AoS 2 - Phoenicium Discussion

[Fazhak]

Hello! As I wait for an update to my main army, I'm exploring Cities of Sigmar and its play. I've discovered the following list to fun and surprisingly effective. I look forward to your feedback and thoughts!

I use Vengeful Revenants to discourage attacks on my Steam Tanks, so that ability serves a more passive purpose in this list. Instead, I focus on how my Phoenicium Steam Tank Commander can learn the Golden Mist spell to heal nearby Steam Tanks. The Anointed on Flamespyre Phoenix either supports the Phoenix Guard units or charges forward to complicate my opponent's plans in the center of the board. The attractiveness of the latter option is enhanced by its Phoenix Pyre Ashses artefact and Phoenix Reborn ability.

Each Phoenix Guard unit in teamed with one of the two Anointed. Those forces are then used to secure my flanks and pressure those of my opponent.  The Ironbreakers move forward centerfield, screening the Steam Tanks, and benefit in combat from Inspiring Presence via the Steam Tank Commander. The list grinds out its opposition while packing a surprising punch of its own.

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Phoenicium
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Steam Tank with Commander (230)
- General
- Command Trait: One with Fire and Ice - Golden Mist
Anointed of Asuryan on Flamespyre Phoenix (300)
- Artefact: Phoenix Pyre Ashes
Anointed (100)
Anointed (100)

Battleline
30 x Ironbreakers (270)
Steam Tank (180)
Steam Tank (180)

Units
20 x Phoenix Guard (320)
20 x Phoenix Guard (320)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 128

Edited February 8, 2021 by Fazhak

[readercolin]

Well, this feels a little like thread necromancy (and definitely in the wrong grand alliance for that), but since we aren't creating new threads for cities in 3.0, I felt like posting here.

Recently, a player took a Pheonicium army to LVO, went 5-0, and then lost in the semi-finals.  There was a great interview with this player over on AoS Coach's youtube channel here: 

The army list was:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Phoenicium
- Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty
Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)*
- General
- Command Trait: One with Fire and Ice - Golden Mist
- Artefact: Phoenix Pyre Ashes
Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Celestial Hurricanum with Celestial Battlemage (280)
- Lore of the Phoenix: Golden Mist
Assassin (80)*
Assassin (80)*
Assassin (80)**
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)***
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)***
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)***
10 x Shadow Warriors (120)**
10 x Shadow Warriors (120)**
1 x Scourgerunner Chariots (80)*
*Warlord
**Vanguard
***Hunters of the Heartlands
Artefact

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
Drops: 12

After taking a closer look at this, and the models in my collection, I decided to give the Phoenicium a try locally, and see how it plays out.  I'll detail my experiences in another post.

 

[readercolin]

So I decided to test the Phoenicium out with models in my own collection, and this is what I ended up building:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Phoenicium
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs:
Anointed on Flamespyre Phoenix (290)*
- General
- Command Trait: One with Fire and Ice - Golden Mist
- Artefact: Phoenix Pyre Ashes
Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of the Phoenix: Golden Mist
Assassin (80)*
Assassin (80)*
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)**
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)**
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)**
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)
10 x Phoenix Guard (175)
10 x Shadow Warriors (120)
10 x Shadow Warriors (120)
10 x Shadow Warriors (120)*
*Warlord
**Hunters of the Heartlands
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 114
Drops: 12
 

Now, before anyone asks - no, I don't think I'm better than Jeremy who took his list to LVO.  However, after reviewing what models I had in my collection, this is what I settled on.  If I had the models, I would probably swap one squad of shadow warriors for another assassin, and upgrade my flamespyre phoenix to a second frostheart, but other than that, I find that I have actually really been enjoying the Phoenicium.

So to all of the people who clicked on this thread because it popped up and don't have a clue what the phoenicium does, and don't want to watch Jeremy talk with Coach on that for an hour and a half (its actually pretty good if you have the time though), here is what makes the Phoenicium special:

First off, the army ability.  If any friendly Phoenicium units have been destroyed in the same phase, you get +1 to hit and wound for melee weapons.  Second off, their command ability, Living Idol, lets you pick a PHOENIX HERO, and they use a CP to pop a 12" bubble of "fight on death" (note, this is for each model within 12"... the unit doesn't have to be wholly within 12" for it to work, but it does work better if that is the case).  Basically everything else about the army is irrelevant and can be ignored, these are the two abilities that make the Phoenicium work... and realistically, after playing a few games, its that command ability that takes the cake.

So how does my list play out?

Basically, I start deployment with a 5 drop null deploy of the shadow warriors and assassins.  Then I start putting my phoenix's and phoenix guard down, with deployment varying depending upon my opponent.  The most important part about this step is that I always make sure that every unit of phoenix guard is wholly within 12" of at least 1 phoenix, and each phoenix is wholly within 12" of the other phoenix.  This way if my opponent decides to try to snipe me, I can still heal up with golden mists, while if my opponent commits to a turn 1 charge everyone is within range to be affected by the Living Idol ability.

Then, I move up the board, and make sure that I have my overlapping bubbles.  I will basically always keep everything wholly within 12" of at least one phoenix, and I will use the Phoenix Guard to screen my phoenix's.  If my opponent decides to charge me, they are usually going to bring at least 2 squads of phoenix guard into combat, and then "surprise, its assassin time".  If I get to charge, I'm usually going to be bringing 2-4 units of phoenix guard into combat, and basically everything is guaranteed to hit something.  Finally, I bring the shadow warriors in to shoot at things that my phoenix guard will have trouble getting to (ex. longstrikes), and it is VERY important to note that shadow warriors are also good in melee combat, so don't be afraid to come down, shoot, and then charge.

Due to how tanky phoenix guard are, if your opponent really wants to kill a squad, they tend to overcommit a lot.  If they don't kill one, then they are pinned in combat (which is generally good for me).  It also means that your opponent is going to be playing very risky if they go for broken ranks, or they are overcommitting hard to accomplish it, which means they aren't putting damage on other units.  Similarly, due to how tanky phoenix's are, bring it down is a questionable battle tactic unless once again, they overcommit really, really hard.  And slay the warlord is a HUGE gamble because not only are they committing hard to burst down a phoenix, but there is a 50% chance that it is just going to get back up at full health.

As for killiness... I'll leave that to the battle reports that I'm going to post below.

