AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[Heijoshin]

10 hours ago, Undeadly said:

Honestly,.I think it's weird that you all think Katakros' title of "Undefeated" is literal. He lost to a Ghorghon as a mortal, he lost to Nagash as a spirit, and then lost against Sigmar in.his current state. He's never been undefeated in battle, and it's more of a metaphor; he's "Undefeated" because he never sees it that way.

Whilst I think I prefer the "lost the battle, won the war" interpretation of the whole "undefeated" thing, the lore itself portrays Katakros as prideful, arrogant but fully aware that he has been defeated multiple times. 

Check this out: https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Orpheon_Katakros#fn_1b (yes, it's a wiki page, but it's at least citing pages in the battletome)

Here are some tidbits (emphasis my own): 

Quote

Katakros’ howling spirit raged across Shyish, traveling back to Nagashizzar in a blistering force of anger and injured pride so strong it left the devastation of a raging cyclone in its wake.

Quote

Katakros was welcomed by his old title ‘the Undefeated’ by the Mortisan order and being in his current incarnation which had been spared the ignominy of defeat, Katakros did not correct them

He knows he's been defeated and it shames and enrages him beyond measure. That's his whole deal. He hates Sigmar for getting his head smashed in, but with this new body, NOW he has reached his prime and now that he has essentially been "reborn", he can claim his title of being undefeated once again.....

....Until Wrath of the Everchosen. 

Nowhere does it state that he actually doesn't believe he was ever defeated. He tells people that he has never been defeated because, let's be honest, he's a complete autocratic moron that doesn't want to look weak to people that are afraid to him. That's why he does not correct them when they give him his old title back. He's prideful and arrogant, not delusional. If he never thought he was defeated, he wouldn't be so damn angry. Nagash literally uses the shame and anger of his defeat to Sigmar to shape Katakros into who he is now:
 

Quote

Nagash took the essence of Katakros and remade it while making sure that his hatred for Sigmar remained unaffected.

That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't believe they ever lost. 

So when people, like myself, are confused and a bit disappointed that "the undefeated" is defeated pretty much straight away in his new incarnation, they aren't pulling it out of nothing. It's a direct contradiction to the lore of the character. 

Maybe going forward they will use the "undefeated" thing to refer to that he has never been truly killed (because his soul remains blah blah), or that he is always "reborn" in a new body and THAT version is undefeated - both of which I think are cheap technicalities that ruin the character. OR, if they are saying that he hasn't lost the war, so he is not defeated in that sense, then I think that is pretty cool. Although if they want to show the latter, they need to specify it clearly, as the lore and story as it currently stands contradicts what they are telling me about the character. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Heijoshin

[robpro]

Personally, I never let the fluff get in the way of a good time. I largely ignore it. I like cool looking models and interesting game mechanics and challenging matchups more than the soap opera of retcons and contradictions that tend to comprise the backstory.

[Overread]

Loads of people are self titled with lies or mistruthes or stretches of the imagination. Lords who are noble and just are still capable of doing foul deeds. Katakross is no difference, plus whilst the Ossiarchs are "technically" a machine-like army, they still have individual will and ideals and goals in life. So chances are that he's "marketing" himself to his own troops by being the "undefeated". Heck it might even take a dark turn since his army is technically limitless - he might start to kill/remove/mindwipe any present at a defeat in battle so that there are none, within his own ranks, who have seen him defeated (any retreat/defeat would then be marketed out as a tactical victory of smarts etc...). 

 

Besides whilst he's been defeated 3 or so times, he's had a LOT LOT LOT more victories in general. Plus lets not undersell it; he basically went and smacked Chaos right on the nose in their own fortress realm setting. That's basically like going up and smashing a good few feet into the Chaos Wastes in the Old World - which even Gotrek (in them days) couldn't achieve (they managed a rescue mission once and most of that was through the massive airship). 

 

[Sception]

On 1/31/2020 at 2:21 PM, Dracan said:

So Honset Wargamer just updated their stats for everything since winter FAQ 16 Dec... and petrifix ossiarchs didnt break the game... like at all... Not even a single first place...

I was one of the more outspoken posters in this thread about Petrifex being a problem, at least when the book first came out.  I've been more quiet about it in recent weeks, but only because I haven't really had time for AoS at all lately.  But even in my case the argument was never that Petrifex break *the game*, and rather that petrifex break *the ossiarch bonereapers* both by obsoleting the other subfactions and by masking problems with the points valuation of many of their units.  +1 armor save all the time and +1 rend when you want it in melee are such big boosts, and are so much bigger than what any non-petrifex unit gets, that every unit in the game is either underpriced for petrifex or, far more commonly, overpriced for everything else.

Basically it leads to a situation where...

