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Gutbusters for warcry


Moonlightwolf

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I was sad my chonky boys didn't get rules for warcry so I decided to make my own.

I present my Gutbusters rules for warcry. Still in the process of testing them but thought I'd let them loose on the world. Would appreciate any constructive criticism especially RE the model costs and the abilities. The idea is that they are a very hard hitting force but with low numbers that need to use the very low powered grots to delay the enemy and set them up for the ogor's charges. Once I've got these guys sorted I'm planning to make some mercenaries for them (butcher, tyrant, maneater).

Few samples below

Gutbusters Warcry.pdf

WarcryOgorCard.png

WarcryOgorTotemCard.png

WarcryGrotCard.png

Edited by Moonlightwolf
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The cards look great. The ogors are way undercosted though. Comparing them to the 200 point brute with gore hacka from the Ironjawz, the ogor with dual weapons does about 60% more damage, has 66% more movement and taking into account the higher wounds but lower toughness has approximately 10% less survivability than brutes. Having played ironjawz i know that mobility and bodies are huge weaknesses that are tradeoffs for their power in combat. Currently these stat cards lack any significant weaknesses to offset considerably more powerful combat stats than even the IJ brutes, having an above average movement stat and the option to take cheap bodies in the form of gnoblars. Either the ogors have to be costed way higher, or their stats need to be toned down a lot (this is the route i would i would go). Stat changes i would suggest on the base ogor are dropping movement to 4 and changing the attack profile to 1, 3, 5, 3/6. Still faster than the brutes and with the same damage output as the gore hacka, this would still leave the base ogor as a higher value model than the 200 point brute. I havent looked into the abilities much though.

EDIT: your cards got me thinking about this and im putting together my own homebrew gutbuster stats including ironguts and the tyrant as an ally. Might update when im finished. I liked the abilities you came up with and am sticking with those exactly as they are.

Edited by ccconner777
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These are much too strong. As a warband of big hefty guys accompanied by their tiny allies, the best comparison to make for Ogors is the Flesh-Eater Courts – which are already considered a pretty strong warband. Compared to a Crypt Horror, your basic Ogor Glutton has -1Move and +1 Strength, +2 Damage, and +2 Crit. And you've costed them at +10pts more. That's insane – they've got easily the most powerful attack profile in the game.

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17 minutes ago, Revlid said:

These are much too strong. As a warband of big hefty guys accompanied by their tiny allies, the best comparison to make for Ogors is the Flesh-Eater Courts – which are already considered a pretty strong warband. Compared to a Crypt Horror, your basic Ogor Glutton has -1Move and +1 Strength, +2 Damage, and +2 Crit. And you've costed them at +10pts more. That's insane – they've got easily the most powerful attack profile in the game.

I think amadeus is closer to the right mark. Id say the glutton leader still needs to be at least as expensive as an IJ brute boss (the premium paid on leaders accounts for their extra ability, not just higher stats), so probably 260. I just discovered the template file for making custom cards so im gonna put my stats i wrote up yesterday into cards tonight. I balanced my own stats around mainly IJ and some Iron Golems stats but the FEC perspective with having access to cheap objective grabbers/chaff would be valuable too so I will take a look at them too. I'll post what ive got when i get it ready.

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2 hours ago, ccconner777 said:

I think amadeus is closer to the right mark. Id say the glutton leader still needs to be at least as expensive as an IJ brute boss (the premium paid on leaders accounts for their extra ability, not just higher stats), so probably 260. I just discovered the template file for making custom cards so im gonna put my stats i wrote up yesterday into cards tonight. I balanced my own stats around mainly IJ and some Iron Golems stats but the FEC perspective with having access to cheap objective grabbers/chaff would be valuable too so I will take a look at them too. I'll post what ive got when i get it ready.

I'd say Amadeus is actually overcosting Gluttons by a significant margin. Compared to say, a Blood Sister, the Glutton has -3M, +10W, and deals about 2-3 extra damage per attack action. Call it +25 for the Wounds, +50 for the damage, and -35 for the Move, and I make that out to be around 205pts. Compared to a Crypt Horror it has -2M, has +1R on its attacks, and deals about 0.5-2 extra damage per attack action. Call it -25 for the Move, +10 for the Range, and +30 for the damage, and you're looking at... about 205 again.

