AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[SwampHeart]

12 minutes ago, FRoper said:

Hmm, so is the trait worth it, or is it better just having multiple mages, each with taking different spells. 

Without the ability to multicast I don't think its really worth it in Living City, multiple casters is probably the best option. 

[FRoper]

Thank you, is the battalion worth it at all, or it is not very good. Trying to compare with anvilguard, which requires the battalion to be really useful. 

[SwampHeart]

2 minutes ago, FRoper said:

Thank you, is the battalion worth it at all, or it is not very good. Trying to compare with anvilguard, which requires the battalion to be really useful. 

I haven't been running it, unfortunately I don't thin Wildwood Rangers hold up very well - they're excellent against monsters but against most other targets they feel lackluster so having to take 3 units feels like too much of a tax. I'd rather just take good units that take advantage of LC traits instead. 

[Sethiris]

Actually, we have one wizard with 2 casts that can receive the trait: Lord Arcanum on Tauralon! 🤯

[Landohammer]

8 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

I haven't been running it, unfortunately I don't thin Wildwood Rangers hold up very well - they're excellent against monsters but against most other targets they feel lackluster so having to take 3 units feels like too much of a tax. I'd rather just take good units that take advantage of LC traits instead. 

I wouldn't run it either, but its mostly because of the tax and lackluster ability more so than the Rangers. I think Rangers are actually quite good for their cost, and are a solid battleline choice. 

There stats are similar to other elite elves, but the kicker is their 2 inch range and tiny base. So units of 20 can almost always get all 41 of their attacks. So while they excel at monster killing, they are  decent at killing pretty much anything. 

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, Landohammer said:

I wouldn't run it either, but its mostly because of the tax and lackluster ability more so than the Rangers. I think Rangers are actually quite good for their cost, and are a solid battleline choice. 

There stats are similar to other elite elves, but the kicker is their 2 inch range and tiny base. So units of 20 can almost always get all 41 of their attacks. So while they excel at monster killing, they are  decent at killing pretty much anything. 

But for 30 more points you get 10 Phoenix Guard who are offensively identical but far excel defensively. 

[Sethiris]

12 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

But for 30 more points you get 10 Phoenix Guard who are offensively identical but far excel defensively. 

Yeah. Wildwood Rangers are horrid. Both they and Executioners aren't worth their points, especially when we have much better options in Black Guard /Greatswords (offensive) and Phoenix Guard (defensive). The battalion is by far the worst one in Cities and shouldn't even be looked at in a competitive environment.

[Landohammer]

13 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

But for 30 more points you get 10 Phoenix Guard who are offensively identical but far excel defensively. 

Fair point, and Phoenix Guard are definitely emerging as a frontrunner in Cities Battle-line choices.  But 30pts is still a 23% price hike. Also their cheapest unlock character is a whopping 40pts more than a Nomad prince.

So even with just 20 guys and a general you are looking at a 100pt price difference. 

Are they still worth it? Probably, but I would wince anytime my Phoenix guard end up fighting a monster lol. 

[Sethiris]

2 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Fair point, and Phoenix Guard are definitely emerging as a frontrunner in Cities Battle-line choices.  But 30pts is still a 23% price hike. Also their cheapest unlock character is a whopping 40pts more than a Nomad prince.

So even with just 20 guys and a general you are looking at a 100pt price difference. 

Are they still worth it? Probably, but I would wince anytime my Phoenix guard end up fighting a monster lol. 

Actually, the Nomad Prince is 20 points more than the Anointed. So for a NP and 20 WWR you're paying 380. For an Anointed and 20 PG you're paying 420. And the NP doesn't actually do anything for the WWR. The Anointed gives battleshock immunity and has a command ability giving them re-roll wound rolls. WWR are just rubbish.

[Landohammer]

11 minutes ago, Sethiris said:

Yeah. Wildwood Rangers are horrid. Both they and Executioners aren't worth their points, especially when we have much better options in Black Guard /Greatswords (offensive) and Phoenix Guard (defensive). The battalion is by far the worst one in Cities and shouldn't even be looked at in a competitive environment.

