AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[Nullius]

2 hours ago, umpac said:

Shield wall doesn't have a range requirement. You keep them within 6" early to enable Advance and CS, then break up "formation" if you get a good charge to get proper frontage.

Oh wow idk how I never noticed that. Yeah I use tightly packed tesselating 5 man movement trays that I 3-d printed. They usually end up charging or piling in off of them by turn 2 or 3 but help with movement in 1 and 2. It lets you move 5 at once and keep your lines orderly till the battle starts in earnest. I do the same for sixty man zombie units. 

   

[Benji]

5 hours ago, umpac said:

Shield wall doesn't have a range requirement. You keep them within 6" early to enable Advance and CS, then break up "formation" if you get a good charge to get proper frontage.

You need it for the Deathless save, plus you want to have the ability to counter strike if another squad comes into the combat. 

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

On 12/3/2020 at 1:13 PM, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

--On the topic of the Aegis Immortal, was there ever any consensus on how that ability interacts with the most recent restriction on negating wounds in Matched Play? I did some searching, but I don't think I saw anything conclusive.

Does anyone have a clear idea (ideally with sources) of the flow of events for this one? I have not found any clear indicators of what the sequence is for this one way or another.

[jhamslam]

33 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Does anyone have a clear idea (ideally with sources) of the flow of events for this one? I have not found any clear indicators of what the sequence is for this one way or another.

Yeah its simple, bodyguards are not wound negation.

So , your hero takes a wound. This activates the 6+ deathless save. You roll for it. You fail it. Before you allocate the wound , the bodyguard takes it on a 2+. This is a separate roll since its a separate wound on a separate unit. So you roll the Deathless save for the bodyguard model. Its ignored on a 6+.

With Aegis Immortal, if the bodyguard 2+ roll was a 5+ it is ignored entirely. It happens after you fail the first deathless save, since that is what triggers the bodyguard rule in the first place.

Edited December 25, 2020 by jhamslam

[umpac]

7 hours ago, Benji said:

You need it for the Deathless save, plus you want to have the ability to counter strike if another squad comes into the combat. 

Deathless is very minor unless you face a lot of mortals, and even then I rather have good frontage. CS will be up since you are only breaking the 6" bubble if you charge and then CS won't work anyway.

I've seen a lot of people share your sentiment that 40s of Mortek is too unwieldy, but my experience from both tournaments and casual games is that its the best way to play them (at least for me). I've seen people place top 3 in big tournaments with both 20s and 40s so obviously both work.

[El Antiguo Guardián]

I don´t like units of 30 morteks. Well, I say, you´re paying 130 for each 10 wounds and the last 10 wounds are just at 50 points... and I love discounts.

In my opinion all the competitive list from ossiarch bonereapers needs a unit of 40 morteks or 15 kavalos. They´re big, yes, but both of them are hard as a rock in order for follow your battleplan (flank-break = kavalos; point-farming or center-break = mortek). Units of 30 morteks or 10 kavalos are just meh because the next add have discount, and units of 10 morteks can be good screens but I prefer to avoid them because we are not the army for start playing "tiki-taka", so I prefer units of 5 kavalos for that because they´re great dealing with other small units; and units of 20 morteks for being played alone in order to take objetives (they´re slow but they can hold battle-lines alone).

Greetings.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

I somehow missed that both units had horde discounts, so thank you for pointing that out! As I eventually iterate on my army once it's on the table, that will be a useful thing to factor in.

[Evil Bob]

On 12/25/2020 at 12:20 AM, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Does anyone have a clear idea (ideally with sources) of the flow of events for this one? I have not found any clear indicators of what the sequence is for this one way or another.

Basically it requires a lot of page flipping.

 

1: Determine Attacker Results: (AoS 2.0 Rulebook page 232)

    -  Hit Roll -> Wound Roll -> Save Roll -> Determine Damage (no negation yet)

Normally at this point Wound Allocation BUT...