[readercolin]

So, battle reports.  I have run this list 3 times so far, with my opponents being a Casual Gutbuster Ogre's army, a competitive Daughters of Khaine army, and a competitive Stormcast army... and the end result is that I plan to keep bringing it out some more.  Maybe I'm just too in love with phoenix guard, maybe I just love my phoenixes, but personally I think it is because it just straight up feels good to run these lists.  So to the battle reports.  Note, I ran the exact same list in all of the battle reports.

Phoenicium vs Ogres.

My Ogre opponent was definitely running a pretty casual list, and this is the best that I can remember it:

Allegiance: Ogor Mawtribes
- Mawtribe: Bloodgullet
Tyrant (150)
- General
Butcher (135)
Slaughtermaster (140)
6 x Ogor Gluttons (250)
4 x Ironguts (235)
4 x Ironguts (235)
1 x Gorgers (80)
Aleguzzler Gargant (165)
- Allies
Aleguzzler Gargant (165)
- Allies
Ironblaster (130)
Ironblaster (130)
Ironblaster (130)

Total: 1945 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 330 / 400
Wounds: 134
Drops: 12

The game was Tectonic Interference, which basically meant we went and had a mash in the center.  I went first, and moved up to barely toe the line on all 3 objectives, and did ferocious advance for my battle tactic, for a total of 6 points.  I also brought down 1 squad of shadow warriors in cover, and got lucky with them dealing 8 damage to one of his gargants. 

On his turn, he moved up, tried blowing up one of my birds with his ironblasters, doing a whole lot of... not much, and succeeded in charging his wounded gargant into my shadow warriors, his unwounded gargant into one of my squads of phoenix guard, and a block of ironguts into another unit of phoenix guard.  The shadow warriors unleashed hell, bringing the gargant to 10 wounds, and at the beginning of combat I popped an assassin out next to his unwounded gargant and popped Living Idol to affect that combat and the combat with the Ironguts.  He went first into my shadow warriors, killing 6 of them, and then I went with my assassin wounding his other gargant.  Next, my opponent made their first mistake and squished my assassin, giving my whole army +1/+1, and allowing my phoenix guard to murder 2 of the ironguts in their face (even through mystic shield/all out defense).  He hit my phoenix guard, killing 2 of them, and then I finished off both of his gargants.  He did however complete his battle tactic and controlled 2 objectives for 5 points.

Turn 2, I went first, and did Broken Ranks on his ironguts.  I healed my Phoenix's with golden mists and heroic recovery, dropped a second squad of shadow warriors, and then moved up to charge.  My charge tied up all 3 of his ironblasters, his other squad of ironguts, and his gluttons, his gorger, and his butcher.  Then through a series of... rather poor rolls... he failed to kill any of my units in combat while I cleared out his damaged squad of ironguts, took the other squad down to 1, and eliminated his gorger and one of his ironblasters.  Note here that Living Idols played a HUGE roll, as I was able to focus on combats one by one and even as models died in my units, they were still able to strike with their full firepower.  At the end, I completed my battle tactic with a monster, and controlled all 3 points for a total of 6 points, bringing me up to 12.

On his turn, he shuffled around a little bit to charge his tyrant and butcher in, and chose broken ranks on a unit of 2 remaining phoenix guard.  Due to how the fighting went, he lost his butcher and the last of his ironguts before they could swing, and he failed his battle tactic.  Additionally, he failed to kill any units again, and at the end of the turn was left with his tyrant, his butcher, and 1 ironblaster, while scoring 0 points.  At this point we called it, as we saw no way that he would be able to get back into the game.

------------------

Next, my matchup vs Daughters of Khaine.  Here is their list as best as I can remember it:

Allegiance: Daughters of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Morathi-Khaine (330)*
The Shadow Queen (330)*
Bloodwrack Medusa (120)*
- General
20 x Witch Aelves (240)*
20 x Witch Aelves (240)*
15 x Blood Stalkers (540)*
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (95)*
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (95)*
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 4 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 104
Drops: 1

This battle took place on Power Struggle, and he dropped his whole army before I placed a model (surprise surprise).  He did an... ok job screening his blood stalkers, but still kept them forward far enough that I could deepstrike my shadow warriors and hit them.  Since I deployed the rest of my army outside of his 24" range, he couldn't hero phase shoot me, so he made me go first.

My turn 1, I did ferocious advance, got off a mystic shield, ran some units, and controlled 3 objectives, with 2 units of phoenix guard holding back a little to hold the back two points (though closer to the center objective), and the rest of my army moving up on the middle objective.  Then I dropped all 3 squads of shadow warriors to shoot his blood stalkers, getting 1 unit in cover and the other 2 out.  They were able to kill 5 of the blood stalkers with their shooting attacks, and then stayed put.  I got 5 points for my battle tactic and objectives.

His turn 1, he did ferocious advance and ran 1 squad of witch elves, morathi and the medusa.  He was able to get Mindrazor off on the Shadow Queen, I unbound mystic shield, and he was unable to get off another spell.  Hero phase shooting took out a squad of shadow warriors.  He moved up, ran his witch aelves closer, and then proceeded to shoot off another squad of shadow warriors.  He charged with all his witch aelves and the shadow queen, but due to positioning everything was within range of the frostheart's -1 to wound aura.  Beginning of combat, I popped living idols, and captain of the phoenix guard, and dropped out both assassins, and then things got messy.  He went first with a squad of witch aelves, and killed an assassin and 2 phoenix guard.  My other squad of phoenix guard cleaned up most of the 20 man squad of witch aelves that hadn't attacked yet, with the assassin finishing the job after he activated them.  He activated morathi last, and whiffed hard (mostly due to the frostheart's bubble), and only managed to kill 5 phoenix guard.  I was able to clean up both of his 20 man squads of witch aelves, and only the 5 phoenix guard were left in combat with morathi.

Turn 2, I went first, and chose conquer.  I was able to fly over his blood stalkers with my flamespyre phoenix, and move 2 squads of phoenix guard up to charge them, as well as the assassin.  The frostheart moved into position to get his bubble over everything, and I was able to charge in and clean up the blood stalkers, and the phoenix guard in combat with morathi were able to take 3 wounds off her as they died.

Bottom of turn 2, my opponent had Morathi, his bloodwrack medusa, and 2 squads of Kinerai still in the sky.  I still had 10 shadow warriors, 2 phoenix's, and about 30 phoenix guard, as well as 3/5 objectives, and morathi already had 6 wounds on her.  At this point we called it as it was getting late, and my opponent didn't see a way to come back into the game.

