AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[GeneralZero]

A funny list super cheap to get (if you have some death) and probably fun to play:

nagash

arkhan

3*10 guards

3 Immortalis stalgers (as body guards to big guys)

=1830.

Complete with a 3rd hero for discipline maybe (or 10 more guards in a unit). I have yet to see the destruction potential of N+A to see if this army has enough power to grab objectives after anihilate his oponent...

[Scurvydog]

So I have been reading the rules for the Crawler again and again for the Cauldron of torment and this is how I understand it:

For example you shoot at a unit of 20 stabbas. These guys have bravery 4. 

You roll a dice for each model in the unit, so 20 dice. you add the modifier, which is 0 at full bracket. If the roll is equal or greater than the UNMODIFIED bravery characteristic of the unit, 1 model is slain. 

So in this example you roll 20 dice, and they are bravery 4 unmodified, meaning out of 20 dice, each 4+ is a dead stabba. Is that correct?

Also meaning bravery 7+ units are completely immune, as it is only based on the unmodified bravery, so you can not debuff them for greater effect.

 

At first I thought it was the total roll of all dice killing 1 model, but that did not really make sense...

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Sällsam said:

Jesus Christ, what an actual nightmare to carry around at tournaments. 

I like it

[KK9T]

3 hours ago, tea_wild_owl said:

the nexus is huge 😮. fortunately,  it is placed before any other terrain, even the normal one. anywhere on the battlefield, 3" from objectives and 6" from battlefield edge

You place this piece before all other terrain? Does anyone have the rules for placing this piece?

[Overread]

So sorting out a bit of a shopping list for this weekend and the big drop of pre-orders. Right now I'm thinking something along the lines of:

1 Arch-Kavalos Zandtos
2 Kavalos Deathriders
1 Mortek Crawler
1 Gothizzar Harvester 
1 Mortisan Boneshaper
1 Mortisan Soulreaper

Possibly also adding the Tithe Nexus to the order. 

This is on top of:

6 morghasts (I've still not decided on weapons)
10 Mortek Guard
3 Stalkers
Vokmortian

Sadly its looking increasingly like I won't find a trading partner to swap my ogors for reapers and the trading price for ogors is somewhat less than for the reapers so I can't basically double my mortek and stalkers (which is most of what I'd hoped for - the added morghasts would have been a boon). Still that would give me a decent working core plus a nice chunk of variety. 
Plus with Mortek Guard at 20 for £35 they will feel EVER so cheap compared to Daughters of Khaine witches. 

[TheKingInYellow]

Am I reading it wrong or is Immortal Contract one of the best spells in the game?  It's not going to do much against hordes but Heroes can be crippled by it.  It lasts all game, can't be dispelled, works in every single phase.  

[Inquisitorsz]

1 hour ago, TheKingInYellow said:

Am I reading it wrong or is Immortal Contract one of the best spells in the game?  It's not going to do much against hordes but Heroes can be crippled by it.  It lasts all game, can't be dispelled, works in every single phase.  

Yeah seems good. Especially if you can boost the range and hit something early. 
Arkhan and Nagash should have no issues casting it. 

Extra annoying for units that do damage in multiple phases like fighter/wizards, or heroes with shooting and melee attack (like most big monster heroes). 
Something like Drycha just cries..... wizard with a good ranged and melee attack. 

[Grdaat]

7 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

So I have been reading the rules for the Crawler again and again for the Cauldron of torment and this is how I understand it:

For example you shoot at a unit of 20 stabbas. These guys have bravery 4. 

You roll a dice for each model in the unit, so 20 dice. you add the modifier, which is 0 at full bracket. If the roll is equal or greater than the UNMODIFIED bravery characteristic of the unit, 1 model is slain. 

So in this example you roll 20 dice, and they are bravery 4 unmodified, meaning out of 20 dice, each 4+ is a dead stabba. Is that correct?

Also meaning bravery 7+ units are completely immune, as it is only based on the unmodified bravery, so you can not debuff them for greater effect.

 

At first I thought it was the total roll of all dice killing 1 model, but that did not really make sense...

