Gotrek rules

[Beliman]

3 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Yes, use Tempest's Eye allegiance from Season of War: Firestorm instead of Kharadron in order to be able to to include a wizard able to summon Chronomantic Cogs as well.

I really like what you are saying. A simple pallissade in front of Gotrek can destroy my plan.
I'm not sure if it's worth and at this moment, I have a lot more doubts than before, but really thanks @stratigo and @Double Misfire for the inputs!!

[sigmar is scottish]

I've never really enjoyed dwarfs in warhammer or any other setting for that matter. Most of the time portrayed as a clumsy stereotype. 

However AoS has changed my mind on this (slightly) 

They have truly fleshed the race out, the various 'types' of dwarf are all really cool and unique. I can see me picking Gotrek up as it's a stunning model with what looks like really fun rules. 

[stratigo]

On 9/21/2019 at 7:35 AM, Beliman said:

I really like what you are saying. A simple pallissade in front of Gotrek can destroy my plan.
I'm not sure if it's worth and at this moment, I have a lot more doubts than before, but really thanks @stratigo and @Double Misfire for the inputs!!

note that a lot of tournies, for whatever reason considering they were hardly overpowered, refuse to allow firestorm cities. 

[Overread]

25 minutes ago, stratigo said:

note that a lot of tournies, for whatever reason considering they were hardly overpowered, refuse to allow firestorm cities. 

That's likely because Firestorm is basically a rules expansion from the core game. It's like Malign Sorcery is an expansion only one that most accept. In general events will choose to accept or deny some expansions based upon the content nature and type. 

[WatcherintheWater]

How are people handling the 2 different size bases? Magnets? 

I was thinking about just using the 40 because it looks cool. I’m guessing most people would be fine with that.

[Eldarain]

I started to magnetize them and then just went with rule of cool. He looks way cooler on the pile of Skaven. 

[WatcherintheWater]

@EldarainThat's what I was thinking too. Sort of wish they just made that big base his official one.

[Forrix]

A guy ran Gotrek in a dispossessed list at a local tourney this weekend. Didn't get to play him but Gotrek made a bit of a splash. As expected super killy but slow as hell meant he basically created a no go zone that varied in effectiveness based on the scenario. He died in two of the games I believe (1 for sure) which actually surprised me.

Interestingly, everyone in my area seems to be putting him on the 32mm base (I almost did the 40mm but it just bugs me when the basing is as tall as the model on it). I really don't see it being an issue even in tournaments as both bases come in the box and if anything I think the 40mm makes him a bit weaker (can get a bit more attacks in from big units).

[Dead Scribe]

You should never put him on the 40mm because it lets more attacks hit him.  

[WatcherintheWater]

@ForrixThanks!

@Dead Scribe Yeah. Agreed that if you are just worried about being as competitive as possible, you should just go with the small base. I like to play somewhat competitively, and sometimes go to tournaments, but I'm not worried about squeezing every last drop out of my list. For me the 40mm base just looks cooler, and I don't think it should make that much difference (especially if you keep him partly wrapped in allied units).

Sounds like no one can really think of reasons an opponent would object to the bigger base.

[Freejack02]

Well the new Orruk Warclans subfaction ability "Strength of Purpose" really takes him for a ride: "Any ability that negates wounds has no effect on wounds inflicted by a Drakkfoot unit". 

Seems like a pretty solid Gotrek and Morathi counter (although that one's a little more muddy).

[stratigo]

2 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

Well the new Orruk Warclans subfaction ability "Strength of Purpose" really takes him for a ride: "Any ability that negates wounds has no effect on wounds inflicted by a Drakkfoot unit". 

Seems like a pretty solid Gotrek and Morathi counter (although that one's a little more muddy).

they will roll him over, yes.

