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PiotrW

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I think the most important question is to ask yourself is how likely are you to attend an officially organised tournament?  If the answer is "unlikely" then I don't think the latest announcement really need worry you, just play with the cards you have with your friends and jobs a good 'un.  Longer term, those older boxes won't be available and we're already seeing GW change the cards being packaged with warbands etc so it can only improve.

If you're wanting to play tournaments and recently picked up the one of the "marked" boxed to do this, then speak to GW and I'm fairly sure they'll help to sort you out.

I think the people who are going to be affected the most are casual people who might fancy playing a tournament at some point.  I picked up Shadespire, but never really managed to get going with it (too many distractions rather than a lack of interest).  This means if I did decide to pick it up more seriously, I'm almost starting from scratch - though nothing stopping me playing with friends at home.

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After release of Nightvault I gave up the idea of truly commiting to competetive WU, and with only 2 seasons rotation there is also no point in doing that because my main game is AoS and just 2 years is not nearly enough to me to paint warbands and practice, so I'll just play casually with all the cards buying warbands that I like.

EDIT: Also it just happens that I like Wild Hunt warband so no problems with buying starter set

Edited by XReN
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6 hours ago, Moldek said:

Also they do actually sell the tokens separately, a bit pricey but still a reasonable purchase if you do want / need them :

https://www.games-workshop.com/fr-FR/Beastgrave-Counter-Set-2019

it’s true that it would be cool if they sold / gave away the rule book though...

Those tokens actually don't come in the core box, which does seem a bit cheap on GW's part. 

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Yeah, I checked. The tokens sold separately are not the same tokens that are included in the core set.

Anyway... thank you for all your thoughts, guys. I've chewed on this matter for some time and I've decided go with a split box deal. Turns out, there are plenty of people interested in buying just the new minis, without the rest of the Beastgrave contents. So, I can update Nightvault to Beastgrave cheaper than I expected...

As I understand, I can expect that Beastgrave will feature two sets of cards, one for each warband? And the universal cards in both sets will be the same? That was the case with Nightvault. If so, I could snatch the updated core set of universal cards and still sell somebody one complete warband with a full card set...

 

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22 hours ago, PiotrW said:

Yeah, I checked. The tokens sold separately are not the same tokens that are included in the core set.

So, the wound counters in the Beastgrave set have some token art on the reverse. Alternatively, glass beads, coins, or any other kind of counter can be used for the tokens. The separate token set is simply for those that want to buy fancy tokens for specific warbands.

 

22 hours ago, PiotrW said:

As I understand, I can expect that Beastgrave will feature two sets of cards, one for each warband? And the universal cards in both sets will be the same? That was the case with Nightvault. If so, I could snatch the updated core set of universal cards and still sell somebody one complete warband with a full card set...

Beastgrave contains 32 faction specific cards (12 objectives, 10 gambits, 10 upgrades) for each of the 2 warbands in the set. All warbands moving forward will have 32 faction specific cards with this split enabling players to play a complete deck of faction specifics, meaning that no matter how many universal cards are rotated out, you will ALWAYS be able to play a full deck of a single faction by buying that faction's expansion. The current hope is that there will be a card pack released to update the rest of the currently released 16 warbands to this model (as some are missing enough faction specific objectives).

There are 2 sets of 19 Universal cards in the Beastgrave set, so you could sell one set of them and still have the updated universal cards (there are a couple of new ones in there).

 

Also, all the rules changes have been documented extensively in the various Underworlds blogs. Check out canyourollacrit's Beastgrave review. His is pretty clear on the changes.

Edited by riddlesworth
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1 hour ago, riddlesworth said:

There are 2 sets of 19 Universal cards in the Beastgrave set, so you could sell one set of them and still have the updated universal cards (there are a couple of new ones in there).

I see. My question is: are these two sets of 19 cards completely the same? Or do they feature different universal cards?

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1 minute ago, PiotrW said:

I see. My question is: are these two sets of 19 cards completely the same? Or do they feature different universal cards?

They are exactly the same. The universal cards in the Beastgrave core set are:

Anihilation

Conquest

Denial

Hold Objective 1

Hold Objective 2

Hold Objective 3

Hold Objective 4

Hold Objective 5 

Supremacy

Confusion

Eldritch Haze

Marked

Sidestep

Snare

Caltrops

Great Fortitude

Great Speed

Great Strength

Predatory Instinct

You get 2 copies of each.

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4 hours ago, riddlesworth said:

 

Beastgrave contains 32 faction specific cards (12 objectives, 10 gambits, 10 upgrades) for each of the 2 warbands in the set. All warbands moving forward will have 32 faction specific cards with this split enabling players to play a complete deck of faction specifics, meaning that no matter how many universal cards are rotated out, you will ALWAYS be able to play a full deck of a single faction by buying that faction's expansion. The current hope is that there will be a card pack released to update the rest of the currently released 16 warbands to this model (as some are missing enough faction specific objectives).