On 2/4/2020 at 8:45 AM, Heijoshin said:

OBR AKA Petrifex

Yeah.  That.  That's the problem.  Admittedly not a problem that throws the whole game out of wack, but definitely something that negatively effects the internal balance of the faction.

And it's a problem that can only be fixed by adjusting the OBR subfaction rules themselves - either by tuning petrifex down or tuning all the others up - some of them considerably so.  And even then custom, non-specific-legion would be left behind - though fixing that is a bigger problem than petrifex and would require a larger restructuring of the game by introducing some sort of generic subfaction ruleset, probably realm-of-origin base.  Like every army would select both an allegiance (by default one of the grand alliances) and origin (one of the mortal realms) ruleset by default, with more specific faction rules replacing your allegiance and more specific subfaction rules replacing your origin.

But that would be a major restructuring of the AoS army building rules on the level of introducing allegiances in the first place, and would probably require a new edition of the core rules to implement.  And even if something like that were in place, something like the current petrifex situation would still need targeted adjustment.

[Kringle]

Hi guys!

 

Got my first tournament coming up. And I'm bringing the following list (unless you can convince me not to!):

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers

- Legion: Petrifex Elite

Leaders
Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament (360)
Liege-Kavalos (200)
- General
- Trait: Mighty Archaeossian
- Artefact: Godbone Armour
Mortisan Soulmason (140)
- Lore of Mortisans: Arcane Command

Battleline
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield

Behemoths
Gothizzar Harvester (200)
Mortek Crawler (200)
Mortek Crawler (200)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112
 

Got a lot of damage from the crawlers through the liege and soulmason support. I expect there to be a fair amount of shooting and magic, so made that choice.

Got some decent survivability from 2*20 Guard and a Harvester.

 

What would you consider some weakspots for me that I should watch out for? 

[Dala]

Hey, I saw that KO and Tzeentch got their FAQs recently and I remember someone saying OBR should get one as well at the same time but couldn't find anything. Are we still expecting this to happen soon or does it mean GW just doesn't feel like OBR needs a FAQ yet?

[Arcian]

1 hour ago, Dala said:

Hey, I saw that KO and Tzeentch got their FAQs recently and I remember someone saying OBR should get one as well at the same time but couldn't find anything. Are we still expecting this to happen soon or does it mean GW just doesn't feel like OBR needs a FAQ yet?

We got our FAQ a few months ago iirc. Unless you're meaning another one?

[Neinball]

44 minutes ago, Arcian said:

We got our FAQ a few months ago iirc. Unless you're meaning another one?

Yup, OBR already got their post launch FAQ and won’t get any further updates until at least the big FAQ at the beginning of the year or (more likely) until the GHB in the summer.

[Talas]

And I'm glad, I think people were just overreacting about Petrifex. As tournaments show, PE is very strong but still manageable... unlike Tzeentch, that was truly broken.

[Darkhan]

Just a super quick question, mortek shield-corps battalion, is it 1 free reroll on each players turn. Or 1 free reroll per turn as a whole.

[Turragor]

18 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

Just a super quick question, mortek shield-corps battalion, is it 1 free reroll on each players turn. Or 1 free reroll per turn as a whole.

Once per turn is both yours and opponents. Unless an ability is "in your turn". Shield wall is "You can use this command ability at the start of the combat phase" not "your" so it's something you can do in both.

That's AFAIK anyway. I have yet to play OBR, just painting up.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Turragor

[Dala]

9 hours ago, Arcian said:

We got our FAQ a few months ago iirc. Unless you're meaning another one?

Yeah, I was hoping for something to fix the legion balance so that Petrifex isn't so high above all the others. You can tell there's something wrong when all tournament armies pick the same subfaction.

[Neinball]

7 hours ago, Dala said:

Yeah, I was hoping for something to fix the legion balance so that Petrifex isn't so high above all the others. You can tell there's something wrong when all tournament armies pick the same subfaction.

Honestly the same thing happens for DoK, Idoneth, SCE, and many others. People decide which subfaction is the most powerful and everyone flocks to that one. And since Petrifex isn’t game breaking I wouldn’t expect any changes anytime soon. 

[SilverJelly]

On 2/5/2020 at 12:22 PM, Kringle said:

Hi guys!

 

Got my first tournament coming up. And I'm bringing the following list (unless you can convince me not to!):

Allegiance: Ossiarch Bonereapers

- Legion: Petrifex Elite

Leaders
Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament (360)
Liege-Kavalos (200)
- General
- Trait: Mighty Archaeossian
- Artefact: Godbone Armour
Mortisan Soulmason (140)
- Lore of Mortisans: Arcane Command

Battleline
5 x Kavalos Deathriders (180)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield
20 x Mortek Guard (260)
- Nadirite Blade and Shield

Behemoths
Gothizzar Harvester (200)
Mortek Crawler (200)
Mortek Crawler (200)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 112
 

Got a lot of damage from the crawlers through the liege and soulmason support. I expect there to be a fair amount of shooting and magic, so made that choice.