My meta has a lot of Bloodthirsters, Mortrarchs, Nagash, and scary Seraphon dinosaurs. A 260pt batteline unit that can pick up those models in one round of combat seems pretty decent to me! 

I agree on the battalion though. We probably have one of the worst in the book. 

[Landohammer]

Just now, Sethiris said:

Actually, the Nomad Prince is 20 points more than the Anointed. So for a NP and 20 WWR you're paying 380. For an Anointed and 20 PG you're paying 420. And the NP doesn't actually do anything for the WWR. The Anointed gives battleshock immunity and has a command ability giving them re-roll wound rolls. WWR are just rubbish.

Ah you are right on the Anointed, sorry I misread the anointed's points. Dang he is cheap.

The NP does give a +1 to hit for the wanderers though. (on top of the crazy good bird debuff). But I imagine the rangers will be teleporting out of the NP's aura most of the time, so I can see it being wasted. 

I won't disagree that Phoenix Guard are better, but I still am not convinced that wildwood rangers are rubbish. I would still prefer them over Dryads, Liberators, Tzaangors, etc. Maybe my expectations for battle-line are just really low. 🤷‍♂️

[Sethiris]

7 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

My meta has a lot of Bloodthirsters, Mortrarchs, Nagash, and scary Seraphon dinosaurs. A 260pt batteline unit that can pick up those models in one round of combat seems pretty decent to me! 

I agree on the battalion though. We probably have one of the worst in the book. 

The thing is, these monsters have a massive threat range (Bloodthirsters go up to like 46"?). You're only getting the charge on them if you deep-strike and roll an 8+ on an unprotected monster. Nagash will definitely have a screen, so will any Mortarch. They might seem appealing in theory, but they never live to hit things back, unlike Phoenix Guard.

[Aelfric]

13 minutes ago, Sethiris said:

The thing is, these monsters have a massive threat range (Bloodthirsters go up to like 46"?). You're only getting the charge on them if you deep-strike and roll an 8+ on an unprotected monster. Nagash will definitely have a screen, so will any Mortarch. They might seem appealing in theory, but they never live to hit things back, unlike Phoenix Guard.

They would be charging on a 7+, +1 from their Hornblower and +1 from the battalion.  I do agree, though, that having to have 3 units of them for the battalion is too many to make it viable.  The minimum cost of the battalion is 650 points.  You would probably want to buy a third CP to cover re-rolls for charges, which would bring the cost to 700 points.   It's a big sink of points and there are better units to deepstrike with, especially in conjunction with "Melt away" to get a 3" charge.

I'm sure that they didn't want to include any missile units (SotW) in the battalion, but if we could have just had a mix of WWR and WR for the 3  units it would have more viability.   

[Sethiris]

32 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Ah you are right on the Anointed, sorry I misread the anointed's points. Dang he is cheap.

The NP does give a +1 to hit for the wanderers though. (on top of the crazy good bird debuff). But I imagine the rangers will be teleporting out of the NP's aura most of the time, so I can see it being wasted. 

I won't disagree that Phoenix Guard are better, but I still am not convinced that wildwood rangers are rubbish. I would still prefer them over Dryads, Liberators, Tzaangors, etc. Maybe my expectations for battle-line are just really low. 🤷‍♂️

The NP aura is for shooting only. If you want a Wanderers Battleline, go for Sisters for offense and Eternal Guard for defense.

 

The thing that all those Battleline you listed have in common is: They are all tougher than Wildwood rangers. And cheaper per wound.

I can see them filling the glass cannon role, but will they really outperform Sisters of the Watch? I highly doubt it, even when considering the points difference. And they both have the same situational Battleline.

[Sethiris]

Just now, Aelfric said:

They would be charging on a 7+, +1 from their Hornblower and +1 from the battalion.  I do agree, though, that having to have 3 units of them for the battalion is too many to make it viable.  The minimum cost of the battalion is 650 points.  You would probably want to buy a third CP to cover re-rolls for charges, which would bring the cost to 700 points.   It's a big sink of points and there are better units to deepstrike with, especially in conjunction with "Melt away" to get a 3" charge.

I'm sure that they didn't want to include any missile units (SotW) in the battalion, but if we could have just had a mix of WWR and WR for the 3  units it would have more viability.   

