Gotrek rules

[AthlorianStoners]

I think of it in a tiered format, so something along the lines of: 

1. Cosmic Deity, abstract powerful beings who are for all intents and purposes unkillable: Chaos Gods, Dracothian(?) 
2. Gods, extremely powerful beings who are attuned to a realms magic. Extremely difficult to beat if you aren’t one of them: Sigmar, Nagash, Alarielle, Gorkamorka, Archaon, Grungni, Grimnir, Tyrion, Teclis, Malerion
3. Lesser Gods, vestiges or hidden remnants of past religions or faith. Powerful, but do not have the ability to directly overpower the true gods: Khaine, Kurnoth, Mathlann, Hashut, Morghur etc
4. Avatars, embodiments or representatives of the the higher powers, who channel their energy and are more powerful than normally possible: Morathi, Gordrakk, Gotrek, Celestant Prime, Arkhan, Neferata, Mannfred, Lady Olynder, Top Greater Daemons, Eidolon
5. Godbeasts, self explanatory here, great beasts who channel immense power. Some could be on the true Gods level, but on average fall to those above. 

[Overread]

Godbeasts vary a lot in strength, lets not forget Grimnir was killed in a battle with a Godbeast. I would wager the Godbeasts are right up there with the Gods if not one or two being above the gods in power.

The Slaan are also worth a mention since they appear to be very powerful mages within the setting. My lore on them is hazy but I'd wager some of the oldest might well be right up there with the Gods in the level of power they can call on. 

 

Also my comment on "a click of the fingers" was somewhat hyperbolic (and assumed most would catch on). The gods have limits, but they are certainly far more powerful than regular armies. Heck I just got through Giantkiller and Teclis and the pair of dark mages in that story end with a battle where they throw "Enough magic to blast apart a mountain" and that is in the Old World. Now whilst the Elf might have been overcompensating his prowess there's every chance that if regular mages can aspire to that level of power in a "less powerful" world then in the AoS setting the God of Death would still have enough power to destroy very large forces alone. 

Of course they prefer to use agents likely because its part of an escalation of warfare and the Gods themselves don't want to fight each other directly; so they use agents of their peoples. Plus there's the aspect that they cannot be all places at once and thus their people allow them to rule far greater lands

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway all this talk of gods and mages and elves is likely driving any Gotrek out there utterly insane! !;)

[El Syf]

2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I think it's important to remember that the model we place on the tabletop isn't necessarily going to live up to the legend that they've got in stories and the background.  In all honesty a book that was written based on what happens during a game wouldn't actually be very interesting!

or

Because of this some characters are able to perform actions that could never be represented on the tabletop - Nagash killing Tamra's clan in Undying King for example is a good example of this.  Equally his ability to release his essence from his physical form, trundle off somewhere else and then rebuild a body from skeletons and bones nearby isn't something that we're going to be able to do in a game.  Nothing stopping you coming up with some appropriate rules with some friends though!

This is exactly why there has never and will never be rules and a model for Abhorash: he's just too good  

[Whitefang]

5 hours ago, cadmachine said:

I have and in neither book does Nagash use innate ability to click his fingers and instantly kill an entire army.

His powers are bolstered immensely by the black pyramid and even so he was unable to defeat the Stormcast and their allies defensing Glymmsforge, for instance.

 

Really? Don’t you remember in the undying king the seriously-wounded Nagash manifest as a corpse giant and destroyed the nurgle army? Later he also killed all the clan survivors and turned them into skeletons with a thought.

In black pyramid when he appeared he killed the Chaos lord as easy as killing a bug and all sce facing him felt there was no possibility to win.

The only reason Glymmsforge being not conquered is because Nagash didn’t bother going there himself. Just see what happened to Lethis where even CP helps to defend. 

[Panzer]

Being able to overpower others because he's a literal god is compeltely different from *snaps fingers* "Poof, you are dead!" though. He has power over the dead. Not the power to kill the living at will.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, AthlorianStoners said:

Cosmic Deity, abstract powerful beings who are for all intents and purposes unkillable: Chaos Gods, Dracothian(?) 

Well In the skaven battletome, there have been mentions of a weapon that could kill any god, thus for the council of 13 were punished by their god an a few decades later We were born Yes-yes

[cadmachine]

39 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well In the skaven battletome, there have been mentions of a weapon that could kill any god, thus for the council of 13 were punished by their god an a few decades later We were born Yes-yes

One of my absolute favourite pieces of AOS fluff. 

 

[RuneBrush]

50 minutes ago, Panzer said:

Being able to overpower others because he's a literal god is compeltely different from *snaps fingers* "Poof, you are dead!" though. He has power over the dead. Not the power to kill the living at will.