The key thing from this was once again, killing a unit of mine is VERY painful for my opponents, and the ability to fight before death means I generally am not too concerned about who is activating what when - as long as whichever phoenix has Living Idol is not in combat.

--------------

Finally, my match vs Stormcast.  Here was the list:

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals
- Stormhost: Hammers of Sigmar (Stormkeep)
Knight-Relictor (140)*
- General, high priest, mirrorshield, translocate
Aventis Firestrike Magister of Hammerhal (310)*
- celestial blades
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Vindictors (130)*
5 x Liberators (115)*
4 x Stormdrake Guard (680)*
- Drakerider's Warblade
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (480)*
*Battle Regiment
Holy Command: Thunderbolt Volley

Total: 1985 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 96
Drops: 1

The battleplan here was Feral Foray, and my opponent (obviously) finished deploying first.  Due to deployment, he wasn't able to deploy in a way that protected his longstrikes from deep striking shadow warriors and still have them be relevant on turn 1, so he decided to go first.  My deployment was such that I had units on all of the objectives, but everything was within range for at least 1 phoenix bubble, but my phoenix's were out of range for thunderbolt volley unless my opponent exposed them with translocate.

Turn 1, he went first, did ferocious advance with Aventis, the Knight-Relictor, and a squad of vindictors, then failed both his spell casts, but did thunderbolt volley in to kill 7 phoenix guard and moved his dragons forward in the hero phase.  Movement got the dragons in my face, and he decided to throw everything at the frostheart, shooting it with the longstrikes and the dragon breath... killing it quite thoroughly, and putting 2 squads of phoenix guard outside 12" from the other phoenix.  He also positioned his battleline in such a way that I couldn't deep strike my shadow warriors and still be able to shoot the longstrikes.  The dragons then charged my phoenix guard, and in combat I popped living idol to get what I could and waited to see what happened.  Due to positioning, the dragons were engaged with 3 separate units of phoenix guard, and they threw their attacks in killing 3 from the farthest unit, 4 from the middle unit, and 2 from the squad of 3 guys remaining.  My counterattack managed to deal 10 wounds to the unit, killing 1 dragon and dealing a damage to a second.  I was also able to pile the middle unit into 12" of the phoenix, and used inspiring presence on the other unit to prevent anything from running.

My turn 1, I chose to be a little risky and chose "bring it down" on the dragons.  I flew over them with my phoenix doing 5 mortal wounds, and then got another squad of phoenix guard in position to charge, then ended my movement phase by dropping all 3 squads of shadow warriors to shoot his battleline units.  Shooting killed 3 vindictors and a liberator, and then I charged my flamespyre and my phoenix guard.  Monstrous rampages did exactly nothing, and beginning of combat I popped living idols and dropped both assassins on the dragons.  First attack was the flamespyre phoenix, which was able to kill one dragon and deal a bit of damage to the second.  His response killed one assassin and some of the phoenix guard.  I then proceeded to pile in with the rest of my units and finish off the dragons with some damage to spare... but his dragons exploded hard enough to kill the other assassin.

Turn 2 my opponent went first, and chose broken ranks on my lone phoenix guard from his unit.  He was able to do that, but the rest of his longstrikes wiffed against the phoenix and only did 7 damage to it.  He also charged his vindictors into my shadow warriors (rather than just losing them to shooting), and was able to kill 4 of them but lost his vindictors.

My turn 2, I chose conquer, recovered some health between heroic recovery and golden mists, walked onto one of his objectives, and then charged 20 phoenix guard and my phoenix into his other squad of vindictors.  Combat and shooting then took out the vindictors and his Knight-Relictor, leaving him with his longstrikes, Aventis, and 5 liberators.

I then won the turn 3 roll off and we called it.  Without his Knight-Relictor he couldn't translocate his raptors, and they were ~4" away from my flamespyre phoenix.  The score was evenish at this time, but even if he won turn 3 he didn't see a way to turn the battle around when I still had ~35 phoenix guard and 25 shadow warriors, even if he shot my flamespyre off the board.

----------

Overall, I have really enjoyed playing the Phoenicium.  Shadow Warriors have been... fine, but not stellar.  But the assassins have been incredible to run, and the living idols ability to ensure that I am always getting my damage in has been enough to make the Phoenicium one of my favorite armies to run in the Cities.  That being said, I'm not 100% sure that it is best to run these small units of 10, or if it would be better to do something like run blocks of 20 phoenix guard.  I'm going to be continuing to experiment with the city, but the living idols ability just makes me so happy to run my units.

[NauticalSoup]

Very cool, I have been thinking about working on finishing my own phoenix-heavy force using assassins and this gives me more inspiration. A sigmar list hasn't grabbed me in a while like this one has!

[Doko]

Sorry but i wont change,phoeniciun is very poor and we have as 4 better citys.

The +1 hit and wound is situational and with the cap of +1 in 3.0 is pretty useless,only being hurricanum as everyone and done.

Also attack when die? Why?bring tank units to attack when die when i could use the other city that for 1 cp can attack twice?or tempest eye and give them +1 attack etc.

Sorry its fun but for competitive havent sense

[readercolin]

3 hours ago, Doko said:

Sorry but i wont change,phoeniciun is very poor and we have as 4 better citys.

The +1 hit and wound is situational and with the cap of +1 in 3.0 is pretty useless,only being hurricanum as everyone and done.

Also attack when die? Why?bring tank units to attack when die when i could use the other city that for 1 cp can attack twice?or tempest eye and give them +1 attack etc.

Sorry its fun but for competitive havent sense

Sooo... someone going 5-0 at LVO isn't competitive.  Gotcha.

[Doko]

Only means he had luck,or better skill than their oponents.

Also he didnt won as the living city did.

He would have done better with any other city.

But is fun 

[readercolin]

5 hours ago, Doko said:

Only means he had luck,or better skill than their oponents.

Also he didnt won as the living city did.

He would have done better with any other city.

But is fun 

Did you watch the interview?  He specifically said that his list would be straight up worse in any other city.

Also, have you actually tried a list with the phoenicium?  Or are you just parroting the same stuff that has been said about the city since it was released in 2nd edition?

And yes, he didn't win - he came in 4th at a 170+ person event, went 5-0 in the swiss and lost in the semi-finals - effectively going 6-1 in the entire event.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I really like this list. Definitely makes the most out of the Phoenicium battle traits.

I think a Gyrocopter or two might make a fun addition to it. They are fast, cheap, flying units with an anti-horde gun and once-per-game mortal wound bomb. Could be useful as independent operators to contest out of the way objectives or as sacrifices to trigger that +1/+1 ability.