Yeah, that's a lot of tax for +1 charge.  I agree that the same battalion with NP + 3xWR would definitely have been a different story.

That's why I said 8+

[Aelfric]

14 minutes ago, Sethiris said:

The NP aura is for shooting only.

You can use the NP's command ability at the start of the shooting phase or the start of the combat phase.  The +1 to hit rolls last until the end of whichever phase you chose.  So you can use it to buff WWR.  I think WWR have a place, but I don't need 3 units of them.  A unit of 10 to deepstrike at a particular target is as much as I would take.  I'm sure that the battalion is capable of doing a good alphastrike, but too many stars need to align for it to be dependable.

[Yawn]

I don't think it's that units like WWR & Eternal Guard are bad, its more that Phoenix Guard are outrageously strong. No infantry in the book compares well to them in terms of raw stats. 

[adreal]

Phoenix guard look kinda dorky, so there is that

[kore5022]

Just looking for a bit of advice for an upcoming event, not overly serious but id like to do well. 
I'm working a bit with what i already have, don't have a pheonix or phoenix guard ready to go yet. 

Event is 1500pts, using the roster for 1k games (2 battleline, 2 behemoth etc)

Durthu - General (i know its not super optimal)

ironoak, blade of hammerhall, Healing spell

Sorceress

Knight-Azyros

20x darkshards

10x spears

20x black guard

20x iron drakes

 

I have 100 points left to spend and i feel like it needs more punch but i don't know where to get it. 
General game plan was to use the iron drakes + durthu + knight to grab side objectives or to hit vulnerable points in armies whilst the rest hold the line but it feels very low model count for it. 

 

[Sethiris]

On 10/25/2019 at 4:50 PM, Aelfric said:

You can use the NP's command ability at the start of the shooting phase or the start of the combat phase.  The +1 to hit rolls last until the end of whichever phase you chose.  So you can use it to buff WWR.  I think WWR have a place, but I don't need 3 units of them.  A unit of 10 to deepstrike at a particular target is as much as I would take.  I'm sure that the battalion is capable of doing a good alphastrike, but too many stars need to align for it to be dependable.

Ah, my bad. I didn't read the whole thing!

But yeah. The 5+ save in particular has always irked me when it comes to WWR. Any attacks on them and they just fall apart. (And they upped the cost in the book, which seems really odd considering how rarely they were used before.)

Maybe if they were like 110?

 

[Sethiris]

So, I've been brainstorming a bit after playing Tempest's Eye at a tournament last weekend (bridge list, went 3-2) and already getting fed up with the whole model Tetris playstyle  

I decided that a mobile army is more my thing, and I do love dragons.. So, here's a first version of the list I had in mind:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Living City

Leaders
Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320)
Dreadlord on Black Dragon (300)
- Lance of Spite & Shield
- Artefact: Spear of the Hunt
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Spell: Lore of Leaves - Ironoak Skin (Living City Wizard)
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- General
- Tempest Axe
- Trait: Ironoak Artisan
Branchwych (80)
- Lore of Leaves: Lifesurge

Battleline
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields

Units
20 x Sisters of the Watch (320)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108
 

The plan is to have the sisters deep strike together with the Branchwych and Drakesworn Templar. The sisters will clear screens, the Stardrake will act as a massive distraction Carnifex/tarpit and the other 3 behemoths; Phoenix, Black Dragon and Hurricanum will be the strike team with decent mobility, clearing the board, starting on one end. The battleline units will just be there for board control.

I might swap out the spells a bit as cage of thorns would be nice on the Branchwych, but casting on a 7 could be unreliable  

 

Thoughts?  