Hell, compare them to my own Gluttons, who sit at 175pts each - though I've considered bumping them up to 180pts. -1M, +1R, and +0.5-2D. Call it -15 for the Move, +10 for the Range, and +30 for the Damage, and the total is 200pts. Sure, pricing is an art rather than a science, but it's definitely not 230.

Plus there are just a bunch of weird choices here. Ogre Gluttons being S5 and D2/5 means they're strong, yes, but it also means they're specifically good at taking down high-Toughness targets, because they wound T5 on 4s and do 5D on a Toughness-ignoring crit. Compared to a S4, D2/4 fighter (a much more common profile) this Glutton averages +2D per attack action against T4/5 targets... and +0.66D per attack action against T3. You're paying a bunch of extra points for the Glutton to be good at opening tin cans, but I can't figure out why it's meant to be good at that.

M4 and R2 is also weird. Ogors are typically a pretty fast group; the Iron Golem Ogor is M4, but he's laden down with heavy armour and belongs to a low-Move faction to begin with.  M4 puts Ogors among the Grots and Humans. R2 is primarily useful for kiting enemies; attacking them from outside their melee range (or while they're bogged down in melee) so that they have to waste a move action getting to you. That's clearly not what Gluttons are meant to do, and it doesn't reflect their AoS profile either.

Edited by Revlid
Correcting formatting.
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1 hour ago, Revlid said:

I'd say Amadeus is actually overcosting Gluttons by a significant margin. Compared to say, a Blood Sister, the Glutton has -3M, +10W, and deals about 2-3 extra damage per attack action. Call it +25 for the Wounds, +50 for the damage, and -35 for the Move, and I make that out to be around 205pts. Compared to a Crypt Horror it has -2M, has +1R on its attacks, and deals about 0.5-2 extra damage per attack action. Call it -25 for the Move, +10 for the Range, and +30 for the damage, and you're looking at... about 205 again.

Hell, compare them to my own Gluttons, who sit at 175pts each - though I've considered bumping them up to 180pts. -1M, +1R, and +0.5-2D. Call it -15 for the Move, +10 for the Range, and +30 for the Damage, and the total is 200pts. Sure, pricing is an art rather than a science, but it's definitely not 230.

Plus there are just a bunch of weird choices here. Ogre Gluttons being S5 and D2/5 means they're strong, yes, but it also means they're specifically good at taking down high-Toughness targets, because they wound T5 on 4s and do 5D on a Toughness-ignoring crit. Compared to a S4, D2/4 fighter (a much more common profile) this Glutton averages +2D per attack action against T4/5 targets... and +0.66D per attack action against T3. You're paying a bunch of extra points for the Glutton to be good at opening tin cans, but I can't figure out why it's meant to be good at that.

M4 and R2 is also weird. Ogors are typically a pretty fast group; the Iron Golem Ogor is M4, but he's laden down with heavy armour and belongs to a low-Move faction to begin with.  M4 puts Ogors among the Grots and Humans. R2 is primarily useful for kiting enemies; attacking them from outside their melee range (or while they're bogged down in melee) so that they have to waste a move action getting to you. That's clearly not what Gluttons are meant to do, and it doesn't reflect their AoS profile 

I didnt notice the 2 range on their attacks and agree that isnt appropriate. You make some other good points as well which i am considering in my version of the cards. I think lowering gluttons to strength 4 attacks opens up opportunity to put in ironguts and actually have them be distinct as better against high toughness (also they will be toughness 5 themselves and have 2" range). Also having looked at the FEC cards i agree that 4" is too slow for ogors and 5" is a better place for them to be. Currently my gluttons are move 5, toughness 4, 30 wounds with 1R, 4 attacks, 4 strength, 2/5 damage for 190 points. Slightly slower than horrors with slightly more damage at the same cost. faster than brutes with slightly lower overall survivability and slightly higher  damage for a little more expensive. The biggest challenge i think will be leadbelchers. There just isnt anything else quite like them to compare to directly.

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I actually did a lot of research on these guys, honestly I don't feel like they are even appropriate at all for warcry but I was asked to do it so there it is.

I used the ogroid thaumaturge and the ogre from the Iron Golems as a base starting point.  and both of  them are about on par with what you see here.