[Popisdead]

Did anyone listen to the AoS coach interview with the guy who went 5-1 at LVO with Phonecium?  

 

Pretty good listen (well the guest interviewed well).

 

Even recommended trying Rangers instead of PG (for me who has 30 Rangers and no PG i think I wnat to give it a go).

[readercolin]

So I wasn't able to get in as many games this week as last, but I was able to take the Phoenicium out against a Legion of the First Prince list that someone was practicing with for a tournament.  I ran the same things as before, but he was running:

Great Unclean One - general, ruinous aura, fourfold blade (on the nurglings)
Be'Lakor
Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury
10 Pink Horrors
5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds
Soulscream Bridge

We ran the Vice, with him deploying his flesh hounds near the objectives/denying my deepstrikes, and then the pinks and his big boys up near the deployment line.  I deployed my Shadow Warriors and Assassins in reserve, tossed a phoenix down near each objective, and then deployed my phoenix guard near the front edge of the 12" bubble from the phoenix's.

Turn 1:

He made me go first, and I did ferocious advance, moved my birds next to each other, and got most of my phoenix guard to just within the 9" bubble from the frostheart phoenix, while being wholly within 12" of both phoenix's.  I scored 4 points, and not much happened. 

On His turn, he cast the bridge from Be'lakor, who was just out of unbind range, and did ferocious advance with Be'lakor, a unit of flesh hounds, and the squad of pink horrors.  He jumped his great unclean one through the bridge to 9" away from my phoenix guard, and brought both bloodthirsters up, with the objective being to pile in 6" to attack with the boomthirster.  I was a smart cookie though and re-deployed the one squad of phoenix guard back to 6.5" away to force him to charge.  He summoned some Pinks in with Be'lakor, in a spot where they could shoot my phoenix guard, and proceeded to kill 2 guard in his shooting phase (from the great unclean one only).  On charge, he got in with the great unclean one and the boomthirster, and I popped my assassins out next to his great unclean one and his boomthirster, locking his thirster outside of the wholly within 8" bubble from the great unclean one.  In combat, he wiped out 1 squad of phoenix guard with his great unclean one, and I did ~8 damage to his boomthirster in response.  He then killed 4 guard with his boomthirster, failing to roll any 6's to wound, and I got another 2 damage in with my assassin, and put ~10 damage in on his great unclean one.  Overall score, 4 to 4.

Turn 2:

He got the double and took it.  For his battle tactic, he did savage spearhead, and he moved his summoned pinks and belakor up to charge, while his starting block of pinks moved a bit closer but were unable to shoot due to running into position.  His dogs he moved back to screen his objectives.  Next, he summoned in 10 plaguebearers.  Combat, belakor and the summoned pinks got in, while his second bloodthirster failed its charge and just stood around.  I lost a few more phoenix guard, but for the most part on damage we both wiffed pretty hard.  He completed his battle tactic with a monster, and scored 5 points.

On my turn I did bring it down on his boomthirster which had 4 wounds left on it, and he Be'lakored my Flamespyre Phoenix.  I adjusted my frostheart's position, and brought all 3 squads of shadow warriors down - 2 in his back field and 1 in mine.  I thought I had his boomthirster in the bag, and used my shadow warriors to shoot his summoned pinks, while the ones in his back field each took down 2 dogs.  Combat came around, and my assassin and phoenix guard wiffed hard against his boomthirster, leaving it alive on 2 wounds.  I killed his summoned pinks and brought belakor and his great unclean one low, but failed to kill either.  I scored 2 points, bringing us 6-9 in his favor.

Turn 3:

He won the roll off, and decided he had to take it.  He chose broken ranks on a squad of 3 phoenix guard.  Movement he summoned in 5 more pinks, and moved his dogs into position to charge my shadow warriors, while his 10 pinks got into position to shoot my frostheart, and he retreated be'lakor out to get him near his bodyguard.  Charging, he got his dogs into my shadow warriors, and lost another dog to unleash hell.  Combat, he started with his great unclean one killing my phoenix guard, which killed the great unclean one with their fight on death, which then killed my assassin with its fight on death, and my assassin was then very sad that nothing was in range for it to fight.  I went with a squad of shadow warriors to wipe out his unit of 3 dogs, then he went with his boomthirster and did 3 damage to my assassin.  I then went with my other squad of shadow warriors, killing his dogs, and then I finished off his boomthirster with my assassin.  He completed his battle tactic with a monster, and held 2 objectives, scoring 5 points, while I killed a monster scoring 1 point.

On my turn, I chose Conquer, and moved my shadow warriors up to take all 4 objectives.  My phoenix guard and assassin from the boomthirster went towards the center, while my other phoenix guard moved up to charge be'lakor and friends.  The Flamespyre Phoenix flew over Be'lakor and dropped some fire on him, while the frostheart got into an annoying position.  I got 2 squads of phoenix guard into be'lakor, but failed my charges with both phoenix's.  In combat, I killed Be'lakor, and brought his summoned pinks down to brimstones, and killed a few plaguebearers.  End of turn, I completed my battle tactic, controlled 4 objectives, and scored 5 points, bringing us 12-14 in his favor.

Turn 4:

I won the roll off and took the turn.  Battle Tactic was "savage spearhead" which was basically auto-accomplished by my 2 squads of shadow warriors.  My flamespyre Phoenix flew over his brimstones, killing them, and then moved into position to charge his plaguebearers, while my frostheart, assassin, and remaining phoenix guard from the other side moved up to charge his bloodthirster.  I did some damage in shooting with my shadow warriors, and then charged and killed his bloodthirster and plaguebearers, taking control of the center objective (despite most of his pinks sitting there - leaving them un-engaged prevented him from getting more bodies on the objective than me).  I completed my battle tactic, controlled the objective and killed a monster for 5 points.

On his turn, all he had left was the pink horrors, and he chose conquer.  He charged his pinks into my frostheart, and lost enough pinks to take the objective from me, scoring his battle tactic and controlling the objective for 4 points.  This brought us to 17-18 in his favor.  At this point though we called it, because I had 2 birds, an assassin, 23 phoenix guard, and 30 shadow warriors left, and he had some blue horrors.  Even if he won turn 5, he couldn't do a battle tactic, while I could choose broken ranks or monstrous takeover and kill his horrors off, bringing the score to 21-20 in my favor.  Additionally, his grand strategy was prized sorcery, which he had already lost, while mine was hold the line, bringing the final score to 24-20.