2: Bodyguard Roll: (OBR page 105, 95)

    -  Soulbound Protector happens before Wound Allocation and Deathless Warrior.  Roll a die for each wound or mortal wound.

   On a 1: Wound passes to original target

   On a 2 through 4: Wound passes to the Soulbound unit

   On a 5 or 6: Wound is negated and never allocated at all.  Which is really weird with current AoS game mechanics

3: Shrug Save: (OBR page 73, 95, 107)

   -  Deathless Warrior 6+ or Morghast Ebon-wrought Armor 5+ as applicable happens here since the wound(s) is(/are) finally allocated.

 

Historical Notes:

After the chaos AoS 1.5 hit Death with (reinforcement points now came from army total) and the bandaid that was Legions of Nagash the bodyguard mechanic was kind thrown out there.  It was enough that LoN FAQs were amended to stop “excessive” defensive dice rolling.  It was then retroactively allowed to happen again with Skaven Verminlord Warpseer which was a large monster hero with the right relic got TWO 4+ Saves on each hit and TWO 5+ Shrugs against each wound (my answer to that was send in 20x Chainwrasps and let both units sit the rest of the battle there while saving 100 points in comparative investment).

Between that and other death instances of getting TWO 6+ Shrugs on all wounds we have The General’s Handbook 2020 shutting all of that down.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

3 hours ago, Evil Bob said:

Basically it requires a lot of page flipping.

 

1: Determine Attacker Results: (AoS 2.0 Rulebook page 232)

    -  Hit Roll -> Wound Roll -> Save Roll -> Determine Damage (no negation yet)

Normally at this point Wound Allocation BUT...

2: Bodyguard Roll: (OBR page 105, 95)

    -  Soulbound Protector happens before Wound Allocation and Deathless Warrior.  Roll a die for each wound or mortal wound.

   On a 1: Wound passes to original target

   On a 2 through 4: Wound passes to the Soulbound unit

   On a 5 or 6: Wound is negated and never allocated at all.  Which is really weird with current AoS game mechanics

3: Shrug Save: (OBR page 73, 95, 107)

   -  Deathless Warrior 6+ or Morghast Ebon-wrought Armor 5+ as applicable happens here since the wound(s) is(/are) finally allocated.

 

Historical Notes:

After the chaos AoS 1.5 hit Death with (reinforcement points now came from army total) and the bandaid that was Legions of Nagash the bodyguard mechanic was kind thrown out there.  It was enough that LoN FAQs were amended to stop “excessive” defensive dice rolling.  It was then retroactively allowed to happen again with Skaven Verminlord Warpseer which was a large monster hero with the right relic got TWO 4+ Saves on each hit and TWO 5+ Shrugs against each wound (my answer to that was send in 20x Chainwrasps and let both units sit the rest of the battle there while saving 100 points in comparative investment).

Between that and other death instances of getting TWO 6+ Shrugs on all wounds we have The General’s Handbook 2020 shutting all of that down.

Great breakdown, thank you!

[CorvoMaltes]

Hi, any tips fighting beastclaw riders? I was thinking on this:

2000 points - Mortis praetorian:

Katakros, mortisan soulmason.

20 mortek guard, 20 mortek guard (to hold the line), 5 kavalos deathriders ( to steal objectives).

Mortek crawler.

6 Necropolis stalkers for heavy rend and damage.

Spells: Bonetithe shrieker, Nightime predator, Soulstealer carrion.

 

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

1 hour ago, CorvoMaltes said:

Hi, any tips fighting beastclaw riders? I was thinking on this:

2000 points - Mortis praetorian:

Katakros, mortisan soulmason.

20 mortek guard, 20 mortek guard (to hold the line), 5 kavalos deathriders ( to steal objectives).

Mortek crawler.

6 Necropolis stalkers for heavy rend and damage.

Spells: Bonetithe shrieker, Nightime predator, Soulstealer carrion.

 

Three endless spells with one caster seems extremely excessive, especially with the way the soul-bound spells work.