I tried to create a unit who's stats reflect it's lore, not going to far overboard.  this isn't a unit based on optimal game play it's a unit based on what an Ogre would really look and act like in this kind of a setting

ogres are big and slow compared to other smaller faster things. I get that what we are dealing with here is the plebs of their vanguard in AOS but in warcry we don't deal in elites so these guys need some measure of weakness and lets face it they aren't that fast when compared to Idoneth, Daughters of Khaine or even Stormcast hell just about every other war-band would be faster than them, because in this setting they don't need to be fast.  so to reflect this they have a lower speed in the game. 

Also compared again to other rank and file of the AOS world these guys hit like beasts and most other races (even Orks )give the ogres a wide birth on principle. they know how hard these guys hit.  mostly based on their size. they are HUGE so this gives them a longer reach thus the 2" range it just makes sense they are bigger and can reach further.  

seeing as to how a typical war-band is around a thousand points, this would mean that you would only really be able to bring two ogres, the cat and about 7 gnoblars. or you can sacrifice the gnoblars and bring another cat but probably not another Ogre.

If you bring three ogres that's pretty much your whole warband you will loose almost every mission especially against grots or daughters of Khaine or really anyone who can bring bodies and out maneuver you.  A lot of the missions are get your guys here first or grab that objective or get more objectives than your opponent. Ogres are going to SUFFER badly in this capacity. they just don't have the numbers. Gnoblars are so weak that they can't really be effective at anything other than gabbing stuff and running. if they get stuck in they get wiped out. 
 this means that the Ogres (of which there will most often only be two) have to hit like a runaway freight train the cat is only there for interception and pinning purposes but won't be able to hold it's own if it's ganged up on and the gnoblars are ONLY for grabbing objectives as they can be one shotted by most of the other units in almost every other warband. 

Warcry is a super tactics and mostly Luck game and again I don't think Ogres really belong here as a warband but this was the best I could come up with.  

Edited by Amadeus
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7 hours ago, ccconner777 said:

Maybe im out of the loop but is there a program or something you guys are using to make these cards?

I am using Photoshop, i'm a graphic designer so it's pretty easy for me  i'm working on putting together a pdf of the stuff I've done so far

 

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So here's what I ended up with. I focused on comparing each unit to multiple others in other warbands to try to balance right. I mathed out damage amounts to make sure i didnt go overboard on attack profiles. Gonna test it in a game this weekend.

The warband ill be using is a gutlord, an irongut, a leadbelcher and 5 gnoblars for a total of 975pts.

Glutton 5M 4T 30W 190pt

1R 4At 4S 2/5dmg

Crusher (leader) 5m 4t 40w 250pt

1r 4at 4s 3/6dmg

Irongut 5m 5t 30w 230pt

2r 3at 5s 3/6dmg

Gutlord (leader) 5m 5t 40w 270pt

2r 3at 6s 4/6dmg

Leadbelcher 5m 4t 30w 200pt

3-10r 2at 4s 3/6dmg

1r 3at 4s 2/4dmg

Thunderfist (leader) 5m 4t 40w 250pt

3-10r 2at 4s 3/6dmg

1r 4at 4s 2/4dmg

Gnoblar 4m 3t 8w 55pt

1r 3at 3s 1/3dmg

Tyrant (ally) 5m 5t 42w 270pt

2r 3at 6s 4/8dmg

Unique quad ability "Might Makes Right": Friendly ogor models (to word it right youd have to reference the proper runemarks but i havent looked at those yet) within 3" of this model count as 2 models when determining control of objectives at the end of this battle round.

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11 hours ago, Amadeus said:

I actually did a lot of research on these guys, honestly I don't feel like they are even appropriate at all for warcry but I was asked to do it so there it is.

I used the ogroid thaumaturge and the ogre from the Iron Golems as a base starting point.  and both of  them are about on par with what you see here.

I tried to create a unit who's stats reflect it's lore, not going to far overboard.  this isn't a unit based on optimal game play it's a unit based on what an Ogre would really look and act like in this kind of a setting

Okay, but the Ogroid is a Hero and the Iron Golems Ogor is an elite centrepiece model. A better comparison point would be the Flesh-Eater Courts, who have a roster of giant Ogor-sized Crypt Horrors plus smaller Gnoblar-sized Ghouls – and work just fine as a warband.

Quote

 

ogres are big and slow compared to other smaller faster things. I get that what we are dealing with here is the plebs of their vanguard in AOS but in warcry we don't deal in elites so these guys need some measure of weakness and lets face it they aren't that fast when compared to Idoneth, Daughters of Khaine or even Stormcast hell just about every other war-band would be faster than them, because in this setting they don't need to be fast.  so to reflect this they have a lower speed in the game. 