--------

Overall, the thing that I find the MOST key about a phoenicium list is the Living Idols command ability for Fight on Death.  The +1 to hit/wound is nice when it happens, but it is best to treat it as a nice bonus when it happens and otherwise ignore it.  The Fight on Death ability is what makes the list though, as it allows me to just put a brick in front of someone and say "go for it".  I don't have to worry about who hits first, or any sort of combat order, I just always know that all of my guys will be able to attack.  Yes, it isn't quite as good vs a shooting heavy army, and if you are confident in your ability to hit first it isn't as good as a really strong hammer in say, a living cities list.  But for being able to reliably do my thing and get my damage, it is great, and I would highly recommend anyone who wants to try it out.

The key core to a Phoenicium list is 2 phoenix's (whatever flavor you want, though frostheart's are better at the moment).  This way you can reliably get your living idols ability off, and your opponent can't just snipe a key component of your army off on turn 1 without any worries.  Then Phoenix Guard are good mostly because they are already durable and killy, and they are immune to battleshock near a bird.  However, you can probably go ahead and choose whatever infantry/cavalry you want, as long as it can do some damage.  I kind of want to try a list running a bunch of demigryph knights, just to give my birds some escort birdies.  As for the rest, you can bring a strong ranged component like you would for another cities army, and be able to reliably attack from 2 fronts.  Also, there is no requirement that a phoenix be your general... I just generally would because I would run phoenix guard, and why not?

[Popisdead]

On 2/19/2022 at 1:54 PM, readercolin said:

Also, there is no requirement that a phoenix be your general... I just generally would because I would run phoenix guard, and why not?

I don't own any PG, I have an old collection of Wanderers.  Do you think there is merit in trying 2 phoenixes, assassins, Nomad Prince, Rangers (BL), Shadow Warriors?  What about EG?  Or is the disparity between PG and either Wanderer units to vast?

Also appreciate your recent posts, thanks kindly.

[readercolin]

43 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

I don't own any PG, I have an old collection of Wanderers.  Do you think there is merit in trying 2 phoenixes, assassins, Nomad Prince, Rangers (BL), Shadow Warriors?  What about EG?  Or is the disparity between PG and either Wanderer units to vast?

Also appreciate your recent posts, thanks kindly.

So without phoenix guard, it is going to be a less durable list.  This makes it easier to pick off units from shooting, from impact damage on charges, from mortal wounds from spells, etc.  However, to compensate, you are getting more bodies on the board and more wounds available.

I think that as long as you stick to 2 phoenix's to make sure you have some redundancy for the Living Idols ability, the rest of the list is a lot more flexible.  Phoenix guard are good with them because of the Captain of the Phoenix Guard ability and the immunity to battleshock, but I think that you can get some similar results out of other units as well.  That being said, I think having more MSU units is better than a big block or two because you can reliably get your damage out due to fight on death, and more MSU means more chances to proc your vengeful revenants ability.  But at the same time, if there are reasons to run a big block of guys due to buffing abilities, then I would still run those big blocks.

For list construction, you can still build towards an army that is trying to get the drop on people, but due to wanting to run double phoenix for redundency, the lowest you can realistically go is a 2 drop list, otherwise you are risking losing the phoenix to an alpha strike and not getting the use of the living idols abilities.  This means that you are generally going to tend towards going high drops and trying to counter-deploy vs your opponents.

If I was focusing on a wanderers build, this is probably what I would look at running:

Wanderers:
Annointed on Frostheart
Annointed on Frostheart
Nomad Prince - general
Assassin
Assassin
2x 10 Eternal Guard
2x 10 Wildwood Rangers
3x 10 Sisters of the Watch

This list is looking to stick eternal guard up front, with wildwood rangers behind for "counter charging", and then use the sisters of the watch for unleash hell, or just general picking off targets.  The nomad prince has a 12" bubble around himself of +1 to hit, which all the wanderers units would take advantage of.  Some considerations with this list is whether or not to drop the assassins for battle mages or sorceress's, and whether or not the wildwood rangers should actually just be more eternal guard.  Overall, I wouldn't expect this build to perform as well as a phoenix temple build due to the lower resiliency of the units, but at the same time you have a more solid shooting threat against most armies in the sisters of the watch.  That being said, this list does seem to be extra CP hungry as you want the Nomad prince's bubble, the living idols CP each combat phase, and also probably unleash hell.

However, there are also a few other lists that I want to run and see how effective they are:

Demigryph Time:
Annointed on Frostheart
Annointed on Frostheart - arcane tome, golden mist
Freeguild General on Griffon - general, free spell - golden mist
6x 3 Demigryph Knights

This army is looking to to a few things.  First of all, it is relatively fast moving, and demi's are 4 wound models on a 3+ save, meaning that if they take some damage but don't die, they can still get healed by the golden mists.  The general on griffon also has a bubble buff ability that will affect the demi's giving them +1 to charge and to hit in the combat after, while the list is still heavily armored and hard to chew through in melee.  That being said, this army would still be weak to shooting threats, and the general on griffon is an obvious target to try to take down... though realistically taking it down wouldn't make a huge impact in the performance of the list, and the new mount trait for it does still make it more annoying to deal with if your opponents choose "bring it down" or "slay the warlord".

Darkling Covens:
Annointed on Frostheart
Annointed on Frostheart
Sorceress - general
Sorceress
Assassin
Assassin
4x 10 black guard
2x 20 darkshards (or 4x 10)

This list is relying on black guard instead of phoenix guard, and taking advantage of the +1 to hit when near a sorceress ability of them.  The darkshards also give the force a shooting threat, with each squad able to put out an average of 5 damage before saves.  Overall, this is probably just a worse version of my phoenix temple list, but if you are more interested in the darkling covens it may still be a reasonable option.

Freeguild Foot:
Annointed on Frostheart
Annointed on Frostheart
Freeguild General - general
Knight-Incantor
Knight-Incantor
3x 10 Freeguild Greatswords
30 Freeguild Crossbowmen
2x 10 Freeguild Handgunners

This list is using the greatswords as an extremely dangerous melee threat, while also having a dangerous shooting component in the crossbowmen and handgunners.  The general can choose whether to buff the greatswords or the shooters, while the incantor's bring along dispell scrolls to handle AOE magic effects that could otherwise be annoying, as well as not being complete pushovers in melee like the Cities wizards would be.

[Lord Krungharr]

Ooh I like the Demigryph Knight idea.  Those are just neat models anyways and you could also totally use that with Hammerhal for flavor of the day.