Sorry to disagree on this - but he did do this at the end of Undying King with Tamra's clan.  Now we could explain it away as it was just a few mortals, he was in Shyish, they were worshippers of Nagash etc, however it is canon that he can (and has) snap his fingers and kill (or more accurately turn living into undead).

[Panzer]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

Sorry to disagree on this - but he did do this at the end of Undying King with Tamra's clan.  Now we could explain it away as it was just a few mortals, he was in Shyish, they were worshippers of Nagash etc, however it is canon that he can (and has) snap his fingers and kill (or more accurately turn living into undead).

I'd say it was powerful magic cast by him supported by being in the actual realm of death. Spells to turn living into undead existed before. However we have yet to see anything indicating that he could just go wherever and kill whole cities or armies at will by some godly above-magic powers. Otherwise it'd beg the question why he doesn't just send out his shards to do just that with whatever opposes him.

[Whitefang]

9 minutes ago, Panzer said:

I'd say it was powerful magic cast by him supported by being in the actual realm of death. Spells to turn living into undead existed before. However we have yet to see anything indicating that he could just go wherever and kill whole cities or armies at will by some godly above-magic powers. Otherwise it'd beg the question why he doesn't just send out his shards to do just that with whatever opposes him.

This has been explained in several novels.

By Hamilcar and Grungni it’s “if Sigmar fight with us today, then tomorrow we will see Khorne on the battlefield, later we may even have Nagash appeared. No one wants to see this happen so gods send their mortal agents to wage wars in subtler way”

And powerful magic is just one of typical abilities of Nagash, the great necromancer, who use to be the most powerful mortal mage in the worlds. 

[Laststand]

Either way, god or super powerful necomancer, Gotrek is going to be ready for a chat when he gets his Axe back.

[Eevika]

So my friends I have put together the ultimate Gotrek package for your games. You want ofc Gotrek then a friend a simple Jade Battlemage to heal and give him another 6 fnp. Then the Archmages spell gives you another 6 fnp to all your guys with in 18" Then a cool ride for these guys a Luminarch of Hysh giving another 6 fnp aura to people around him. At this point your Gotrek has a 4+ save a 3+ fnp a 6+ fnp a 6+ fnp and a 6+ fnp. Add a good ammount i recommend 60 Crossbow men and shoot the walls infront of him and kill everything. 

[RuneBrush]

20 hours ago, Panzer said:

I'd say it was powerful magic cast by him supported by being in the actual realm of death. Spells to turn living into undead existed before. However we have yet to see anything indicating that he could just go wherever and kill whole cities or armies at will by some godly above-magic powers. Otherwise it'd beg the question why he doesn't just send out his shards to do just that with whatever opposes him.

I think it's open to interpretation - there are a dozen different ways Nagash could have done it and I'm sure some of those could have limitations.  It does beg the question (which as @Whitefang says has been sort of identified) - but it's equally plausible something has happened between then and now - the events in Undying King occurred during the Age of Chaos and we've had many years pass since then.  I think it's been kept deliberately vague - it certainly gives us some great conversations!

[Zanzou]

8 hours ago, Eevika said:

So my friends I have put together the ultimate Gotrek package for your games. You want ofc Gotrek then a friend a simple Jade Battlemage to heal and give him another 6 fnp. Then the Archmages spell gives you another 6 fnp to all your guys with in 18" Then a cool ride for these guys a Luminarch of Hysh giving another 6 fnp aura to people around him. At this point your Gotrek has a 4+ save a 3+ fnp a 6+ fnp a 6+ fnp and a 6+ fnp. Add a good ammount i recommend 60 Crossbow men and shoot the walls infront of him and kill everything. 

Sadly GW purged two of the units you just listed from their stores (among countless others this year)

Edited September 17, 2019 by Zanzou

[stratigo]

On 9/16/2019 at 10:06 AM, Whitefang said:

This has been explained in several novels.

By Hamilcar and Grungni it’s “if Sigmar fight with us today, then tomorrow we will see Khorne on the battlefield, later we may even have Nagash appeared. No one wants to see this happen so gods send their mortal agents to wage wars in subtler way”

And powerful magic is just one of typical abilities of Nagash, the great necromancer, who use to be the most powerful mortal mage in the worlds. 

