dependant on having Sylvaneth allegiance; wizards in a Sylvaneth army just get it an addition to a spell from the Lore of the Deepwood. I don't know why you'd think Living City Sylvaneth wizards would use it. 😯

[Landohammer]

12 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Verdant Blessing is a Sylvaneth allegiance ability, and definitely dependant on having Sylvaneth allegiance; wizards in a Sylvaneth army just get it an addition to a spell from the Lore of the Deepwood. I don't know why you'd think Living City Sylvaneth wizards would use it. 😯

This topic came up in the Sylvaneth thread as well as the Rules forum. So for deeper discussion on that you may want to hit up those threads. But in summary, there is nothing tying Verdant Blessing to Sylvaneth Allegiance. 

Here is the quote from the Sylvaneth Codex:

"SYLVANETH WIZARDS know the Verdant Blessing spell in addition to any other spells they know. In addition, you can choose or roll for one of the spells from the Lore of the Deepwood table for each WIZARD in a Sylvaneth Army."

So RAW: The Lore of the Deepwood requires the allegiance. Verdant Blessing is keyword based.

 

[Raffonerd]

 

34 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

This topic came up in the Sylvaneth thread as well as the Rules forum. So for deeper discussion on that you may want to hit up those threads. But in summary, there is nothing tying Verdant Blessing to Sylvaneth Allegiance. 

Here is the quote from the Sylvaneth Codex:

"SYLVANETH WIZARDS know the Verdant Blessing spell in addition to any other spells they know. In addition, you can choose or roll for one of the spells from the Lore of the Deepwood table for each WIZARD in a Sylvaneth Army."

So RAW: The Lore of the Deepwood requires the allegiance. Verdant Blessing is keyword based.

 

Yes, if you read carefully in the tome they usually say: allegiance abilities are reported in the following pages. So they need allegiance Sylvaneth.

16 hours ago, adreal said:

While other cities may work with wanderer units, living city is the only option for me

True, and rules are also not as good as wanderers rules for them. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Raffonerd

[Double Misfire]

4 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

This topic came up in the Sylvaneth thread as well as the Rules forum. So for deeper discussion on that you may want to hit up those threads. But in summary, there is nothing tying Verdant Blessing to Sylvaneth Allegiance. 

Here is the quote from the Sylvaneth Codex:

"SYLVANETH WIZARDS know the Verdant Blessing spell in addition to any other spells they know. In addition, you can choose or roll for one of the spells from the Lore of the Deepwood table for each WIZARD in a Sylvaneth Army."

So RAW: The Lore of the Deepwood requires the allegiance. Verdant Blessing is keyword based.

 

It's (rather handily) listed in the section of the Sylvaneth Battletome marked allegiance abilities, under spell lores, which would lead anybody reading to conclude that it was clearly intend as an allegiance ability, and not as an addition to the game's core rules. If it had been the designers' intention for Sylvaneth wizards to know Verdant Blessing regardless of allegiance, they'd have included it on each wizard's warscroll. All Cities of Sigmar Standard Bearers and Musicians have identical rules, but they don't get listed alongside the army's allegiance abilities, but are instead included on the individual units' warscrolls, meaning that if a CoS unit were allied into a different army, then you'd know what their rules did.

I can understand the confusion regarding Sylvaneth wizards vs wizards in a Sylvaneth army, but if inconsistent internal wording (in this case in the same paragraph) comes as that much of a shock to you, you've obviously not been playing GW games longer than a week , and it's pretty obvious to see what the intention is. It's RAW too because the rule is listed under allegiance abilities, in the same way that Darkshards and the Dreadlord and Black Dragon are both armed with Repeater Crossbows, but the Darkshards can't choose to pick the statline of the (much better) Repeater Crossbow on the Dreadlord's warscroll. 🙃

[overtninja]

@Raffonerd Wanderers rules might be good, but I don't expect them to be their own faction in GBH2020, so I'm working on future-proofing my collection, so to speak. I do miss all the cool Wanderers heroes, but I'm finding new homes for them in other roles within my CoS army. I not too keen on running an army that might be discontinued in the next few months.

[adreal]

@overtninja is right, wanderers will loose their allegiance abilities because they were rolled into cites of sigmar. Same with darkling covens and freeguild, what is in the book is the tools we have going forward. I for one am very happy with the options we have, from esoteric counts as solutions (black dragon being green), or just adding in Duardian/humans, only thing we are missing is a true approximation of wardancers

[Aelfric]

4 hours ago, adreal said:

only thing we are missing is a true approximation of wardancers

I would add a missile specialist hero.  It does feel a bit weird  to me that there is no Aelven  hero whose expertise is in using a ranged weapon.