I'm certain what you describe here is how it's supposed to work, but thanks to how the rules are written, it makes it seem like you add the results together and if it's higher than the Bravery, you kill 1 model.

[Grdaat]

So something I didn't know about and I doubt other people do either at the moment is the Vokmortian's Retinue battalion. It's 120 points, comes in the Feast of Bones box, requires the units that come in Feast of Bones, and it has a special effect: at the start of your hero phase, select a unit within 8" of Vokmortian, return a slain model to that unit.

That seems kind of huge, in only one phase you can almost make back the cost of the battalion by bringing a Morghast back,  and at the moment it's the only reliable way to resurrect them, as well as Stalkers.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Grdaat

[angrycontra]

5 hours ago, KK9T said:

You place this piece before all other terrain? Does anyone have the rules for placing this piece?

I don't have the exact rules at my hand now (and I may have misread something) but from what I gather it works like this: Before battle begins and before sides are picked, during the terrain setup phase ossiarch player can put this terrain INSTEAD of normal terrain piece (I believe it had to be 3" from other terrain and 6" from objectives or vice versa). Now as you may remember, officially in the rules, gw assumes that players each take turns to place terrain on board which is randomly rolled with a dice. The idea is that instead of rolling (or choosing traditional terrain) you can put the ossiarch terrain on table.

And this creates real problem if it's not faqed (unless I've misinterpreted the rule): I have never played a single game, where players use this gw terrain placement phase rule. All the tournaments I've been to have pre-built tables. According the current ruling, you CAN'T place ossiarch terrain, unless both players agree on it or you play using official terrain rules (and rule that requires random person you've never met agree on something like this never end up well)

[Major]

42 minutes ago, angrycontra said:

I don't have the exact rules at my hand now (and I may have misread something) but from what I gather it works like this: Before battle begins and before sides are picked, during the terrain setup phase ossiarch player can put this terrain INSTEAD of normal terrain piece (I believe it had to be 3" from other terrain and 6" from objectives or vice versa). Now as you may remember, officially in the rules, gw assumes that players each take turns to place terrain on board which is randomly rolled with a dice. The idea is that instead of rolling (or choosing traditional terrain) you can put the ossiarch terrain on table.

And this creates real problem if it's not faqed (unless I've misinterpreted the rule): I have never played a single game, where players use this gw terrain placement phase rule. All the tournaments I've been to have pre-built tables. According the current ruling, you CAN'T place ossiarch terrain, unless both players agree on it or you play using official terrain rules (and rule that requires random person you've never met agree on something like this never end up well)

I really hope this isnt the case. I was sure it had to be in your deployment zone which would mean youve already decided on sides etc? Which means you can use this terrain piece just like other armies use theirs?

[tea_wild_owl]

1 hour ago, angrycontra said:

I don't have the exact rules at my hand now (and I may have misread something) but from what I gather it works like this: Before battle begins and before sides are picked, during the terrain setup phase ossiarch player can put this terrain INSTEAD of normal terrain piece (I believe it had to be 3" from other terrain and 6" from objectives or vice versa). Now as you may remember, officially in the rules, gw assumes that players each take turns to place terrain on board which is randomly rolled with a dice. The idea is that instead of rolling (or choosing traditional terrain) you can put the ossiarch terrain on table.

And this creates real problem if it's not faqed (unless I've misinterpreted the rule): I have never played a single game, where players use this gw terrain placement phase rule. All the tournaments I've been to have pre-built tables. According the current ruling, you CAN'T place ossiarch terrain, unless both players agree on it or you play using official terrain rules (and rule that requires random person you've never met agree on something like this never end up well)

no, as I said (I have the rulebook here), it is "when terrain ist set up, the nexus must be set up before any other terrain, 3" from objectives and 6" from battlefield edge". then you do the normal terrain set up (big and small per player). so you can always place it anywhere on the field, preferably somewhere in the centre because it is before choosing sides.

[IronfrontAlex]

13 hours ago, choocheelo said:

hmm.. miss that, thx.