[basement dweller]

On 2/23/2022 at 12:29 PM, readercolin said:

Darkling Covens:
Annointed on Frostheart
Annointed on Frostheart
Sorceress - general
Sorceress
Assassin
Assassin
4x 10 black guard
2x 20 darkshards (or 4x 10)

I like this list as i like my dark elves but agree that i think this works best with the pheonix guard due to the survivability.  

Im curious on your thoughts on the assassins.  I havent watched the video but do you think earn their points back?  Im struggling to see their value....but i do love my dark elves so would love to include them more...

 

[readercolin]

53 minutes ago, basement dweller said:

I like this list as i like my dark elves but agree that i think this works best with the pheonix guard due to the survivability.  

Im curious on your thoughts on the assassins.  I havent watched the video but do you think earn their points back?  Im struggling to see their value....but i do love my dark elves so would love to include them more...

So for me the assassins do a few things.

First, they give me enough subcommanders for a warlord battalion.  This is giving me an extra artefact that is going to assist in the survivability of my phoenix's.  Since they are 80 points a piece, I'm good paying 160 points for 2 assassins and an extra artefact rather than another unit of infantry.

Second, they start off off the board.  If I am running battlemages, or other support hero's that are starting out on the board, and are easily the weakest models I'm fielding, which makes them prime targets to be picked off in non-melee combat.  Meanwhile, the assassins are protected until the combat phase - they can't be shot, they can't be stomped, they are just hanging out until they make an appearance.  This means that they can actually get into combat and do something.

Third, due to the living idols ability, I can guarantee that the assassins attack.  One of the biggest reasons that assassins are terrible is because they are made out of glass, but generally don't actually do enough damage to take something out if they do attack.  Fight on death means that either I attack with them, or my opponent attacks them and they still get to swing before they go out.  Additionally, don't underestimate their mortal wounds on 6's to wound.  It isn't the most consistent, but if you ever get 2-3 procs of that, you are feeling really good about it, though the average 1.33 mortals off of that ability on average.

Fourth, due to how the assassins appear, you can make things really, really annoying for your opponent with them.  For example, I was able to lock a bloodthirster into combat with one unit of phoenix guard and not let him go bother a second unit, just by appearing base to base with that bloodthirster.  I have been able to have him appear between my phoenix guard and my opponents units because they were a little short on getting everyone in on the charge, forcing them to waste attacks on that assassin.  Finally, though I usually have them popping out of my phoenix guard, they can also be really helpful hopping out and assisting shadow warriors if someone tries to engage them in melee, forcing your opponent to have to over-commit to individual units of shadow warriors until after your assassins have all appeared.

Finally, I've found that the majority of the time, I proc the Vengeful Revenants ability because an assassin died.  While I wouldn't build my army around the vengeful revenants ability due to how easy it is for your opponents to play around it, if it does go off it gives a 50% boost to the damage output of my phoenix guard (9.33 avg damage before saves to 14.58 avg damage before saves).

Overall, I wouldn't say that they are vital to the list, or irreplaceable.  It is likely that you can get more out of your list with some well placed battlemages, sorceress's, or knight incantors.  However, do remember that buff magic is a bit underwhelming if you are going MSU, and you will be better served by shifting away from that style of play if you want some battlemages buffing their surrounding units.  But there is something so satisfying about saying "surprise! an assassin appears" that I really don't want to give them up when I'm having fun with them right now.

[basement dweller]

21 hours ago, readercolin said:

Overall, I wouldn't say that they are vital to the list, or irreplaceable.  It is likely that you can get more out of your list with some well placed battlemages, sorceress's, or knight incantors.  However, do remember that buff magic is a bit underwhelming if you are going MSU, and you will be better served by shifting away from that style of play if you want some battlemages buffing their surrounding units.  But there is something so satisfying about saying "surprise! an assassin appears" that I really don't want to give them up when I'm having fun with them right now.

Thank you for the super detailed response.  I can see the benefits you speak of and see all the things they can contribute...for a mere 80 points.  Vengeful revenents was my first thought when i saw the list using these, but interesting you see that as a nice when it happens but as you said, it can be worked around.  

I appreciate you reviving this thread....its nice to see people doing well with what is considered the weakest of the cities.  I need a second pheonix to pull off this army but want to try it out...

[readercolin]

So I got another game this past week with my same list against a little bit lower powered stormcast list that looked like the following:

Lord-Arcanum on Gryph Charger
Lord-Imperitant
Knight-Incantor
Knight-Vexilor with Banner of Apotheosis
5 Vindictors
3 Annihilators (grandhammers)
3 Annihilators (grandhammers)
6 Longstrikes
3 Aetherwings
3 Aetherwings
Everblaze Comet
Warlord + battle regiment

We ended up playing First Blood, and he finished deploying before I put a unit on the board.  He did a very good job of screening his longstrikes out, leaving me no room to deepstrike my shadow warriors and shoot them before he could do anything.  I started with my shadow warriors and assassins in the sky, and then my phoenix guard in 2 groups to go threaten the mid and upper objective, with the phoenix's in between.  To no ones surprise, he made me go first.

My turn 1, I did ferocious advance with some of my phoenix guard and moved my phoenix guard forward taking the upper and middle objectives, shifted my birds between, and stayed back far enough that my opponent couldn't thunderbolt volley anything without moving first.  Then I dropped some shadow warriors to shoot his incantor, and after failing to kill it charged and tried to see if they could get the job done (this would open up a bit that would let me shoot his longstrikes on turn 2).  They didn't get the job done, and lost 7 warriors to the incantor and battleshock.  Overall, I scored hold 1, hold 2, hold more, and my battle tactic, scoring 5 points.

On his turn 1, he also chose ferocious advance and dropped the comet in the middle of my phoenix guard, hitting 4 squads of guard and both birds, and did... 1 damage to each bird and killed 2 phoenix guard.  In the movement phase, he shifted forwards, toed the open objective with his gryph-charger, brought in one squad of his aetherwings near my phoenix guard, and shot a squad of them, killing 5 (bringing it down to 4 guard left).  He also failed to kill the shadow warriors in shooting, but his incantor was able to finish them off in combat.  He scored 1 objective and his battle tactic, scoring 3 points.

