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Still-young

AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

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Now I'm feeling much less bad about wanting to bring two Harvesters in my 2k list. :P 

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Overall the FAQ and Errata are good. They've answered pretty much all the questions and sorted out a few errors (Vokmortian can take spells and the main leaders health breakdown is fixed). The double up abilities and such abuse is now curtailed (which we all pretty much knew was going to happen). The FAQ on the Nexus is a "bit" of a letdown in that GW basically says "Ask the TO" rather than giving a formal answer; but I suspect that might be because they don't really know what's fair so want to leave that one in the wild for a while and see how people react. 

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4 hours ago, Sception said:

FAQ may change things, but as written my understanding is that, yes, he interrupts after each model within 3" is slain. This is because, while it is convention to roll dice and remove models in batches where the order doesn't matter in order to save time, in actuality the rules have each individual wound allocated and fully resolved one at a time.

So if Skarbrand attacks the unit and does 24 mortal wounds, each wound is resolved one at a time - allocating a wound to a model, rolling any mortal negation abilities one at a time, applying the wound if negation fails, and removing a model if you reach their wounds characteristic, at which point bone harvest triggers and potentially returns a model before moving on to allocating the next wound.

It's important to note that the area within which bone harvest functions is only 3".  If you're suffering such a massive allocation of wounds at one time, it's entirely possible that you will run out of models within 3" of the harvester before you run out of wounds to allocate, and if that happens you will be unable to use bone harvest on any of the remaining wounds, as the models slain by those wounds won't be within range of the ability.

This seems correct given the Designer's Commentary regarding the SCE rule Cycle of the Storm, in that the wounds are allocated one at a time, and a model is considered "slain" while other wounds have yet to be allocated.

I kind of wish it weren't this way, because in practice it functions like an additional 4+++ in most cases, since you can just keep returning the slain model right back to where it was, then "slay" it again with the next wound allocated, etc et

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I hoped they would specify when exactly you can use Unstoppable Advance and Bludgeon. Can I roll for a run and then based on that add +3" move? Can I roll all my hits and wounds and based on that decide on increasing the rend?

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What are people thinking of for the unit size for Mortek Guard? I’m planning to run a magic list with Arkhan but not sure gore to support him.

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Just now, Marthen said:

What are people thinking of for the unit size for Mortek Guard? I’m planning to run a magic list with Arkhan but not sure gore to support him.

It really depends on the rest of the army and what your approach is. With support (eg harvester) even a unit of 10 can hold the line and do some damage. Meanwhile a unit of 40 is a very expensive investment in a single unit and only counts as one battleline unit

If you're not taking deathriders then put down 3 units of 10 and see how the points start to add up, with a view to adding some to at least one or two of those units. 

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i was thinking of buying the 2 box sets  the Kavalos Lance box set and the Mortek Shield Corps box set and a Mortek crawler to round out 2000pt so my army would look something like this and is it viable. i don't own the battle tome yet so i didn't pick anyone of the HQ to be my general or spells or artefacts   

HQ

bone reaper

soulmason

soulreaper

arch-kavalos zandtos

battle line

10 kavalos deathriders

20 mortek guard

20 mortek guard

20 mortek guard

artillery

mortek crawler

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22 minutes ago, vikelf83 said:

i was thinking of buying the 2 box sets  the Kavalos Lance box set and the Mortek Shield Corps box set and a Mortek crawler to round out 2000pt so my army would look something like this and is it viable. i don't own the battle tome yet so i didn't pick anyone of the HQ to be my general or spells or artefacts   

HQ

bone reaper

soulmason

soulreaper

arch-kavalos zandtos

battle line

10 kavalos deathriders

20 mortek guard

20 mortek guard

20 mortek guard

artillery

mortek crawler

Zandtos is only very situationally better then a generic liege kavalos.  He is only better if you have someone else to take artifacts and if you don't overly care about the legion traits (crematorians).  Otherwise you should always take a generic liege kavalos.  