 

Where would that be found though? I looked though the tome this weekend and under the section for the legions they don't say anything about you having to use the chosen legion relic first 

[XReN]

1 minute ago, IronfrontAlex said:

Where would that be found though? I looked though the tome this weekend and under the section for the legions they don't say anything about you having to use the chosen legion relic first 

It is written on Legion's rules pages before describing effects of traits and artefacts. You must use Legion ones

[IronfrontAlex]

Whoops just found it. Thanks

[Sällsam]

11 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I like it

Oh, don't get me wrong. It's a stunning piece of terrain! Im thinking out of a pratical sense, it's huuuge to carry around (Nagash I can put into my bag sideways, this wont fit at all, unless the bottom part is easy to magnetize). Also, I've attended tournaments where the terrain is pre-arranged on the tables, and I wonder how the rules will interact with this piece.  

[XReN]

3 minutes ago, Sällsam said:

Also, I've attended tournaments where the terrain is pre-arranged on the tables, and I wonder how the rules will interact with this piece.  

Simply swaping out one terrain piece with Nexus would be an easy solution, but I would expect TO's to re-arrange terrain according to how OBR player wishes to place Nexus

[Nasnad]

That is some crazy deployment rules for the nexus, makes it way better. thought it had to be in your territory.

But this makes the short range judgements much better, and the 'can't run and only charge 1d6" way more potent.

It is still wholly within, so the opponent can play around it, but can still really mess with objective grapping units

[Obeisance]

I seriously doubt I'd ever play Null Myriad, Ivory Host or Mortis Praetorians.  I doublt I'll play Stalliarch Lords, but I like the idea of running awesome cavalry.

Comes down to Crematorians for attrition out of turn or Petrifex because clearly good. I think I'm just gonna end up playing Petrifex. 

Man, tough choice!

 

[Nasnad]

57 minutes ago, Obeisance said:

I seriously doubt I'd ever play Null Myriad, Ivory Host or Mortis Praetorians.  I doublt I'll play Stalliarch Lords, but I like the idea of running awesome cavalry.

I could see myself run null myraids, if my local meta starts to bring a bunch of spells(cities of sigmar or stormcasts) as the command ability to ignore spells on a 2+ can really mess with them.

If i am running a cavalry list, i might even use Petrifex  for them, and try to fit in the battalion instead, as the extra save and rend are really good for the cavalry

Edited October 30, 2019 by Nasnad

[angrycontra]

3 hours ago, tea_wild_owl said:

no, as I said (I have the rulebook here), it is "when terrain ist set up, the nexus must be set up before any other terrain, 3" from objectives and 6" from battlefield edge". then you do the normal terrain set up (big and small per player). so you can always place it anywhere on the field, preferably somewhere in the centre because it is before choosing sides.

This still doesn't clarify what happens in the case where terrain has already been setup (such as tournaments or cool special tables in stores etc.). Now don't get me wrong, I would totally allow the other player place his nexus after terrain setup, but we've all seen these RAW people. Some people will have a field day over arguing this terrain and it's placement.

I don't know how uk/us/whatever tournaments work but every tournament I've been to, tables and terrain have been setup before any matches have been arranged. Following RAW ruling, this terrain cannot be placed if the there are any terrain on the table (discounting other army terrain).

[Scurvydog]

31 minutes ago, angrycontra said:

This still doesn't clarify what happens in the case where terrain has already been setup (such as tournaments or cool special tables in stores etc.). Now don't get me wrong, I would totally allow the other player place his nexus after terrain setup, but we've all seen these RAW people. Some people will have a field day over arguing this terrain and it's placement.

I don't know how uk/us/whatever tournaments work but every tournament I've been to, tables and terrain have been setup before any matches have been arranged. Following RAW ruling, this terrain cannot be placed if the there are any terrain on the table (discounting other army terrain).

Well then you could counter following RAW they should not be setting up the other terrain in the first place. Completely ignoring 1 rule (however silly it might be) and then go all in RAW on another is complete nonsense. 

Tournament organizers will have to take this into account. RAW is that players not alternate between setting up terrain pieces. I personally dislike this rule, but it is what it is, and now it is also beginning to be integrated directly into battletomes, making it harder to ignore. Both Orruks having a clan based on 1 terrain piece, and now Bonereapers working different than others, this is something TO's need to consider.