[adreal]

Dreadlord can take a repeater crossbow

[amsoly]

12 hours ago, adreal said:

Dreadlord can take a repeater crossbow

So true and great for living cities but I’m in agreement - getting the waywatcher lord would have been amazing!  The old “hail of doom arrow” I think it was called... fun random arrow barrage. 

[Aelfric]

On 12/7/2019 at 12:59 AM, adreal said:

Dreadlord can take a repeater crossbow

This is true, but having a ranged attack and being a ranged specialist are not necessarily the same thing.

[Moogoodoo]

Hi guys, i really want to do a conversion heavy city's army and out of all the city's it has to be the living city 😁 I just have a few questions if I may

Has anyone used a celestant prime in there army? And is he worth it, he's the same points as Dyrthu and has a shooting attack 

What's the best build for kurnoth hunters?

 

I'm thinking of this for my army it's a total wip

Nomad prince 

Battle mage

Arch Rev

Celestiant prime

 

30 eternal guard

10 sisters of the watch

10 sisters of the watch

5 sisters of the thorn 

6  kurnoth hunters 

Endless spells

Emerald life swarm

 pendulum 

1 extra cp

Total

1980

 

Is this a good list to aim for?

I'd like to know from you guys that have played the list

thanks in advance 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Moogoodoo

[GlitzFan]

I like your thoughts. Just to clarify with you, celestant prime does not have a shooting attack for the purposes that he can use the living cities CA.  Rather he has an ability used in the shooting phase - a subtle but rather very important point. 

@Moogoodoo

Edited December 8, 2019 by GlitzFan

[Moogoodoo]

33 minutes ago, GlitzFan said:

I like your thoughts. Just to clarify with you, celestant prime does not have a shooting attack for the purposes that he can use the living cities CA.  Rather he has an ability used in the shooting phase - a subtle but rather very important point. 

@Moogoodoo

That's a very valid point and something my excitement blinded me too, back to the drawing bord 

[Satyrical Sophist]

10 minutes ago, Moogoodoo said:

That's a very valid point and something my excitement blinded me too, back to the drawing bord 

He can still almost guarantee a 9 inch charge though, since he can set one dice to 6. 

[Moogoodoo]

Fair point, so I would be able to use diffrent comand abilities, do you think the list would be effective, I'm not looking to be supper competitive just be able to hold my own

[Raffonerd]

On 12/6/2019 at 2:05 PM, overtninja said:

@Raffonerd Wanderers rules might be good, but I don't expect them to be their own faction in GBH2020, so I'm working on future-proofing my collection, so to speak. I do miss all the cool Wanderers heroes, but I'm finding new homes for them in other roles within my CoS army. I not too keen on running an army that might be discontinued in the next few months.

Main problems that I see are: 

Cities = no battalion for wanderers, no wanderers heroes 

Cites = less efficient items for wanderers 

Cites = mixing units is hard unless a big army conversion (which means that every 6 months you have to convert stuff ecc) and bad for army overlook.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Raffonerd

[overtninja]

@Raffonerd I would argue that lack of access to the Wanderer battalion isn't much of a problem, because it is honestly not very good for what you get, and it heavily restricts your army roster. The LS battalion does actually have a Wanderer-themed battalion, but it's of very questionable utility and it's expensive both in points and actual money spent on kits - though honestly in a monster-heavy meta it would probably slap most armies into the dirt quite handily. 

In Wanderers allegience, there really aren't many good artefacts at all. I defaulted to the Starcaster Longbow because it had the potential to have a real effect on the game - something that can't be said for most of the other artefacts they have access to. Certainly, you miss out on a few juicy artefacts from other realms, but even those are few and far between. In Living City, you get the Spear of the Hunt, which is far and away the best choice for any force. The other artefacts aren't even close. The only real competition is from Gyrestrike, but hitting first in combat with a big monster is worth a great deal more generally speaking.

For heroes, I don't think anyone is going to get mad if you run your elf caster as a Battlemage, or other such. I wouldn't use my elf to represent a dwarf (perish the thought), but I'd certainly convert up a Sorceress and a bunch of counts-as Darkspears out of, like, tree-homonculi or something that she could stab to release their juice or whatever, if I thought it would be a fun combo to run. (It actually does sound like fun, really...) The only hero who's loss I keenly feel is the Waywatcher, because there's really not any other hero like them, and 'that elf with a bow' is part of the fun of playing the 'elves with bows' faction. It is a shame to see him go, I will happily concede that.