Also, I'd probably drop the bonereaper for the shield corps battalion to reduce your drops.  The shaper and Mason are enough magical support.

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How does this 2k list sound?

Petrifex Elite

HQ

Arkahn

Liege Kavalos

Soulmason

Battleline

20 mortek guard

20 Mortek Guard

5  Kavalos Deathriders

Behemoths

Harvester

Harvester

Mortek Crawler

I also like the idea of swapping out the crawler for a unit of immortis guard

Edited by Arcian
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8 hours ago, Pejzub said:

I hoped they would specify when exactly you can use Unstoppable Advance and Bludgeon. Can I roll for a run and then based on that add +3" move? Can I roll all my hits and wounds and based on that decide on increasing the rend?

I imagine you can, it just says in your movement phase, as long as your in it, you can

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9 hours ago, Marthen said:

What are people thinking of for the unit size for Mortek Guard? I’m planning to run a magic list with Arkhan but not sure gore to support him.

I like 20s.  Beefy enough to make relatively efficient use of buffs while being cheap enough to have a few units to work with.

Massive blocks of 40 really are tempting, though, as getting a big horde discount on what is already our most offensively and defensively points efficient unit is really something worth considering, and properly supported (couple boneshapers, shrieker, harvester, maybe a liege) a massive wall of 2x40 morteks can steam roll entire enemy armies.

On the other end of the spectrum, 10 morteks for 130 points is our cheapest battle line and is still a functional little unit, much hittier and tougher to budge then its small size would suggest.  Especially in (sigh) petrifex.  If our non-battleline units were more points efficient then taking minimal mortek battleline would probably be the way to go, but since they are in many ways our best and strongest unit, you might as well beef them up a bit, imo.

 

Honestly, they're a great unit at any size.  I'm not sure there's a bad way to run them.

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5 hours ago, Emissary said:

Zandtos is only very situationally better then a generic liege kavalos.  He is only better if you have someone else to take artifacts and if you don't overly care about the legion traits (crematorians).  Otherwise you should always take a generic liege kavalos.  

He's also better in a praetorian army, where you can use his wound reroll ca on other units, not just himself.  Not super relevant right now when petrifex is best by a country mile, but if petrifex gets the nerf bat in the future, then praetorians may get more popular.

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3 hours ago, Sception said:

He's also better in a praetorian army, where you can use his wound reroll ca on other units, not just himself.  Not super relevant right now when petrifex is best by a country mile, but if petrifex gets the nerf bat in the future, then praetorians may get more popular.

I enjoy petrifex elite very much ruleswise. Good saves and potentially high rend are the things i like the most in AoS so i am pretty happy they put both into one legion. Made the choice easy. 

For everyone being concerned about their new army „getting a bad reputation“ - chill. 

I just recently played against a „tripple bloodthirster all fight first list“ and if it wasnt for petrifexes‘ rerollable +1 save i would have lost for sure because they just would have murdered my 30 Mortek Guards easily. 

There will always be competitive (always good) and situational choices in sub-factions. Take Fyreslayers for example. I have never seen a different lodge than Vostarg or Hermdar on the table. 

For OBR it will be praetorians (Katakros/Zandtos) or petrifex. If you want to be special play a different legion or create your own but if you want to bring the strongest possible list decide between those two and have fun. 

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I think your selling crematorian and null myriad short. With a harvester build crem is amazing, and if you are doing a team tournament (4 plus teammates, captains pick matchups) null myriad are an amazing counter pick for magic reliant armies

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With every passing day it becomes more and more clear that Petrifex is best by so much that it breaks the whole faction.

Simply put, petrifex versions of units are so much better than the other legion or non legion versions of those same units that they cannot justifiably be played at the same points cost.  For each and every unit, either the petrifex version is underpriced by 20 points or more, or else the non petrifex version is overpriced by the same amount.

They need a nerf.  Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't see one in the first faq.  Then again, I'm surprised they made it through testing as is to begin with.