[Aelfric]

5 hours ago, Sethiris said:

So, I've been brainstorming a bit after playing Tempest's Eye at a tournament last weekend (bridge list, went 3-2) and already getting fed up with the whole model Tetris playstyle  

I decided that a mobile army is more my thing, and I do love dragons.. So, here's a first version of the list I had in mind:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Living City

Leaders
Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix (320)
Dreadlord on Black Dragon (300)
- Lance of Spite & Shield
- Artefact: Spear of the Hunt
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Spell: Lore of Leaves - Ironoak Skin (Living City Wizard)
Drakesworn Templar (460)
- General
- Tempest Axe
- Trait: Ironoak Artisan
Branchwych (80)
- Lore of Leaves: Lifesurge

Battleline
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields
10 x Freeguild Guard (80)
- Swords and Shields

Units
20 x Sisters of the Watch (320)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 108
 

The plan is to have the sisters deep strike together with the Branchwych and Drakesworn Templar. The sisters will clear screens, the Stardrake will act as a massive distraction Carnifex/tarpit and the other 3 behemoths; Phoenix, Black Dragon and Hurricanum will be the strike team with decent mobility, clearing the board, starting on one end. The battleline units will just be there for board control.

I might swap out the spells a bit as cage of thorns would be nice on the Branchwych, but casting on a 7 could be unreliable  

 

Thoughts?  

Haven't played any games with Cities yet, but have been focusing my hobby towards a Living City list.  My main concern has been the lack of Command Points available.  Without the Battalion or an Adjutant, you only get one per Hero phase.  Every list I make has 50 pts spent on an extra CP.  That's so I have the option of being able to use "Melt away" twice in an Alphastrike if I want to.  The Spear of the Hunt seems best if you have 2 hard-hitting units going in at the same time so they both fight before being attacked back (providing your opponent can't alter priority).  I am beginning to lean towards using missile troops to alphastrike with and conserve CPs as required.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Aelfric

[Aelfric]

8 hours ago, Sethiris said:

Ah, my bad. I didn't read the whole thing!

But yeah. The 5+ save in particular has always irked me when it comes to WWR. Any attacks on them and they just fall apart. (And they upped the cost in the book, which seems really odd considering how rarely they were used before.)

Maybe if they were like 110?

 

110 would at least reduce the cost of the battalion by 60 pts - not that that would make enough of a difference.  They don't even get a horde discount.  They are good Monster-killers, but that role is too specialised to warrant more than one unit, and that probably of 10.  I am prepared to pay 130 for that; but it means our only battalion is not viable.  Thus we cannot get a second artifact or an extra CP without compromising too much on the strength of our army.

I would even look at it again if it were  NP with 2 units of WWR and 1 of WR.  Same price, but suddenly much more versatility and possibly worth the trade-off.

Unfortunately, the only thing that is likely to change now are the points costs and they would have to go down far more than 60 before I would think of using the battalion.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Aelfric

[Sethiris]

15 hours ago, Aelfric said:

Haven't played any games with Cities yet, but have been focusing my hobby towards a Living City list.  My main concern has been the lack of Command Points available.  Without the Battalion or an Adjutant, you only get one per Hero phase.  Every list I make has 50 pts spent on an extra CP.  That's so I have the option of being able to use "Melt away" twice in an Alphastrike if I want to.  The Spear of the Hunt seems best if you have 2 hard-hitting units going in at the same time so they both fight before being attacked back (providing your opponent can't alter priority).  I am beginning to lean towards using missile troops to alphastrike with and conserve CPs as required.

Thanks for the input. You definitely have a point with the CP thing. I was thinking that this list might not be quite as dependant on it, but one option could be to swap out the Branchwych for a CP and upgrade the Freeguild guard to Bleakswords.

Another would be to drop the Stardrake, but getting something with 2+ save and a shooting attack is rare. So I won't really have anything to move, save for the Sisters and the Hurricanum.

I have considered a crossbow on the Black Dragon, but it feels so wasted to lose one save over it. And in this list, it's paired with the Phoenix which doesn't have any ranged attack anyway, so I might as well keep them as protected as possible. (-2 to wound on the Dragon should help, right?)

I do realize that this list is vulnerable to mortal wounds, but then again, the only things Cities have that aren't are the Phoenixes and Phoenix Guard. 

Hopefully, striking first on the charge helps mitigate some of that, specifically versus Slaanesh and Khorne. FEC are still a hassle.  

[Furythrow2]

@Sethiris if you're planning to use the freeguild guard just for board control I don't know if upgrading them to bleakswords would be worth it.

As for taking the crossbow on the dreadlord, I think the only way it's better than the shield is if you're using it with the command ability to get the easy charge from outflanking.