 

I am a bit worried about orruk warclans tossing out such obviously powerful hardcounters to a  bunch of armies. It makes me feel like they're not going to address the issues of multiple rerolling feel no pains that sort of.... allows some of the front runner armies to be far more durable than they really should be (looking at you DoK) because they're just gonna have an army the wrecks that ability. But, like, what if you don't want to play them? I am hoping the GW answer isn't "Well you're just ******"

[Double Misfire]

Re: Drakkfoots:

I'm only reading it as Gotrek losing his "ward save" against them, and not the damage of attacks, abilities and spells being reduced to 1. "On a *+ that wound or mortal wound is negated" is the standard working for special save abilities, and specifically what the Drakfoot Strength of Purpose ability is described as ignoring. Gotrek's Avatar of Grimnir doesn't negate wounds in the described sense, but reduces the damage of characteristic of attacks hitting him (damage later becoming wounds). If you're going to claim that Strength of Purpose ignores Gotrek's damage taken per attack/ability/spell limit, then you're going to have to claim that it bypasses models with negative modifiers to hit them, because they too negate wounds. 🤓

Huge on it's own, but not as severe as anyone makes out!

[Mcthew]

In the absence of an FAQ for our flame-haired demi-God, we ran Gotrek down to the local GW store for a meeting engagement and to put the rules through their paces with someone who is in the know. So the following might help for all those scratching their beards when fielding this guy...

First off, using Chronomatic Cogs makes the guy an 'alpha-plodding nuke', so we all agreed that will probably be nerfed in the FAQ (if it comes out).
Secondly, and just as importantly, Gotrek isnt as invincible as we thought.
Running him against Skaven, he really does incur plenty of damage. 

The steer from GW to their staff is that on the question of Avatar of Grimnir, every roll of a dice is classed as a "trigger" for damage, and is not aggregated. In other words, you roll a dice and the max damage is 1 wound, not 1 wound regardless of how many dice are rolled. That means every spell which rolls dice to inflict a mortal wound (Flock of Doom, Quicksilver Swords etc) causes 1 mortal wound per dice roll, not 1 mortal wound per spell cast. That goes for weapons classed as special ability or beefed up by special abilities.

Imagine then, my Gotrek hurtling (plodding) across the battlefield towards the archwarlock, his warp lightning cannons, stormvermin, and rattling guns thinking 'hey, these rat boys are toast...'
Sure the ratlings caused a couple of wounds, but under the clarification given by GW staff Gotrek was undone by the WLCs on one turn as... Drum roll (dice roll) ... Yes, even WLCs dice rolls are classed as triggers, meaning they do inflict more damage than just 1 wound per blast. And as my poor Gotrek found out to his dismay, 2 WLCs with 'more more warpower' can vapourise him entirely. (10 mortal wounds actually).

So with the rules clarified for, at least us, in store (and unlikely to see an FAQ anytime soon), my conclusions are that I still love the guy. 

He can tank Nagash because that's something we've already tried doing (Nagash couldn't even touch him, although some briarstorm thorns did "cut" Gotrek's thumb causing a wound - lol). He looks great, and although not everyone will agree with the rules (and this post is not to re-start that debate just to say this is how GW staff are playing him), he is fun to play with.

Just don't put him in front of Clan Skrye  is my advice. 😁

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Mcthew
Apparently you can't say ****** in relation to thorns - it's too rude

[Eevika]

14 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Imagine then, my Gotrek hurtling (plodding) across the battlefield towards the archwarlock, his warp lightning cannons, stormvermin, and rattling guns thinking 'hey, these rat boys are toast...'
Sure the ratlings caused a couple of wounds, but under the clarification given by GW staff Gotrek was undone by the WLCs on one turn as... Drum roll (dice roll) ... Yes, even WLCs dice rolls are classed as triggers, meaning they do inflict more damage than just 1 wound per blast. And as my poor Gotrek found out to his dismay, 2 WLCs with 'more more warpower' can vapourise him entirely. (10 mortal wounds actually).

So with the rules clarified for, at least us, in store (and unlikely to see an FAQ anytime soon), my conclusions are that I still love the guy.

 

I dont think thats correct on your part. Gotrek reads "If the damage inflicted by an attack, spell or ability that targets or affects this model is greater than 1, change it to 1" When you roll attacks you can deal 1 damage for every attack becouse the rules of AoS state you actually roll every attack seperately but can roll multiple at the same time to speed it up so the best way to kill Gotrek is multiple attacks. A spell that rolls 13 dice and deals mortals is all rolled at the same time and is a single source to it can only deal 1 damage. Same with the WLC it can only deal 1 damage as its only one attack/ability how ever you take it. 

