Gotrek rules

[Mcthew]

1 minute ago, Double Misfire said:

 

520 points worth of broken baby. 😘

Yep - I think we'll have a Gotrek embargo here until GW gets its dung together. Very sloppy (the writing that is). 😁

[Overread]

Give the poor dwarf a chance to get released first  

[Mcthew]

6 minutes ago, Overread said:

Give the poor dwarf a chance to get released first  

Hey , I have him on pre-order. He'll just have to wait on the subs bench until someone works out how to make the model less of a joke playing-wise 😂

(Just to add, it ain't just the WLC this ability nerfs but the ratling gun gimbal limiter ability too which make eff all sense as again its about hits - really GW are bewildering sometimes; talk about rushed product...)

Edited September 12, 2019 by Mcthew

[Dead Scribe]

We played with Gotrek last night in a handful of games.  If you don't have a lot of ranged options, he's going to chaffe you pretty hard.  Expect him to always be in the middle of the table gunning for your big dogs.  

I'd say that after a month or so of seeing him that it won't be that big a deal for those of us that play tournament level games.  For casuals, its no different than having to face three keepers or FEC or tournament skaven so I wouldn't call that broken either, at least no more broken than AOS already is.

Most of us aren't playing AOS for a deep balanced game anyway.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Dead Scribe

[Kasper]

1 minute ago, Dead Scribe said:

I'd say that after a month or so of seeing him that it won't be that big a deal for those of us that play tournament level games.  For casuals, its no different than having to face three keepers or FEC or tournament skaven so I wouldn't call that broken either, at least no more broken than AOS already is.

This is true, however it is one single tiny half-naked Dwarf, where as 3 Keepers or Terrorgheists are of significant size that are appropriate to their power. You don't need to be very experienced to realize that 3 huge giants are gonna crush your puny and tiny chaff models.

I personally find it a bit problematic that they release cases like this where a model is extremely broken at lower skill-levels, but easily dealt with at high skill-levels. Maybe you can't get around it, I don't know.

[Double Misfire]

6 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Hey , I have him on pre-order. He'll just have to wait on the subs bench until someone works out how to make the model less of a joke playing-wise 😂

 

Enjoy: https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls//AoS_Fyreslayers_WSCards_Grimwrath_Berzerker_EN.pdf

(I'm still using Gotrek's actual rules though)  

3 minutes ago, Kasper said:

This is true, however it is one single tiny half-naked Dwarf, where as 3 Keepers or Terrorgheists are of significant size that are appropriate to their power. You don't need to be very experienced to realize that 3 huge giants are gonna crush your puny and tiny chaff models.

I'd like to imagine Gotrek had an impressive enough model and was notorious enough for anyone who'd been playing the game longer than a week to recognise him and have an idea what he's capable of. Nobody's going to mistake Abaddon the Despoiler for a slightly larger Chaos Terminator.  

[Kasper]

1 minute ago, Double Misfire said:

I'd like to imagine Gotrek had an impressive enough model and was notorious enough for anyone who'd been playing the game longer than a week to recognise him and have an idea what he's capable of. Nobody's going to mistake Abaddon the Despoiler for a slightly larger Chaos Terminator.  

If you aren't a super big fan of the lore, why would you know who this semi naked Dwarf is? Even worse if your opponent is playing Fyreslayers, then they pretty much all look the same if you aren't super familiar with the faction. I'm just saying that typically the size of a model indicates the power, not at all the case here.

I don't play 40k at all and don't care about the game, so I would have no idea who Abaddon is.

[Overread]

Honestly I think that sometimes people are going to have to be expected to read some of the stats for the models in the game if they don't know them - that's kinda part and parcel of the game itself. Same as how there are some quite small wizard models capable of casting great powerful spells and signature spells. If you know nothing of your opponents army and you ask nothing (or don't glance at the battltome during the game) then if you fail to understand - you do set yourself up to fail in the battle. 

[Dead Scribe]

You get around it by learning to play better.  The tournament players get around it because we play many games a week for months or years.  

Also people love low model count armies, so I'd expect to see more super powered gotrek models in the future that cost a lot of points.  