[Sception]

Shrieker doesn't stack to well with katakros, & I'm not sure carrion is doing much for you either.  Matbe just keep the predator, and hope the unused points get you a triumph.

[CorvoMaltes]

17 hours ago, Sception said:

Shrieker doesn't stack to well with katakros, & I'm not sure carrion is doing much for you either.  Matbe just keep the predator, and hope the unused points get you a triumph.

Finally I only used the carrion spell ( hitting on 2+ and rerolling 1s was pretty good) I also changed the Crawler for a Ghortizzar (for the 40 mortek). 

Changed for 40 mortek and 10 . The necropolis stalkers are the best DPS unit, 6 of them usually get like 15/20 wounds on hard to hit units (magmadroths, big Ogor monster, etc) I don´t get why people say that they aren´t good,  they´re one of the best units of Bonereapers. 

I won pretty easy on turn 3, he didn´t have anything on the table.

 

[Sception]

Nice, congrats!

The complaints with stalkers are that they're actually somewhat fragile for their points, and the thing they do - infantry unit that hits hard - is something that the basically compulsory morteks already do.  On top of that, the Petrifex nerf hit them pretty hard.  Then again, petrifex nerf means fewer people are playing petrifex, and if you're not playing petrifex than the anti-armor abilities of morteks are limited by missing out on bludgeon, so a can opener unit like stalkers arguably becomes comparatively more valuable.  They're also reasonably quick for an obr unit, and the pseudo flight from their CA on the charge is filling in something that the army kind of lacks outside of morghasts, which are significantly worse.

In my lass ranking - admittedly based more on secondhand accounts than personal experience as covid has all but entirely shut down my gaming opportunities - I put them in 'borderline' tier - ie not a must have, and not something to casually throw into any obr army against any potential opponent, but you're not necessarily shooting yourself in the foot by taking them.  Against the right enemy or with the right support they can still get good work done.

Personally, I'd like to see their points come down a bit more from where they currently are, but I don't think they're unplayable or actively bad.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Sception

[jhamslam]

On 12/30/2020 at 12:03 PM, Sception said:

Nice, congrats!

The complaints with stalkers are that they're actually somewhat fragile for their points, and the thing they do - infantry unit that hits hard - is something that the basically compulsory morteks already do.  On top of that, the Petrifex nerf hit them pretty hard.  Then again, petrifex nerf means fewer people are playing petrifex, and if you're not playing petrifex than the anti-armor abilities of morteks are limited by missing out on bludgeon, so a can opener unit like stalkers arguably becomes comparatively more valuable.  They're also reasonably quick for an obr unit, and the pseudo flight from their CA on the charge is filling in something that the army kind of lacks outside of morghasts, which are significantly worse.

In my lass ranking - admittedly based more on secondhand accounts than personal experience as covid has all but entirely shut down my gaming opportunities - I put them in 'borderline' tier - ie not a must have, and not something to casually throw into any obr army against any potential opponent, but you're not necessarily shooting yourself in the foot by taking them.  Against the right enemy or with the right support they can still get good work done.

Personally, I'd like to see their points come down a bit more from where they currently are, but I don't think they're unplayable or actively bad.

Ive found them VERY effective with the cheap battalions we have, namely Katakrosian Deathglaive. 80 pts to include 3 blenders with an artifact is VERY good.

Use Stalliarch lords with em. So 6 inch pre game move, then spend a dp to get a 9 inch move, then a d6 run (lets say 3 on average). Gives them an 18 inch move and a 2d6 charge. 3d6 on the Harbingers. Imo its the best way to use em right now.

But yeah they (Stalkers, Immortis and Harbingers) could come down 10 pts and be ok

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Personally, if the Stalkers get any change, I would rather see their Aspects become an actual decision point in game. Right now the -1 Rend and +1 Damage on the same Aspect is too good to choose anything except maaaaaybe Blade-Parry in edge cases. If they reigned that in to be one of those bonuses instead of both, I'd like that, although they'd definitely need a points reduction at that point!