Turn 2, I went first, and chose monstrous takeover.  I successfully healed with golden mist, and then I shifted my phoenix guard forward more, leaving one squad toeing the upper objective with 4 models, kept my general in the middle, and shifted a squad of phoenix guard and my frostheart towards his Gryph-Charger, and then dropped a squad of shadow warriors down to shoot the gryph charger.  In the shooting phase, I shot it, but then failed to get to it with any of my charges.  I scored hold 1, hold 2, hold more, and my battle tactic, scoring 5 points, bringing me up to 10.

On his turn 2, he chose slay the warlord and decided to try to kill my flamespyre phoenix.  He opened up with a thunderbolt volley and took 9 wounds off of it, moved his general back to be barely toeing the bottom objective, and dropped a squad of annihilators down in the center, dealing a single point to my flamespyre and killing a single phoenix guard out of the 3 squads that were in the impact range.  Shooting phase, he managed to kill my flamespyre and it didn't get back up, and then he charged his annihilators in to my phoenix guard on the center objective, dragging 2 squads into combat.  Beginning of combat, I popped living idols and let him attack, and then had to laugh as he killed 3 phoenix guard from my squad of 4, and then 3 more phoenix guard from my squad of 8, and lost 5 wounds off his annihilators in retaliation.  Overall he failed to take the objective, scored hold 1, battle tactic, and killed a monster for 4 points, bringing him up to 7.

On turn 3, he won the rolloff, and I took off the one objective that he controlled.  He chose broken ranks on my single phoenix guard, and figured he could kill it in melee.  He brought down his second squad of annihilators, and killed 1 phoenix guard with entry hit, and then shot at one of my squads of guard with his longstrikes, taking out 4 more guard.  Charging killed 1 more, leaving me in the center with a squad of 1 guard, a squad of 4 guard, and a squad of 9 guard engaged with his 5 annihilators.  Beginning of combat, I popped living idols and out came 2 assassins.  He swung at my single guard (that he chose broken ranks on), and at my squad of 4 guard, and 1 of my assassins, and killed 2 from my unit of 4, failing to kill the broken ranks unit.  I retaliated with an assassin against his un-wounded unit of annihilators and killed one.  He responded back by swinging into the now 2 guard and both assasins, and dealt 3 damage to one assassin and killed the squad of 2 guard (but again, not the broken ranks squad as it wasn't in range for that unit to swing at).  I then proceeded to take his first squad of annihilators down to 1, and dealt 4 damage to his second squad.  End of turn, he scored 0 points.

On my turn 3, I chose broken Ranks on one of his squads of annihilators.  I brought down my last squad of shadow warriors (still unable to shoot his longstrikes), and then moved around a little bit.  My phoenix and a squad of guard got into his vindictors which had been moving towards the center objective, and I shot at his general a little bit more with my shadow warriors, failing to kill it.  In combat, I killed both his annihilators, his vindictors, 3 aether wings, and lost both assassins and both damaged squads of phoenix guard.  I failed to kill his annihilators with a monster though, so I scored 5 points, bringing it 15-7 in my favor, and leaving him with his hero's, longstrikes and a squad of aetherwings left.

Turn 4, he went first and tried bring it down.  He threw his general and everything else at my frostheart, but failed to kill it, scoring 0 points.  I took slay the warlord, killed his gryph-charger (his warlord), and got some units into melee with his vanguard raptors, leaving us 20-7 at the bottom of 4 where we called it, as there was no way for him to come back OR to achieve his consolation prize of killing my other bird.

----------------

Overall, my opponent could probably improve his army by getting a relictor instead of the Knight-Vexilor, and a 3rd squad of annihilators over the vindictors and comet (at which point it would basically be the Annihilana Grande list, but with a gryph charger instead of a Knight-Judicator).  As it was though, this game continued to show just how powerful the "Living Idols" command ability is, and once again I had a single combat phase where "Vengeful Revenants" kicked in and actually did something.

This continues to reinforce to me that the way to get the most out of a Phoenicium list, you want to be playing to take advantage of Living Idols.  MSU units can take advantage of this in multiple ways, as your opponent has to carefully figure out how to split attacks and can't just throw everything into a single unit like they can if you have a squad of 20-30 guys.  However, at this point I can say that there isn't a huge advantage of doing MSU over doing some big hammers.  But at the same time, as you start going with bigger units, the question comes up of why do that in the Phoenicium rather than just running a living city list.  I intend to continue playing around with it as I'm having fun, but you do need to constantly ask yourself if another city could do what you want better.

[basement dweller]

So based on this thread i was inspired to fire up a Phoenician list.  I played 1500 versus Luminith tonight to try things out.

 

I went with the following:

Annointed on Frost Phoenix with arcane tome

Hurricanum

2 assassins

3 x 10 units phoenix guard

10 shadow warriors

Scourgerunner chariot

 

He has teclis, 2x 10 wardens, 20 sentinels, lifeswarm, twin stones

 

The game was super fun.  We callled it a draw after 4 turns as time ran out on us.  Could have gone either way as we were tied on points.  Teclis has 1 would and my phoenix had 5.  All 3 phoenix guard units were alive and my shadow warriors were dying to the sentinals.

My magic was shut down all game  and my Hurricanum was killed turned 2 by elf bows.  I was also held back by all command abilities requiring 2 command points.  Really hurt my ability to get off living idols.

What did i learn?

List is super fun.  The assassins are great in this army as they are scary enough that your opponent willl often deal with them too soon...and then units of phoenix guard are hitting and wounding on 2s.  I think they are key piece to make this army go.

1 phoenix is not enough....you need the redundancy and coverage.  With 1 i was struggling to pull off the command ability that makes this list tick.  That said 4 phoenix guard died and their dying attacks ensured i held the objective qnd kept me in the game.

As others have said, the 4+ ward save makes people devote too much to kill the phoenix guard...or they dont die qnd just keep hanging around.  I kinda want a 4th unit.

Shadow warriors feel key to tie up/ take down shooters...but i am going to try it without them.  They are really useful but not as deadly as i want (ive used them before this game and felt the same).

I think small, fragile non-battleline units help this army go.  Those assassins die and your other units get soo much better.  Im going to try to squeeze in some more small units to see of i can trigger the +1/+1 a little more. Maybe a sacrificial gyrocoptor as someone suggested..or more chariots.

Not sure on the hurricanum in this list.  It brings mortals for sure...but just another unit you need to keep in your bubble.  Im leaning towards a nomad prince and some wildwood rangers.  This would give you a scary blob that can work with or independent of the phoenixes when needed.  Maybe executioners and a sorceress.

Looking forward to taking them out again next week.