 

...no, Ogors are faster than average and always have been. Stormcast are Move 5, the same as regular Humans or Grots. Ogors are Move 6, the same as regular Aelves – including Witch Aelves and Namarti Thralls. The unstoppable Ogor charge has always been a thing in the lore and mechanics.

Quote

 

Also compared again to other rank and file of the AOS world these guys hit like beasts and most other races (even Orks )give the ogres a wide birth on principle. they know how hard these guys hit.  mostly based on their size. they are HUGE so this gives them a longer reach thus the 2" range it just makes sense they are bigger and can reach further.  

 

Okay, but no other Ogor or Ogor-sized model in the game has a 2" range. The Iron Golems Ogor doesn't, the Ironjawz Brutes don't, and the Flesh-Eater Courts Crypt Horrors/Haunters don't. It's just these guys – and the effect isn't that enemies give them a wide berth, it's that enemies need to spend an action to move in before attacking them. I appreciate what you're saying, but it doesn't work the way you say.

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5 hours ago, Revlid said:

Okay, but no other Ogor or Ogor-sized model in the game has a 2" range. The Iron Golems Ogor doesn't, the Ironjawz Brutes don't, and the Flesh-Eater Courts Crypt Horrors/Haunters don't. It's just these guys – and the effect isn't that enemies give them a wide berth, it's that enemies need to spend an action to move in before attacking them. I appreciate what you're saying, but it doesn't work the way you say.

Reading this im now thinking maybe i should cut the range of the attacks on my ironguts, gutlord and tyrant to 1. Every other 2-3 range attack in the game has a significant decreased damage vs a comparable model's 1 range attack to balance it and my ironguts hit as hard as a brute with a gore hacka (the big one). However they do cost 30 points more, though their faster move and higher wounds is probably enough to account for this. And i suppose a 1" reach model can still attack over a 25mm base as long as everyone is right up in base to base contact since 1" is slighly more than 25mm right? So 1" ogors can still theoretically attack over the heads of gnoblars? They are just such long polearm weapons that it feels wrong to not have the range (i know brutes polearms are also 1" too but these are notably longer) and ironguts do have a 2" range in aos. Thoughts? 

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7 hours ago, Revlid said:

but the Ogroid is a Hero and the Iron Golems Ogor is an elite centrepiece model.

I guess that's the problem I'm having with Ogres in general. They are basically an army of elites.

even in warhammer fantasy we would call the brick of ogre bulls the "pain train" the only way you could deal with them was shooting them ****** out of them or magic them into submission in most cases BOTH!  (dwellers below and a purple sun followed by some word of pain!) and even then it was super hard to do enough damage to make them manageable for your super elites to deal with. and that was their basic guys? 

      I have loads of stories about how my Black guard or even my Harganeth Executioners got stomped by basic ogres.... let me say that again Basic troops stomped my elites on more than one occasion... so ya, that's just Ogres.  They are and army of elites. 

I think they tried to make them more manageable in AOS but then just gave up. the Dirty Snowball thing is absolutely ridiculous and I guess is should be said point for point they are (or rather were ) savagely overpowered.  I haven't read their new army book yet, My hope is they castrated the army and made it more manageable as a playable entity. the way it was before was borderline ridiculous.  I watched an Ogre army table a fleet of Kharadron overlords before the overlords second turn.  They only got one round of shooting and didn't kill anything. it was one of the worst games of AOS I think I have ever seen. 

to illustrate further,  if you go onto GW site there really is only one unit of "basic guys" and suddenly everyone is an individual character or terrifying elite, the Man eaters are a one man army, so much so they are sculpted individually.  

Lead belchers shouldn't even be a thing. I remember talking to a GW rep who had said they regretted making half this army because in the right combinations they were pretty unstoppable. 

The thing is Lore-wise they really wouldn't be wandering around with one or two ogres in the Varenspire or even in a small warband. if there was something to conquer and eat then they would come in mass and crush everything in their path until they hit something they couldn't kill and eat. they are destruction after all.  Game play they are just to over powered to be a warband in warcry? 

so ya This is why I don't feel like they even work at all in WarCry even the basic guys are super elites? 

thank you for coming to my Ted Talk 😛

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1 minute ago, Amadeus said:

I guess that's the problem I'm having with Ogres in general. They are basically an army of elites.