Edited by Sception
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1 hour ago, Sception said:

With every passing day it becomes more and more clear that Petrifex is best by so much that it breaks the whole faction.

Simply put, petrifex versions of units are so much better than the other legion or non legion versions of those same units that they cannot justifiably be played at the same points cost.  For each and every unit, either the petrifex version is underpriced by 20 points or more, or else the non petrifex version is overpriced by the same amount.

They need a nerf.  Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't see one in the first faq.  Then again, I'm surprised they made it through testing as is to begin with.

TBH it feels like if they had to nerf petrifix they will have to do pretty hectic point drops on various units. (some need it already out of the box)

Yes Petrafix is mostly better than all the other factions, but without it I dont see OBR competing.

I dont think OBR are broken or OP because of the +1 save. I feel they need it to be able to compete on the higher tiers, without it they will probably not feature on top tables.

Thus a buff to other sub factions are needed, instead of the heavy handed nerf hammer to the one subfaction that's actually worth anything.

Overall internal balance of the book does feel out of whack sadly.

Edited by Dracan
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14 minutes ago, Dracan said:

but without it I dont see OBR competing.

This. I'm not sure I understand (other than it being the new thing so people feel the need to rag on it) the talk of how "broken and OP" they are. Many armies have 1-2 setups that are miles ahead of other choices in the same army in terms of tournament play; should all of those stick around while OBR gets nerfed? If you do that then you're widening that power gap across all armies. I think there are far worse armies that 'feel bad' to play against than OBR if I'm honest. Outrageous summoning or AFF + You fight last + Double activation\Out of phase activation feels far worse and there are multiple things that can do that.

I would agree, internal balance is whacky, but I would rather see other things get better than one of\the only viable competitive build get nerfed and the army starts to vanish from play. It's already been discussed plenty that if you want to play more casually, pick another Legion. Inherently the units are still strong, but I mean... that's kind of the point of OBR compared to all the other Death factions.

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1 hour ago, Sception said:

With every passing day it becomes more and more clear that Petrifex is best by so much that it breaks the whole faction.

Simply put, petrifex versions of units are so much better than the other legion or non legion versions of those same units that they cannot justifiably be played at the same points cost.  For each and every unit, either the petrifex version is underpriced by 20 points or more, or else the non petrifex version is overpriced by the same amount.

They need a nerf.  Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't see one in the first faq.  Then again, I'm surprised they made it through testing as is to begin with.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but who are you to judge whats undercosted or needs a nerf? Some random guy on the internet thinking he knows more about the game than anyone else. 

This is coming from some other random guy on the internet so take it with a grain of salt. 

I think OBR, even played as petrifex elite is a perfectly balanced army. I had 2 relatively easy games against a competitive army and 2 absolutely close games against a less competitive list, playing the same petrifex list against both. 

It‘s just a very tanky legion that plays the objective game pretty safe. Nothing wrong with it when you are still outnumbered most of the time. 

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1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

This. I'm not sure I understand (other than it being the new thing so people feel the need to rag on it) the talk of how "broken and OP" they are. Many armies have 1-2 setups that are miles ahead of other choices in the same army in terms of tournament play; should all of those stick around while OBR gets nerfed? If you do that then you're widening that power gap across all armies. I think there are far worse armies that 'feel bad' to play against than OBR if I'm honest. Outrageous summoning or AFF + You fight last + Double activation\Out of phase activation feels far worse and there are multiple things that can do that.

I would agree, internal balance is whacky, but I would rather see other things get better than one of\the only viable competitive build get nerfed and the army starts to vanish from play. It's already been discussed plenty that if you want to play more casually, pick another Legion. Inherently the units are still strong, but I mean... that's kind of the point of OBR compared to all the other Death factions.

This happens with every new release and the first month of it. People find a good list and immediately whine that other lists aren’t “competitive” and call for a nerf to the good list so their dumb one can be “competitive.” Nearly all the other factions in both Sigmar and 40k have one cookie cutter skeleton of a list with a few random stuff thrown in (for the most part), so why are we any different?  I think the book is fine and maybe needs some love for the other factions but it’s clearly the norm at this point to design a few “fun” sub factions and one or two actually competitive ones per book.