 

Interesting. If those hopes are fulfilled, do you think we will see a format where you have to play all warbands with the deck that comes with it?

I know it sounds very limiting, but it will ease the "Gotta catch 'em all" feeling that stops some people from getting more involved with the game.
 Of course for those who enjoy the deck building aspect it would suck, but something like that won't replace other formats (After all, GW wants you to buy all the cards).

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4 minutes ago, Jator said:

Interesting. If those hopes are fulfilled, do you think we will see a format where you have to play all warbands with the deck that comes with it?

I know it sounds very limiting, but it will ease the "Gotta catch 'em all" feeling that stops some people from getting more involved with the game.
 Of course for those who enjoy the deck building aspect it would suck, but something like that won't replace other formats (After all, GW wants you to buy all the cards).

I'm happy with 3 ways to play. Relic and open tournaments would be interesting but j dont know how successful they'll be. Depends on local support, so I wouldn't speculate on a format that would exclude the first 16 warbands until they are updated

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5 minutes ago, Jator said:

Interesting. If those hopes are fulfilled, do you think we will see a format where you have to play all warbands with the deck that comes with it?

I know it sounds very limiting, but it will ease the "Gotta catch 'em all" feeling that stops some people from getting more involved with the game.
 Of course for those who enjoy the deck building aspect it would suck, but something like that won't replace other formats (After all, GW wants you to buy all the cards).

I'm happy with 3 ways to play. Relic and open tournaments would be interesting but j dont know how successful they'll be. Depends on local support, so I wouldn't speculate on a format that would exclude the first 16 warbands until they are updated

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I’m pretty happy they are implementing the full faction deck thing. That’s what has stopped me from buying more warbands, since I’d probably be lending them to friends to play, and I don’t want the hassle of building a bunch of decks balanced against each other. Deck building requires a lot of investment into the game, I’d rather use that time to paint or play!

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I think the reason GW didn't let people know from the get-go that old seasons would get cycled out was because they didn't know this at the beginning of the game. Once the game became successful and the development matured GW would have realized that not only was the card pool getting unmanageably large (which would lead to the commercial death of the game) but the earlier cards were riddled with problematic text and over-powered effects and cycling these out would allow the team to create new cards that replace these effects with a more gentle touch. I suppose a case could be made for revealing the news earlier, but in the end I feel that GW have done a good job overall of handling this "rotation", by allowing warbands and faction cards to remain permanently. 

As others have said, your Steelhearts sound like they are still good for competitive play. Check the universal cards they came with and make sure they have the Nightvault symbol. 

You expressed concern for placing lethal hexes as part of the starting procedure in the new season - but you own Nightvault and that box comes with two lethal hexes (if I'm not mistaken) for spells. Also, if you're playing against people who own the latest edition they'll probably have their own objectives and lethal hexes with them. I've found it's not usually a problem to use the opponent's objectives in tournaments.

Anyway, I'm glad you finally found a solution to your Beastgrave woes. The game seems to be getting better and better and the new season is starting things off the right way.

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14 hours ago, spaint2k said:

I think the reason GW didn't let people know from the get-go that old seasons would get cycled out was because they didn't know this at the beginning of the game. Once the game became successful and the development matured GW would have realized that not only was the card pool getting unmanageably large (which would lead to the commercial death of the game) but the earlier cards were riddled with problematic text and over-powered effects and cycling these out would allow the team to create new cards that replace these effects with a more gentle touch. I suppose a case could be made for revealing the news earlier, but in the end I feel that GW have done a good job overall of handling this "rotation", by allowing warbands and faction cards to remain permanently. 

 

Without having insider knowledge, I would say this is the case. The first season was pretty much entirely designed by 1 person, who was given 8 push fit sets of models and asked to build a game around them. It being a good game and the support for organised play really help drive it to where it is today.

 

The design space is maturing and the cards coming out are significantly better in terms of balance. If you look at Nightvault in isolation its far better on the balance curve than Shadespire and I expect Beastgrave to be the next step in that.

 

The game is also an INCREDIBLY attractive business model for GW. Instead of the revenue spikes you get with 40k and AoS releases, Underworlds represents a consistent revenue stream - every 2-3 months during a season they release 2 expansions and every Underworlds player is going to buy them for the Universal cards. While it's not the heights of spend that 40k and AoS release represent, shareholders value predictibility in revenue and earnings.