[readercolin]

So I got another Phoenicium game in, and this time I decided to lean on the power of Phoenix Guard and ignore the Vengeful Revenants ability.  This is the list that I brought:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Phoenicium
Anointed on Flamespyre Phoenix (290)
- General
- Command Trait: One with Fire and Ice - Golden Mist
- Artefact: Phoenix Pyre Ashes
Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix (315)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
Knight-Incantor (125)**
- Lore of the Phoenix: Golden Mist
Assassin (80)**
Assassin (80)**
20 x Phoenix Guard (350)*
20 x Phoenix Guard (350)*
20 x Phoenix Guard (350)*
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
*Hunters of the Heartlands
**Command Entourage - Magnificent
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 101
Drops: 8

So as you can see from this, the core of my army was built around 2 phoenixes and 3 blocks of phoenix guard.  I also brought along the emerald lifeswarm to make anyone trying to kill a unit of phoenix guard truly miserable.

I ended up playing someone with an annihilator + longstrikes list on Savage Gains.  They deployed off to one side with their longstrikes and screens, and stuck their annihilators in the sky, then made me go first.  I auto-ran 1 unit of phoenix guard onto my right objective, and then proceeded to roll 1's on every single other run role, but I did manage to turn the incantor into a monster for the run 3 tactic, scoring 6 points.  On their turn, they shot my right squad of phoenix guard, and otherwise shifted around a bit, scoring 3 points.

Turn 2 I got in with 2 squads of phoenix guard and both phoenixes.  I failed to kill his screens, but was able to pile in enough to tag his longstrikes.  However, I easily took all 4 objectives and completed my battle tactic of aggressive expansion, scoring me 11 points.  On his turn, he failed to kill the last of the phoenix guard, brought his annihilators down, and failed his charges.  Additionally, he failed his battle tactic of broken ranks, and scored 0 points.

Turn 3, I went first, and we could have called it, but he wanted to kill my squad of phoenix guard.  So I got the emerald lifeswarm off, and brought 3 models back to the unit (there had been 1 guy remaining).  I then finished off his raptors and popped my assassins out, and 1 squad of phoenix guard charged a unit of annihilators while the other unit was charged by my frostheart phoenix.  At the end of my turn, he was left with 2 hero's, 2 squads of aetherwings, and 0 objectives.  On his turn, he finally killed that squad of phoenix guard with one of his hero's and we called it.

Overall, I think this build once again showed the power of the Living Idols ability, as I could sometimes attack twice with my models, and phoenix guard continued to show their power as an incredible anvil.  The lack of shooting in this list is going to cause some issues in some matchups, but at the same time this list is 86 wounds with a 4+ ward, or effectively the equivalent of 187 wounds total, which is a lot for many armies to chew through.  The lack of Vengeful Revenants was not noticed at all, and the assassins could easily be replaced by any number of other things, though I would appreciate a hero still so you can get the extra enhancement.  Emerald Lifeswarm + phoenix guard still remains busted as ever though.

The big question is whether I would consider bringing this list to a tournament though.  I think that if I wasn't expecting a lot of highly mobile shooting (KO, Idoneth, lumineth fox builds, etc.) that this would be a decent contender, but there is enough fragile shooting armies out there that I would really miss my shadow warriors.  As a skew build that demands an answer, it does its job well, and other melee heavy armies are going to cry if they hit the brick wall that is a block of 20 phoenix guard.  But I had less objective control with this list vs my other one, and I don't think that a build like this really has the chops to go 5-0.  On the other hand, dropping a block of phoenix guard for some cheaper battleline and shooting is actually a reasonable possibility, and I would still consider it worth it to run the phoenicium in that regard as the 20 man blocks with fight on death are still a right pain to fight through.

[Skreech Verminking]

On 2/12/2022 at 6:41 AM, readercolin said:

Did you watch the interview?  He specifically said that his list would be straight up worse in any other city.

Also, have you actually tried a list with the phoenicium?  Or are you just parroting the same stuff that has been said about the city since it was released in 2nd edition?

And yes, he didn't win - he came in 4th at a 170+ person event, went 5-0 in the swiss and lost in the semi-finals - effectively going 6-1 in the entire event.

Swiss? last time I checked there were zero 170+  person events in switzerland.

Are you certain that your not talking about a different place?

Edit: the last big event in Switzerland just had under 30 person, and the winner was a skaven player using a seraphon army.

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Skreech Verminking

[readercolin]

7 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Swiss? last time I checked there were zero 170+  person events in switzerland.

Are you certain that your not talking about a different place?

Edit: the last big event in Switzerland just had under 30 person, and the winner was a skaven player using a seraphon army.

 

Swiss, as in tournament format.  Aka, the format used for the event, where you get paired up with someone else based on your record (so if you go 1-0, you are paired up with someone else who went 1-0, at 2-0 you get paired up with someone else who went 2-0, etc.).

[Jd_Esquire]

1 hour ago, readercolin said:

Swiss, as in tournament format.  Aka, the format used for the event, where you get paired up with someone else based on your record (so if you go 1-0, you are paired up with someone else who went 1-0, at 2-0 you get paired up with someone else who went 2-0, etc.).

I’m sure this is because of a language difference but this made me laugh pretty good.

[basement dweller]

On 3/20/2022 at 9:43 PM, readercolin said:

The big question is whether I would consider bringing this list to a tournament though.  I think that if I wasn't expecting a lot of highly mobile shooting (KO, Idoneth, lumineth fox builds, etc.) that this would be a decent contender, but there is enough fragile shooting armies out there that I would really miss my shadow warriors.  

I really dont see a build of this army that can work (against all armies) without the shadow warriors.  I want a little more out of them, but you need that mobility and something that can get to those shooters reliably...dont know we have much (anything) else that can do it without the bridge or using living city.

Im running Jeremy's list against Kragnos and some orcs on thursday.  I will see if i can make it work.  Im concerned about the lack of mortals and the lack of screens.  Hoping the chariot and the shadow warriors can fill that role.

 @readercolinHave you felt your list (original) lacking in the mortal damage area against the big tanks?  Jeremys list has the hurricanum for this but im not sold on it as i think it will die first every game...id rather give more targets and some more chaff.  While i agree the fire phoenix feels less optimal compared to the frost, your fire brings that mortal damage help.

I only have 30 phoenix guard painted so cant go with more of them.  I do like the idea of swapping the hurricanum for a battlemage and some more chariots...maybe...giving me more mobility, screening and maybe some mortals with 3 chariots instead of 1 shooting at the same thing.

I have a day to ponder...