[Double Misfire]

1 minute ago, Kasper said:

If you aren't a super big fan of the lore, why would you know who this semi naked Dwarf is? Even worse if your opponent is playing Fyreslayers, then they pretty much all look the same if you aren't super familiar with the faction. I'm just saying that typically the size of a model indicates the power, not at all the case here.

I don't play 40k at all and don't care about the game, so I would have no idea who Abaddon is.

The same way you're likely to know who Luke Skywalker is if you play Legion and couldn't care less about Star Wars? 🤷‍♂️

If you're facing Gotrek as part of a Fyreslayer army you've got off lucky, Gotrek is probably at his worst allied with Fyreslayers, Kharadron or Dispossessed as he won't be able to rely on Chonomatic Cogs to reach stuff. Fear the scuba mask wearing Gotrek that fights alongside fish elves! 🐠

[stratigo]

On 9/11/2019 at 8:49 AM, sal4m4nd3r said:

He cant straight up tank and kill three keepers 1v3. He will easily one shot one keeper, attack again and kill the second. Next round killing the third.  But sure.. he isnt that bad. 

 But then the Slaanesh player summons 6 more keepers, so really you’ve done him a favor

 

i haven’t matched it out yet, but I’m fairly sure your big unit of blight Kings can one round him if they get the drop on him

 

 

22 hours ago, Zanzou said:

"Only" 48 wounds 😏

People are forgetting that Gotrek doesn't have to fight alone by any means; he's not Vorgaroth's 1200 points to play, he's 520 points.  You still have about 75% of your points left in a 2000 point game- you can still afford your own chaff and elites.

48 wounds isn’t a big ask in aos. Skeletons, skaven infantry, a bunch of chaos units, gobbos, and more can easily mass 48 wounds

 

gotrek ruins the day of people whose army plan was “I’m going to shove my big gribblies down your throat turn one.” And Gotrek is a good solution to that issue mechanically

 

skaven are barely going to care though, and I’m not sure Slaanesh realistically will either. This is the final nail in gristle gore. I can’t imagine another undead army having much issue with Gotrek though. Or either of the nova top 10 tzeentch lists. I dunno, maybe daughters of khaine will have a problem? But, man, they’ve been top tier for like a year

 

so many armies revolve around dumping their entire army in your face in a couple turns with units that do as much or more damage than Gotrek will and ruining your day, and I think that is particularly unfun interactions for the game, so more reasons to not do that is pretty solid 

[Mcthew]

Ok, so since this discussion on Gotrek's avatar, this is how we see it:

"If the damage inflicted by an attack, spell or ability that targets or affects this model is greater than 1, change it to 1."

So what we're talking here is singular actions that inflict damage of more than 1 MW. However some abilities contain multiple actions such as attacks. In that case we treat that ability not as singular at all; we treat it as number of actions generating a number of attacks.

For example, the ratling gun gimbal limiter. Releasing the gimbal limiter has nothing to do with the unit or units being targeted. Indeed you can split the number of attacks (double 2xd6) across Gotrek and the unit he is next to if you wish and there's nothing Gotrek can do about it. Its the number of attacks generated that takes precedent, and each does 1MW.

Another example is the WLC: its attacks characteristic is classed as "see ability" for a perfectly good reason as you couldn't fit the rules for that attack into such a tiny space. But to summarise you are rolling 6 dice representing 6 attacks. Each successful attack inflicts 1 MW per dice that meets the power generated (or 12 dice if you go for more warp power). 

We're sticking with that rule as it is written, unless anyone can come back saying we're wrong and they work for GW 😁

[sal4m4nd3r]

3 hours ago, stratigo said:

 But then the Slaanesh player summons 6 more keepers, so really you’ve done him a favor

 

i haven’t matched it out yet, but I’m fairly sure your big unit of blight Kings can one round him if they get the drop on him

5 blightkings deal about 1-2 wounds to him, if you roll average amount of 6s and each 6 to hit turns into 3.5 hits. 

15 attacks. 10 hits. I aired on the side of the blightkings here and figured there would be 2 6s. so 8 regular hits + 7 extra attacks. Thats 15 hits. 10 wounds. 5 get through his armor. He maybe fails 2 of those. 