In terms of mixing units and converting - I personally am only doing conversions because of specific interest, not because I feel compelled to to keep my force only elves. If/When I incorporate Free People units, or Disposessed, or others, I'll likely leave them as humans and dwarves.

Basically, I've abandoned the idea that I run a Wanderers army, but I'm trying for a certain visual theme specifically because it is, outside of playing the game, a central motivation for me as a hobbyist to convert my models. I'm not attached to a wholly Wanderers army, but it's what I have so it's what I play, and I find it's particular toolkit very effective against most of my local opponents. It is by no means even ideal for the city or even for CoS in general, but I honestly think that's to the benefit of CoS as a faction.

I know this is probably not a satisfying proposition to a player who wants the faction they enjoy collecting and playing to remain vital within the game, but for my purposes and temperament it suits me fine.

[overtninja]

On 12/9/2019 at 3:11 AM, Moogoodoo said:

Fair point, so I would be able to use diffrent comand abilities, do you think the list would be effective, I'm not looking to be supper competitive just be able to hold my own

If you are looking for a beastly monster to hurl into combat turn 1 with LC, get yourself a Drycha. She's a combat monster and her angry bee attack can absolutely obliterate a support hero, and her move is 9". She's also a hero, so she can use the command ability on herself, letting her plow into a soft unit and maul them with her 2 damage attacks. She's also a wizard, which is fantastic, and also has a 3+ save. She's an absolute brute, and really an ideal candidate for the strategy, even over Durthu.

Also, she has a great model, which always counts for a lot in my book.

[amsoly]

The one game I brought Drycha she definitely did work - wiped a hero cleared some bonereapers and then cast cage of thorns to hold back a unit on a flank. 
 

Definitely a good choice for the points.

 

I want to try Drycha and a dreadlord on dragon charging turn 1 that could be fun. 

[Landohammer]

On 12/8/2019 at 6:55 AM, Moogoodoo said:

Hi guys, i really want to do a conversion heavy city's army and out of all the city's it has to be the living city 😁 I just have a few questions if I may

Has anyone used a celestant prime in there army? And is he worth it, he's the same points as Dyrthu and has a shooting attack 

What's the best build for kurnoth hunters?

 

I'm thinking of this for my army it's a total wip

Nomad prince 

Battle mage

Arch Rev

Celestiant prime

 

30 eternal guard

10 sisters of the watch

10 sisters of the watch

5 sisters of the thorn 

6  kurnoth hunters 

Endless spells

Emerald life swarm

 pendulum 

1 extra cp

Total

1980

 

Is this a good list to aim for?

I'd like to know from you guys that have played the list

thanks in advance 

Looks great! Do note that if you substitute Durthu for the Prime then you will have too many Sylvaneth units.

So most people prefer Kurnoth Hunters in units of 6 to have Scythes, but I have fielded a unit of 6 greatswords in about 3 tournaments now and they do just fine. I can usually get 5 guys in with a decent charge roll and that is still 20 attacks. 

I have mentioned this before, but Durthu just isn't that good without Wyldwoods, Glades, and specific artefacts. He loses probably about 40-50% of his damage output outside of Sylvaneth lists. Drycha is a much stronger option for shooting based movement shenanigans.

[Moogoodoo]

31 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Looks great! Do note that if you substitute Durthu for the Prime then you will have too many Sylvaneth units.

So most people prefer Kurnoth Hunters in units of 6 to have Scythes, but I have fielded a unit of 6 greatswords in about 3 tournaments now and they do just fine. I can usually get 5 guys in with a decent charge roll and that is still 20 attacks. 

I have mentioned this before, but Durthu just isn't that good without Wyldwoods, Glades, and specific artefacts. He loses probably about 40-50% of his damage output outside of Sylvaneth lists. Drycha is a much stronger option for shooting based movement 

Thanks for the answers, what about dropping the hunters and the arch rev and adding drycha and 20 spite revs ? Im thinking that list might be a solid choice .

Edited December 10, 2019 by Moogoodoo

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, Moogoodoo said:

Thanks for the answers, what about dropping the hunters and the arch rev and adding drycha and 20 spite revs ? Im thinking that list might be a solid choice .

Spites are good for a battleline unit, but there are very few instances where they will outperform Kurnoth Hunters. Maybe vs hordes of low-save infantry? Note that Spites only have a 1 inch attack range but have 32 inch bases. So on average you may get 7-8 guys in combat.

Also 20 spites is like $160 USD. You could buy 9 Kurnoth Hunters for the same price lol. 

 Drycha is still solid even if she doesn't get to use her Spite buff. It would be extremely difficult to keep them in range of her buff anyway.