[Heijoshin]

13 hours ago, jhamslam said:

Ive found them VERY effective with the cheap battalions we have, namely Katakrosian Deathglaive. 80 pts to include 3 blenders with an artifact is VERY good.

Use Stalliarch lords with em. So 6 inch pre game move, then spend a dp to get a 9 inch move, then a d6 run (lets say 3 on average). Gives them an 18 inch move and a 2d6 charge. 3d6 on the Harbingers. Imo its the best way to use em right now.

But yeah they (Stalkers, Immortis and Harbingers) could come down 10 pts and be ok

How are you using the Deathglaive btw? Are you usually alpha striking with 1 / 2 or all the units in the battallion? If so are you hitting one flank or just spreading out to lock your opponent in for as long as possible whilst your battleline hold the objectives. How are you dealing with shooting or heavy magic? 

Do you have an example list by any chance? 

[jhamslam]

4 hours ago, Heijoshin said:

How are you using the Deathglaive btw? Are you usually alpha striking with 1 / 2 or all the units in the battallion? If so are you hitting one flank or just spreading out to lock your opponent in for as long as possible whilst your battleline hold the objectives. How are you dealing with shooting or heavy magic? 

Do you have an example list by any chance? 

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers
- Legion: Stalliarch Lords
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Liege-Kavalos (200)
- General
- Command Trait: Twisted Challenge
- Artefact: Nadir-bound Mount
Mortisan Soulmason (140)
- Artefact: Soul Reservoir
- Lore of Mortisans: Arcane Command

Battleline
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 2x Soulcleaver Greatblades
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 2x Soulcleaver Greatblades
10 x Mortek Guard (130)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
- 1x Soulcleaver Greatblades

Units
6 x Necropolis Stalkers (360)
- 2x Dread Falchions
4 x Morghast Harbingers (380)
- Spirit Halberds
3 x Necropolis Stalkers (180)
- 1x Dread Falchions

Battalions
Katakrosian Deathglaive (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123


I hope to go first against shooting or move things in cover/ out of sight if i dont get first turn. If i do, the idea is to rush the harbingers towards their main shooters and tie em down with the fly and 3d6 charge. As for magic heavy, not much you can do but try and alpha strike their magic pieces and/or objective takers. Soul Reservoir helps get soul guide off against those armies. 

If they have screens, harbingers usually jump over em and cheap stalkers engage in front. If i know i can survive a hit back, then all 3 units go alpha strike, while mortek guard run onto objectives with the 10 man unit for a backfield objective.

Honestly if the harbingers and stalkers went down 10 points, alongwith the kavalos deathriders by atleast 10 - 20 pts this list would be great

[dikakos]

Hello i would like to ask an opinion on this list:

Legion: Mortis Praetorians,

Mortal Realm: Chamon

LEADERS

Katakros, Mortarch of the Necropolis General

Arkhan the Black

UNITS

20 x Mortek Guards

5 x Kavalos Deathriders

40 x Mortek Guard

Mortek Crawler

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN/ BATTALIONS

Geminids of Uhl-Gysh

TOTAL: 2000/2000
 

 

[Btimmy]

On 1/8/2021 at 6:24 PM, dikakos said:

Hello i would like to ask an opinion on this list:

Legion: Mortis Praetorians,

Mortal Realm: Chamon

LEADERS

Katakros, Mortarch of the Necropolis General

Arkhan the Black

UNITS

20 x Mortek Guards

5 x Kavalos Deathriders

40 x Mortek Guard

Mortek Crawler

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN/ BATTALIONS

Geminids of Uhl-Gysh

TOTAL: 2000/2000
 

 

Pretty standard list that is going to struggle on multiple objective maps. Plenty of grind but not a lot of big firepower. Death riders are going to be able to nab points but not hold them. 40 man mortek unit seems like overkill given the amount of healing you have, probably better to just run more units of less. This will force your opponent to waste attacks wiping an entire unit, or be worried that 6 guard will be coming back if even a single guard remains. 