I guess Im being a bit of a whiny little butt muncher. I'm STILL a bit salty blightkings didnt get unmodified 6s and Glott, plaguebearers, and horticulous didn't go down in points. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by sal4m4nd3r

[Laststand]

1 hour ago, Mcthew said:

Ok, so since this discussion on Gotrek's avatar, this is how we see it:

"If the damage inflicted by an attack, spell or ability that targets or affects this model is greater than 1, change it to 1."

So what we're talking here is singular actions that inflict damage of more than 1 MW. However some abilities contain multiple actions such as attacks. In that case we treat that ability not as singular at all; we treat it as number of actions generating a number of attacks.

For example, the ratling gun gimbal limiter. Releasing the gimbal limiter has nothing to do with the unit or units being targeted. Indeed you can split the number of attacks (double 2xd6) across Gotrek and the unit he is next to if you wish and there's nothing Gotrek can do about it. Its the number of attacks generated that takes precedent, and each does 1MW.

Another example is the WLC: its attacks characteristic is classed as "see ability" for a perfectly good reason as you couldn't fit the rules for that attack into such a tiny space. But to summarise you are rolling 6 dice representing 6 attacks. Each successful attack inflicts 1 MW per dice that meets the power generated (or 12 dice if you go for more warp power). 

We're sticking with that rule as it is written, unless anyone can come back saying we're wrong and they work for GW 😁

I agree with the ratling gun because that is a role for number of attacks but not the WLC. Its warscroll specifically says you roll for the power of the attack (singular) and then the 6 dice for mws. Those 6 dice arnt new or seperate attacks and its more like a single attack that does d6 damage. 

I'd say we will need an FAQ from GW to be sure either way though. Why they cant write a rule clearly I dont know.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Laststand
Added a line

[Eldarain]

Warp Lightning Cannon definitely gets reduced as written. Ratling Gun is a good option but will probably suffer the -1 for look out sir.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Eldarain

[Double Misfire]

2 hours ago, Mcthew said:

Ok, so since this discussion on Gotrek's avatar, this is how we see it:

"If the damage inflicted by an attack, spell or ability that targets or affects this model is greater than 1, change it to 1."

So what we're talking here is singular actions that inflict damage of more than 1 MW. However some abilities contain multiple actions such as attacks. In that case we treat that ability not as singular at all; we treat it as number of actions generating a number of attacks.

For example, the ratling gun gimbal limiter. Releasing the gimbal limiter has nothing to do with the unit or units being targeted. Indeed you can split the number of attacks (double 2xd6) across Gotrek and the unit he is next to if you wish and there's nothing Gotrek can do about it. Its the number of attacks generated that takes precedent, and each does 1MW.

Another example is the WLC: its attacks characteristic is classed as "see ability" for a perfectly good reason as you couldn't fit the rules for that attack into such a tiny space. But to summarise you are rolling 6 dice representing 6 attacks. Each successful attack inflicts 1 MW per dice that meets the power generated (or 12 dice if you go for more warp power). 

We're sticking with that rule as it is written, unless anyone can come back saying we're wrong and they work for GW 😁

Attacks don't equal spells or abilities. It doesn't matter what you think it is designed to represent, RAW, the Warp Lightning Cannon's Warp Lightning Blast is  a single ability with a maximum and minimum amount of mortal wounds inflicted by it, and not a series attacks. Avatar of Grimnir states that "If the damage inflicted by an attack' spell or ability that targets or affects [Gotrek] is greater than 1, change it to 1" - Warp Lightning Blast is an ability directly targeting Gotrek, with the potential to inflict more than 1 damage. If it does inflict 2 or more damage on him then the amount dealt is automatically reduced to 1.

The Ratling Gun's More-more Warplead! ability in other example you've given affects the Ratling Gun itself and not Gotrek, doubling the Ratling Gun's random attack characteristic. The ability does not affect Gotrek, and he is only affected by the Ratling Gun's (2D6x2) individual attacks.