[Mcthew]

5 minutes ago, Eevika said:

I dont think thats correct on your part. Gotrek reads "If the damage inflicted by an attack, spell or ability that targets or affects this model is greater than 1, change it to 1" When you roll attacks you can deal 1 damage for every attack becouse the rules of AoS state you actually roll every attack seperately but can roll multiple at the same time to speed it up so the best way to kill Gotrek is multiple attacks. A spell that rolls 13 dice and deals mortals is all rolled at the same time and is a single source to it can only deal 1 damage. Same with the WLC it can only deal 1 damage as its only one attack/ability how ever you take it. 

As I said in the post this is not meant to restart this debate (and no doubt the Mods will come in). This is the steer from GW staff regarding 'Avatar', which is the steer we're following.

But please feel free to follow what you or your opponent wants to follow, is my advice.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Mcthew

[Eevika]

1 minute ago, Mcthew said:

As I said in the post this is not meant to restart this debate (and no doubt the Mods will come in). This is the steer from GW staff. Please feel free to follow what you or your opponent wants to follow, is my advice.

Where did GW state this? Is it a random store owner or a rules writer 

[Mcthew]

Games Workshop store owner who has asked them the same question - and this was GW's steer. 

(He mentioned something about the rule aligning with 40k but as I don't play 40k not sure what he was talking about).

In the absence of the writer publically explaining direct to us players, this is direction we're taking.

And more than happy to do so. Just means playing Gotrek more creatively.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Mcthew
(Just an idea - but you could speak to the GW staff yourself for clarification? Ours are pretty good at clearing rules up).

[Eevika]

10 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Games Workshop store owner who has asked them the same question - and this was GW's steer. 

(He mentioned something about the rule aligning with 40k but as I don't play 40k not sure what he was talking about).

In the absence of the writer publically explaining direct to us players, this is direction we're taking.

And more than happy to do so. Just means playing Gotrek more creatively.

In my experience store owners know almost nothing about the rules and AoS rules dont follow the same logic as 40k. I think the dude you talked to was wrong. 

[zilberfrid]

31 minutes ago, Eevika said:

In my experience store owners know almost nothing about the rules and AoS rules dont follow the same logic as 40k. I think the dude you talked to was wrong. 

Well, he could just have asked GW how it was interpreted, and received this answer.We'll see in the FAQ what happens.

[Panzer]

Unfortunately GW staff has been about as often wrong and right as other people in the community. So while it's nice that you guys have some clarification in your store it's not really something any of us can or should count on. 

[stratigo]

Also this issue is pretty much "And let us make skaven kill gotrek even easier". This is a problem because skaven are just a gross army that can counter gotrek several easy ways already, they don't need that counter to include the same non interactive nonsense they use to murder every other character in the game. WLCs already skip past almost all the tools people use to protect characters.

[Mcthew]

48 minutes ago, stratigo said:

Also this issue is pretty much "And let us make skaven kill gotrek even easier". This is a problem because skaven are just a gross army that can counter gotrek several easy ways already, they don't need that counter to include the same non interactive nonsense they use to murder every other character in the game. WLCs already skip past almost all the tools people use to protect characters.

Agreed - WLCs in my mind should be more points. And that's coming from someone who also plays Skaven on occasion.

Or, the more-more warp power should be removed as an ability.

Or better still, any roll of 1 inflicts a mortal wound on the WLC regardless of using the special ability (thematically this is a skaven botched-warmachine).

With the rules as they stand, there's still a good chance the WLC will survive being supercharged before it kills off a 520pt character. Not bad for something that costs 180pts.

[Aezeal]

On 9/11/2019 at 7:31 PM, azmodan said:

What if you run him in a shooty army and force opponent to come to You. Then hes 4" inch move is not so bad.

Also feeding him chaff is not so Easy in this scenerii.

People always imagine he is running towards You. This will not always be the case

I'd play the objectives and win

[Overread]

I've never really seen dwarves as clumsy in fantasy as a generic trait. Strong, squat miners. Often set in their ways, often shunning the surface world (though also in need to trade with it). Many settings also copycat Tolkien and have them as one of the "older" races which means they advanced into higher levels of science and civilisation before humanity. Engineers is also a common trait, though even if they don't have superior technology they are typically pretty good at building structures and working stone. 

Even in Diskworld they hold a pretty strong history with the only clumsy one being a rather overlarge adopted "Dwarf" who is mostly only clumsy due to being a bit big for the mineshafts and the like.