[dikakos]

5 hours ago, Btimmy said:

Pretty standard list that is going to struggle on multiple objective maps. Plenty of grind but not a lot of big firepower. Death riders are going to be able to nab points but not hold them. 40 man mortek unit seems like overkill given the amount of healing you have, probably better to just run more units of less. This will force your opponent to waste attacks wiping an entire unit, or be worried that 6 guard will be coming back if even a single guard remains. 

what do you suggest as a mortis pretorians list to try? 

[Kalonos]

What are the top tier lists of this army at this moment? Katakros arkan pretorians list posted here seem really competitive.

[Sception]

I'm skeptical of Katakros/Arkhan lists.  That is a ton of points sunk into characters, doesn't leave a lot for army & catapults, and Arkhan in particular is super vulnerable, especially to shooting.  On the other hand, it's not like I have any meaningful experience in the last year to back up that feeling, and if you drop arkhan you won't have much ability to block enemy casting. so iunno.

[LordQuadly]

Hey guys! When lockdown ends and I can play again, I'm gonna be playing a Meeting Engagement as part of a tournament me and a group of friends have started. My next match is against Deepkin and, having lost all of mine, I have 150 extra points to play with. Tried to put something together I thought might be fun to run and wanted to run it by you guys. I'm admittedly terrible at list building so any tips would be appreciated:

Legion: Stalliarch Lords

Spearhead:
-Liege-Kavalos - 200pts
 -General
 -Nadir-bound Mount
 -Twisted Challenge
-Kavalos Deathriders x5 - 180pts
 -Blades and Shields

Main Body:
-Mortisan Soulmason - 140pts
 -Empower Nadrite Weapons
-Mortek Guard x20 - 260pts
 -Blades and Shields
-Mortek Guard x10 - 130pts
 -Blades and Shields

Rearguard:
-Mortek Crawler - 200pts

Endless Spells:
-Bone-tithe Shrieker - 30pts

Total: 1,140/1,150
RDP p/t: 3

The idea is that the Liege and Deathriders can use their mobility to get around or hold units somewhere while the guard make their way up to sit on an objective. If there's multiple objectives, then the smaller blob can sit on the less threatened one. The Crawler can be a threat to squishies, regardless of the tide effects and figured it'd be a good shout to have but it's easily tradeable for some Stalkers or Morghast. Lemme know  what y'all think!

[Sooper88]

On 1/10/2021 at 2:56 PM, Kalonos said:

What are the top tier lists of this army at this moment? Katakros arkan pretorians list posted here seem really competitive.

Pretty much the only viable lists in a competitive scene for this army at this point is a core consisting of: 

 

Katakros

40+ Mortek

2 Crawlers.

Katakros's buffs add too much value to the army to not take. He buffs up everything in the army, has valuable debuffs for your opponents, can heal up to 9 total wounds to allies a turn, Generates a lot of RDP, and is decent in combat to boot.

 

Mortek are a necessity in such a low model count army. You need these boys to hold objectives and become quite point efficient with Katakros buffs.

Crawlers are the only real reach the army has, and is the only reason why they literally don't auto lose against the top dog armies (Seraphon, KO, Tzeentch, IDK) that are all wayyy more mobile and can just basically run circles around our army all game. These back a punch, although can be pretty lackluster against higher armor save armies sometimes. The alternate shots are usually just gimmicks that aren't worth using but can come up from time to time.

 

The usual options to round out the list: a Liege or Zandtos, perhaps a Soulmason and/or Boneshaper, some more Mortek and/or a unit of Deathriders. Maybe Arkhan. Everythin else in the army ranges from okay to bad.

You pretty much have to play the army turtle mode and hope your catapults blow out key targets and then let the Mortek try and outlast stuff.  Not a super fun strategy IMO and I hope the errata and/or next book opens up some new builds and/or let's their range/magic/mobility not all be pretty bad.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Sooper88