[PlasticCraic]

I've written up a Blog post on the Wee Man, check it out:

https://plasticcraic.blog/2019/09/12/gotrek-hot-takes-and-how-to-handle-him/

There's some practical, mechanical advice on dealing with him in there, that could hopefully be of help to people who are struggling,

[Eldarain]

Really enjoyed that write up PlasticCraic. Will be following your blog from now on.

[sal4m4nd3r]

14 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Attacks don't equal spells or abilities. It doesn't matter what you think it is designed to represent, RAW, the Warp Lightning Cannon's Warp Lightning Blast is  a single ability with a maximum and minimum amount of mortal wounds inflicted by it, and not a series attacks. Avatar of Grimnir states that "If the damage inflicted by an attack' spell or ability that targets or affects [Gotrek] is greater than 1, change it to 1" - Warp Lightning Blast is an ability directly targeting Gotrek, with the potential to inflict more than 1 damage. If it does inflict 2 or more damage on him then the amount dealt is automatically reduced to 1.

The Ratling Gun's More-more Warplead! ability in other example you've given affects the Ratling Gun itself and not Gotrek, doubling the Ratling Gun's random attack characteristic. The ability does not affect Gotrek, and he is only affected by the Ratling Gun's (2D6x2) individual attacks.

Gotta disagree with you here. WLC is a missile weapon with each of its attacks doing one MW each.  Just because it has a different firing mechanic, doesnt suddenly make it an "ability". An ability would be like a warscroll item that says "this guy is tough a nails. when he looks at you you get scared. Pick a model and do d3 mortal wounds"  If WLC's attacks did 2 or d3 MW each (lol that would be crazy) then yeah it would get reduced to one each. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by sal4m4nd3r

[Double Misfire]

5 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Gotta disagree with you here. WLC is a missile weapon with each of its attacks doing one MW each.  Just because it has a different firing mechanic, doesnt suddenly make it an "ability". An ability would be like a warscroll item that says "this guy is tough a nails. when he looks at you you get scared. Pick a model and do d3 mortal wounds"  If WLC's attacks did 2 or d3 MW each (lol that would be crazy) then yeah it would get reduced to one each. 

Does it have an attacks characteristic?

Nope, Warp Lightning Blast is an ability (listed as one) that the Warp Lightning Cannon uses in the shooting phase instead of performing a regular attack sequence. The mortal wounds caused by it are not attacks as defined by the core rules.

 

Cry harder Thanquol pls

[sal4m4nd3r]

2 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

Does it have an attacks characteristic?

Nope, Warp Lightning Blast is an ability (listed as one) that the Warp Lightning Cannon uses in the shooting phase instead of performing a regular attack sequence. The mortal wounds caused by it are not attacks as defined by the core rules.

 

Cry harder Thanquol pls

Does it have a damage characteristic.. because that is what is teased down to 1. No need for insults and rudeness. 

[Skreech Verminking]

I disagree and agree with you all.

technically the attack is a ability.

yes Gotrek only minimizes any damage suffered to one, but sadly those 6dice (12) are a part of an attack (1),making gotrak only suffer 1mortal wound in exchange 

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT +++

Think we're going to all have to wait until an FAQ in a couple of weeks (you have all e-mailed AoSFAQ@gwplc.com asking these questions haven't you?) rather than ping-ponging the question here, as we could feasibly debate this until we're old and grey and still not agree!

[Double Misfire]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Does it have a damage characteristic.. because that is what is teased down to 1. No need for insults and rudeness. 

Genuinely sorry! I hadn't intended to offend you at all, and was trying to highlight the funny correlation between people desperate to take Gotrek's new rules down a peg and skaven players.

[Mcthew]

1 hour ago, Double Misfire said:

Genuinely sorry! I hadn't intended to offend you at all, and was trying to highlight the funny correlation between people desperate to take Gotrek's new rules down a peg and skaven players.

That's ok - but I am an Order player. Sure I like to dabble playing skaven cos they're fun. But I've pre-ordered Gotrek for myself and a City of Sigmar army, so no agenda at all except to play a balanced game with friends.

Rather than being hyper competitive about it, I'd rather common sense applies in the gameplay, (even if I do aim to tank everything on the board with him. 😁)

I await the FAQ with interest and hope that common sense applies even to my own unit.