From a player point of view, you're shelling out £105 per calendar year for core box and 6 expansions that are fully valid for 2 years. A decent 40k army will set you back (ballpark) £400 and will be valid for longer but overall, the spend remains pretty balanced. And while universal cards are rotated out, the Relic format still exists so they are not completely invalidated. Some of those 40k models you buy will end up shelved for an entire edition if their rules update isn't up to scratch (lookin at you wraithknight) so again, evens out. It also means the Underworlds game will remain well supported with development, making the rules, models and organised play scene significantly better.

/fanboy

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On 9/22/2019 at 2:34 AM, Kramer said:

I’m still a bit confused on what you think is unfair.  (Well of course I do a bit) but isn’t it all about perspective? One way to look at it is as you do now. Bought a game that is being phased out. Basically it’s a stand alone board game with expansions.

The other is GW was very clear on underworlds being a competitive game. To keep such a game interesting and as tight as possible updates need to be made.  But with more and more cards, the interactions become uncontrollable and therefore some things will be dropped and/or changed. So phasing out the older cards is the only way GW can maintain its competitive game goals.  

So what is unfair to you? Is it that shadespire is unplayable. No it isn’t, it’s just not tournament prove anymore. Is it that the warbands aren’t usable? As I understand it they are.  

(Just to be clear I’m genuinely interested in what feels unfair to you, this is not me trying to convince you just explaining my vision on the whole thing)

To me it sadly seems you and GW have a different expectation for the game. On a personal note: I’m in the same boat as you. I did not even start on nightvault as the expansion rate is too high for me. As underworlds is a side game to me. 

Lastly I will note that we don’t know how GW will handle the details. Will the recycled cards from season 1 be available separately? Or will they just be a reprint of a selection of season 1 cards. That would mean you don’t need it anyway. So personally I’m trying not to judge until that time. 

Gw should have been more upfront and less coy about what underworlds was an analogue of. Shadespire s gw’s take on a ccg. If you invested into shadespire without any experience of ccgs, you are gonna he burned and they did not make this clear for people not already in the know about systems like magic. Usually the more casual folks. If you want to play underworlds, you have to keep up with a regular card rotation, but a lot of people were not expecting this

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3 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Gw should have been more upfront and less coy about what underworlds was an analogue of. Shadespire s gw’s take on a ccg. If you invested into shadespire without any experience of ccgs, you are gonna he burned and they did not make this clear for people not already in the know about systems like magic. Usually the more casual folks. If you want to play underworlds, you have to keep up with a regular card rotation, but a lot of people were not expecting this

Well, Underworlds is not a CCG, because it doesn't have random booster packs. But that's a bit of semantics on my part :P 

The more casual folks don't care. If you're casual, don't go to big events, and just get it for game night - play Relic. Or Open. Or ignore it. The rotation is for competitive play and tournaments. 

People who play competitively in any sense of the word should have seen this coming. Not only is it common practice with any sort of game of this type (MTG, Netrunner, Pokemon, Hearthstone, etc), but if you had never heard of those things, a large majority of people on podcasts and at events have been discussing it since the end of Shadespire.

And honestly, pretty much every competitive person I've seen discussing it is excited, as no one wanted to see Ready For Action in every deck for the rest of time. The format system lets you use your existing cards in Relic if you want, while keeping the competition fresh.

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I got into this game at the start of season 2. Seeing a large part of my collection become invalid for competitive play hurt. Quite a bit.

But I also thought this was coming. Not right now, and not in this way specifically, but some kind of rotation. It STILL hurt, and there's nothing anyone can say or do that remedies that. It's an emotional, irrational reaction. Not one stemming from reason.

However, the more I think about deck builds and the more games I play, the more the game surprises me. It feels fresh. And that, in the end, is what will keep me and others playing, and what will pull new players in.

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I'll be honest, I didn't know it was coming.  I started with NV and then bought backwards as people got out.  I spent quite a bit of money... but at the same time... the new card rotation is exciting.  I like removing some of the cards that were just silly.  Like a casual look at MTG would reveal why some of the cards shouldn't have been printed.  I do think they should have given SLIGHTLY more notice.  But I'm playing a tourney this weekend (my first) and then another next (my second) and I'm stoked.

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On 10/2/2019 at 8:56 PM, DingK86 said:

However, the more I think about deck builds and the more games I play, the more the game surprises me. It feels fresh. And that, in the end, is what will keep me and others playing, and what will pull new players in.

I am loving the new deck building. Even without the rotation, the curbing of the score immediate meta through deck building rules and the choice of board or objectives after the first roll has legitimately changed the game. it is much harder to snowball now and objective based play can more consistently get 3 objectives to place.

 

On 10/5/2019 at 2:18 AM, IkedaT said:

  But I'm playing a tourney this weekend (my first) and then another next (my second) and I'm stoked.

Awesome!

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