Yes, they are. Just like Stormcast, Ironjawz, and Flesh-Eater Courts. Those all seem to work fine in Warcry; and while FEC and SCE are top-tier, that's because of the latter's ranged firepower and low costing, and the former's stronger-than-average abilities, not because they're big guys. Hell, Ironjawz are typically considered one of the weaker warbands.

Ogors are absolutely doable in Warcry. Hell, I just did them in another thread on this forum. Check it out.

even in warhammer fantasy we would call the brick of ogre bulls the "pain train" the only way you could deal with them was shooting them ****** out of them or magic them into submission in most cases BOTH!  (dwellers below and a purple sun followed by some word of pain!) and even then it was super hard to do enough damage to make them manageable for your super elites to deal with. and that was their basic guys?

I played Ogre Kingdoms from 6e-7e, and trust me, they were not overpowered. They sat on the lower end of 6e armies, alongside Bretonnia and Tomb Kings. No-one took Ogres to tournaments expecting to romp home to victory.

I don't know what GW rep you spoke to, but he was probably just trying to sell you Ogors. Leadbelchers spent all of WHFB being decently useful flank-guards good only for taking down light cavalry and skirmishers, and hit the dizzying heights of "pretty okay short range gunners" in time for AOS.

I'm baffled by the idea that Ogor Gluttons are insanely OP elites (who would also never show up anywhere except in a massive horde), but Crypt Horrors - who are just straight-up better than Gluttons - aren't. Or Orruk Brutes - who trade 1W for 1Sv and hit harder than Gluttons. It just seems like a really weird bias on your part.

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well first I really like the atheistic of Ogres and I'm currently reading their new batteltomb. 

I can only speak to my experiences with on the battlefield and what I have seen  so crunching numbers is kind of pointless I suppose,   that whole what should be and what actually happens thing, 

So Orks aren't ogres, according to the Lore Ogres are a little bigger stronger and more regenerative? at least that's what this batteltomb is hinting at.  Iron Jaws hit really hard but lack the bodies to be super effective in warcry I think they have to rely on their waagh ability to much to just get around.  but that's what stops them from being a super powerhouse in a game that's focusing on small chaos tribes. 

   FEC aren't ogres? they would and do have a completely different dynamic and atheistic ? but  all in all they are just little toys and you can assign any stats you want to them?  I feel like (meaning this is my own opinion and doesn't really matter I suppose )to make them fit more with their Lore they would be big centerpiece guys. It seems that they mercenary themselves out or get loured by chaos quite a bit,  In Mordheim you could hire an ogre mercenary but and Ogre warband would be ridiculous. and to me Warcry is a less developed Mordheim and so there you have it.  

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2 hours ago, Amadeus said:

So Orks aren't ogres, according to the Lore Ogres are a little bigger stronger and more regenerative? at least that's what this batteltomb is hinting at.  Iron Jaws hit really hard but lack the bodies to be super effective in warcry I think they have to rely on their waagh ability to much to just get around.  but that's what stops them from being a super powerhouse in a game that's focusing on small chaos tribes. 

   FEC aren't ogres? they would and do have a completely different dynamic and atheistic ? but  all in all they are just little toys and you can assign any stats you want to them?  I feel like (meaning this is my own opinion and doesn't really matter I suppose )to make them fit more with their Lore they would be big centerpiece guys. It seems that they mercenary themselves out or get loured by chaos quite a bit,  In Mordheim you could hire an ogre mercenary but and Ogre warband would be ridiculous. and to me Warcry is a less developed Mordheim and so there you have it.  

Okay, let me lay this out more directly.

  • Crypt Horror: Move 7, Wounds 4, Save 5+. 3 Attacks, Hit 4+, Wound 3+, Rend -0, Damage 2. OK FOR WARCRY!
  • Orruk Brute: Move 4, Wounds 3, Save 4+. 4 Attacks, Hit 3+, Wound 3+, Rend -1, Damage 1. OK FOR WARCRY!
  • Ogor Glutton. Move 5, Wounds 4, Save 5+. 3 Attacks, Hit 3+, Wound 3+, Rend -0, Damage 2. TOO ELITE FOR WARCRY!

Do you see where I'm having trouble understanding your perspective?

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