Once you divert from the core rules, such as house ruling terrain is predefined on tables, then they need to make a sweeping house rule for faction terrain, or have a judge/3rd party to the game make sure this is set up in a fair manner. This is complicated though, and not made easier by every battletome basically having unique rule for their terrain setup, even the 2 new tomes of bonereapers and ogors their terrain setup is vastly different, both in relation to when they are set up but also the limitations to where it can be placed.

[tea_wild_owl]

1 hour ago, angrycontra said:

This still doesn't clarify what happens in the case where terrain has already been setup (such as tournaments or cool special tables in stores etc.). Now don't get me wrong, I would totally allow the other player place his nexus after terrain setup, but we've all seen these RAW people. Some people will have a field day over arguing this terrain and it's placement.

I don't know how uk/us/whatever tournaments work but every tournament I've been to, tables and terrain have been setup before any matches have been arranged. Following RAW ruling, this terrain cannot be placed if the there are any terrain on the table (discounting other army terrain).

 

the order for preparing for battle as for all latest rules:

1) place objectives
2) place ossiarch terrain (new sequence here)
3) place normal terrain (see core rules, each players positions a number of big and small terrain pieces)
4) place faction terrain that is set after setting up terrain, but before choosing sides (nurgle trees)
5) roll of and choose sides
6) place faction terrain that is set after Rollins for sides, in your territory (e.g. moonshrine, wyldwoods)

proof for 2)
the set up rules states: "when terrain is set up for battle, before any other terrain is set (so step 3) the nexus must be placed". furthermore  it then states: "set up the rest of the terrain features as described in the core rules". the last sentence "if both players can place terrain before any other terrain feature, roll off" is just for OBR mirror matches, since there is no other terrain yet.

positioning the normal terrain was introduced with latest core rules. unfortunately, it is normally not used (especially on tournaments where this would take more time) due to time limits or having preset terrain. However, it it a crucial strategic part (as you could place realm gates for tzeentch or sigmarite mausoleum for LoN) or at least offer some zone of protection (selecting more line of sight blocker or less line of sight blocker).

note that the normal terrain set up is before choosing sides, so you either have to gamble for your terrain or even it out on the field.

additionally, the new normal terrain rules do not allow placement on objectives (if they are already on the field), which is good because the objective will be in the open field and not bunkered in a terrain feature offering cover saves

so for the new ossiarch terrain, if the normal terrain is preset on the table, the OBR player should be allowed to place it anywhere and shift the already placed normal terrain. but in the end it's up to the TO

NOTE: since the tome is not officially out yet, and this wasn't mentioned in reviews yet (I suppose it was just skipped due to people thinking it is similar to other faction terrain) there are no official TO statements yet, so it will take some time to be noticed and addressed by official rules, you can always play it. any preset terrain tables are basically house rules (skipping the terrain placement phase), so it would need am additional house rule for OBR terrain (like replacing/moving replaced terrain)

Edited October 30, 2019 by tea_wild_owl

[Sception]

If I were running a tournament the way I'd handle it is to let the OBR player swap out one piece of similarly sized terrain on the board for their nexus, with their opponent allowed one veto of terrain piece chosen.

But we'll just have to wait and see how it's handled.  The faction isn't super dependant on the nexus, I could see it just being banned, which would be kind of sad.

[Pejzub]

23 minutes ago, tea_wild_owl said:

 

the order for preparing for battle as for all latest rules:

1) place objectives
2) place ossiarch terrain (new sequence here)
3) place normal terrain (see core rules, each players positions a number of big and small terrain pieces)
4) place faction terrain that is set after setting up terrain, but before choosing sides (nurgle trees)
5) roll of and choose sides
6) place faction terrain that is set after Rollins for sides, in your territory (e.g. moonshrine, wyldwoods)

 

Thats cool and all, but what we are talking about here is how is it for tournaments and especially this point bellow, that is if the terrain is already set up before by tournament organizer - which is legal.