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2 hours ago, Sception said:

With every passing day it becomes more and more clear that Petrifex is best by so much that it breaks the whole faction.

Simply put, petrifex versions of units are so much better than the other legion or non legion versions of those same units that they cannot justifiably be played at the same points cost.  For each and every unit, either the petrifex version is underpriced by 20 points or more, or else the non petrifex version is overpriced by the same amount.

They need a nerf.  Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't see one in the first faq.  Then again, I'm surprised they made it through testing as is to begin with.

People need to stop freaking out about the army Until they play it. I’ve gotten a few games with it and a few against and it’s 50 50 win rate. Will it be a nightmare for some armies? Yes. Will others just wreck it. Yes. Petrifex is also in my opinion not the best legion

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I agree the internal balance is not very good. Petrifex makes the army strong, while I think most other legions are too weak.

I feel Praetorians with Katakros in, will probably be the more balanced setup, but petrifex just steps on that by also having the superior forced artifacts and especially command ability. If you already get +1 hit from katakros, rerolling hits vs chargers i far worse than getting +1 rend, that CP is so universally good.

Switch the command abilities of Mortis Praetorians and Petrifex and the balance gap would have been far closer, and at least we would probably see Katakros in his own legion on the table. 

The army is relatively squishy as a whole without +1 save, every wound is super expensive and removing a 200 point harvester with 10 wounds and 4+ save is not harder than a unit of 5 liberators, which is why that save makes a huge difference.

This by itself hurts the other legions badly, but there could have easily been far more balance.

Ivory host should have been +1 to wound instead of hit, there are so many other +1 hit sources already and they should make Morghasts, stalkers and immortis battleline, just for laughs and kicks.

Stalliarch lords are decent, but has no reason to have so poor artifacts and traits, improve that and it would be ok, although not meta probably.

Nulls are decent, they are niche but that is ok.

Crematorium are cool as well, but the command ability should have been something more interesting.

Petrifex would probably be more balanced if they had rules like reduce rend by 1 instead of +1 save, which often adds up to the same but does not shaft low or non rend armies against them. CP should as mentioned be swapped with Praetorians to hit home the defensive nature perhaps.

All this and give morghasts another wound and +1 attack for polearm and +2 for swords and I think the book would be much better internally balanced from these few things alone.

Edited by Scurvydog

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2 hours ago, Dracan said:

TBH it feels like if they had to nerf petrifix they will have to do pretty hectic point drops on various units. (some need it already out of the box)

Yes Petrafix is mostly better than all the other factions, but without it I dont see OBR competing.

That's exactly the problem, and exactly why petrifex needs a nerf.  If obr units are overpriced for every legion except petrifex, but can't get a points decrease because it would make the unit too strong in petrifex, then the petrifex rules as written are a barrier standing in the way of the faction as a whole being fun and balanced.

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5 minutes ago, Sception said:

That's exactly the problem, and exactly why petrifex needs a nerf.  If obr units are overpriced for every legion except petrifex, but can't get a points decrease because it would make the unit too strong in petrifex, then the petrifex rules as written are a barrier standing in the way of the faction as a whole being fun and balanced.

I generally prefer when systems raise up the weaker options instead of dropping down the "one good" choice. Know what I mean? Could end up with a situation where petrifex is nerfed, but nothing else changed and that'd be pretty unfortunate.

Edited by Arcian
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The problem that most people have, from what I saw online, against Petrifex is the +1 save trait on battleline Mortek Guards. The command ability and item are just icing on the cake.

To me a gentle but impactful nerf ( meaning without making the trait useless) would be to limit the +1 save to models with more that 3/4 wounds (should Kavalos have it or not ?) and remain  true to the lore of this legion which focus on big monster...

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As so often it's probably a mix of both. Petrifex seems too strong so should definitely receive a nerf, however others (especially Ivory Host) require a buff too.

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