The idea that the likes of khorne or goramorka, or even the ever petulant and entitled Nagash, could actually have the self control to restrain themselves from fighting for any reason is a bit silly. Khorne isn’t gonna sit on his throne going “I better not take my big ass axe and hit dudes with it cause I don’t want to throw down with Sigmar” on the contrary, if he could, he’d probly bust his way into azyr and throw down right then and there 

Edited September 17, 2019 by stratigo

[Mutton]

I played Gotrek at the last AoS night and he performed exactly how I expected. Took him two battle rounds to get into combat (with a lucky 9-inch charge, in a scenario where our forces started very close to one another). Once in combat he handily wiped out about 30 or so Stormvermin, taking only a couple wounds from their attacks. The rest of the game he was too slow to do anything but flounder around the one objective he'd charged onto.

He's a fun, scary little bazooka to play with, but if you're gunning to win a game, you probably don't take him. I can see him easily taking three full battle rounds to get into a fight. Fortunately, I don't care much for winning.

Edited September 20, 2019 by Mutton

[Zanzou]

8 minutes ago, Mutton said:

 if you're gunning to win a game, you probably don't take him.

Or use him correctly..!

[Chumphammer]

31 minutes ago, Zanzou said:

Or use him correctly..!

Totally lol

My first game with him he got into combat turn 2, and killed 880pts of stuff in 3 turns. It was total commitment and i just sent him by himself after an objective. He died but did alot. Probably woulda done more but as it was vs legion of grief the immunity to rend slowed him slightly

[Mutton]

42 minutes ago, Zanzou said:

Or use him correctly..!

He's a one note unit. I'm not sure what 5th dimensional chess plays you're hoping to accomplish with him, but the only strategy for Gotrek is making sure he gets to where he needs to be to make up his cost. Any experienced player is going to do their best to waste his time or avoid him entirely. Now if you're playing something like Knife to the Heart or Total Commitment, that's where he shines, since his main weakness is being made up for in the scenario.

I didn't say he couldn't win games, I said he's not the most competitive choice. I don't think that can be argued when we still live in a world where model count captures objectives in most scenarios.

[Zanzou]

23 minutes ago, Mutton said:

I didn't say he couldn't win games, I said he's not the most competitive choice. I don't think that can be argued when we still live in a world where model count captures objectives in most scenarios.

First is that we also live in a world where your remaining 1500 points can make vastly different team compositions to complement him among the very different factions, and the remaining 1500 points should still be enough to make higher body counts in the right composition. 

Second is that movement buffs paired with running is nothing to scoff at when he is set up near where he should actually be.

Third would be ofc as you know to specifically use him where he shines defensively, defending critical points single-handedly where you can rush your 1500 points elsewhere as needed (built specifically to fulfill the needed ranged attacks or mobility)

[Kurrilino]

2 hours ago, Zanzou said:

First is that we also live in a world where your remaining 1500 points can make vastly different team compositions to complement him among the very different factions, and the remaining 1500 points should still be enough to make higher body counts in the right composition. 

Second is that movement buffs paired with running is nothing to scoff at when he is set up near where he should actually be.

Third would be ofc as you know to specifically use him where he shines defensively, defending critical points single-handedly where you can rush your 1500 points elsewhere as needed (built specifically to fulfill the needed ranged attacks or mobility)

I can tell you right now that they are armies, that need a complete clown general to lose against Gotrek.

Tzeench as example will magic hit/spawn garbage around Gotrek to make him move 3" per whole game.

In general all of the death armies generals will point at you and laugh if fielding Gotrek

[Beliman]

11 hours ago, Zanzou said:

Or use him correctly..!

I have a Tournament next week and I want to use Gotrek with my KO army. Any tips or strategies to follow? 
Battleplans are Take and Hold (ulgu) and Chained Colossus (Shyish).

[stratigo]

33 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I have a Tournament next week and I want to use Gotrek with my KO army. Any tips or strategies to follow? 
Battleplans are Take and Hold (ulgu) and Chained Colossus (Shyish).

Gotrek look like, in a KO army, best utilized as a way to scare the enemy from approaching your companies. With him as a sort of countering force, you may need less screening.

Sadly he really eats into what you can budget for mobility, so your army is gonna have trouble getting from point A to point B

[Double Misfire]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

I have a Tournament next week and I want to use Gotrek with my KO army. Any tips or strategies to follow? 
Battleplans are Take and Hold (ulgu) and Chained Colossus (Shyish).

Yes, use Tempest's Eye allegiance from Season of War: Firestorm instead of Kharadron in order to be able to to include a wizard able to summon Chronomantic Cogs as well.  

[Double Misfire]

Reviews of The Neverspike and Ghoulslayer now up for anyone interested in the literary output spinning off from Gotrek's warscroll:

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2019/09/review-neverspike-short.html

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2019/09/review-ghoulslayer-part-1-spoiler-free.html

https://doublemisfire.blogspot.com/2019/09/review-ghoulslayer-part-2-spoiler.html