Got some decent survivability from 2*20 Guard and a Harvester.

 

What would you consider some weakspots for me that I should watch out for? 

I think your list is solid. I think the big issue will be getting across the board and taking objectives. The way your list is built, it's a very defensive list. The majority threat from your list is going to come from the Crawlers and to get the most out of them you will need to keep your heros back and the the buff range of your heros is what limits your movement. As long as your are able to clear 50% of an army or lock them in combat you will be able to reach objective using the Deathrider to get the major.  Otherwise, your playing for the minor victory hoping your opponent makes a major mistake. I may be completely wrong. I look forward to hearing how your tournament goes.

[Sception]

On 2/5/2020 at 5:16 AM, Heijoshin said:

He knows he's been defeated and it shames and enrages him beyond measure. That's his whole deal. He hates Sigmar for getting his head smashed in, but with this new body, NOW he has reached his prime and now that he has essentially been "reborn", he can claim his title of being undefeated once again.....

....Until Wrath of the Everchosen. 

Nowhere does it state that he actually doesn't believe he was ever defeated. He tells people that he has never been defeated because, let's be honest, he's a complete autocratic moron that doesn't want to look weak to people that are afraid to him. That's why he does not correct them when they give him his old title back. He's prideful and arrogant, not delusional. If he never thought he was defeated, he wouldn't be so damn angry. Nagash literally uses the shame and anger of his defeat to Sigmar to shape Katakros into who he is now:

The impression I got is that "Undefeated" isn't a title he chose for himself, but rather one that was given to him by those he leads, and that he's too prideful to correct even though the title effectively acts as a constant insult to that same pride, always digging into his mind, filling him with bitterness and resentment that he the then channels into crushing his enemies.  Probably something Nagash came up with deliberately, as he loves bestowing 'gifts' on his servants that they experience as painful ironic curses but that somehow also make them better and stronger servants of Nagash.  See Tamra in 'the Undying King', or the lore for like every unit and character in the nighthaunt book.

To my reading 'the Undefeated' was never meant to be understood unironically, it's always been an ironic insult and as such not out of step with any new events that would further contradict it.

Looking past the duel itself, Wrath of the Everchosen still...

Spoiler

Tells the story of how Archaon went to free Slaanesh, failed to do so, had to turn in when he found the central stronghold of chaos power i the setting was under attack, returned to find that the Bonereapers had successfully taken territory from chaos within the allpoints and laid siege to his fortress at the center.  He crushed the army laying siege there, but hasn't, and its strongly suggested he won't be able to, shaken the fortifications around the death gate.

And notably within the main setting, while the forces of order were able to break the chaos hold on the realm-side of some of the major 8-point gates, the forces of death, spearheaded by the bonereapers, are the first and so far only force to successfully take territory back from chaos within the 8-points itself since the age of chaos.

Wrath of the Everchosen really does, despite all signs to the contrary - including the title, cover, and overwhelming preponderance of rules support within the book, tell the story of yet another largely one sided victory for the undead, in what has been a continuous string of largely one sided victories for the undead going back to the Malign Portents and the Necroquake.

Lore-wise AoS 2e has been and continues to be the Age of Nagash, and Wrath of the Everchosen, despite my very wrong initial impression, is no exception.

Edited February 15, 2020 by Sception

[Casandora Yellow]

So maybe it's just me, but does anyone think list building is pretty boring for Bonereapers?

Everytime I'm thinking of fun lists to play at my local gw its always bringing 30 mortek guard and my blob of 6 stalkers, catapult,  liege, maybe swap him out for Arkhan, Mason and shaper. I do need to invest in some deathriders and maybe a harvester. But I always end up feeling Mortek are the better take. 

 

Am I just completely wrong on this?🤔

[Sception]

Not completely, but riders and harvester are definitely runnable, as is kayakros, and that's already significantly more practical variety in terms of tools to work with than most starting AoS factions got in their initial releases.  It would help if the subfaction rules were more varried and more balanced, but even so.

And I'm sure we'll eventually be seeing more bonereaper units in the future.  Some have already been named even (eg liege mortek).

[Incineroar87]

There's been a few tournament lists that have done well, believe one list won  just using Death Riders as the core + Nagash, so it's def playable.  Nearly every ORB unit / character is viable.

[Major]

which is stronger and why???

1.
Nagash
Liege-Kavalos
Boneshaper
Boneshaper
20 x Mortek Guard
20 x Mortek Guard
10 x Mortek Guard
(5 RD points before 7 x D6 rolls)

OR

2.
Katakros
Liege-Kavalos
Boneshaper
Boneshaper
20 x Mortek Guard
20 x Mortek Guard
20 x Mortek Guard
1 x Mortek Crawler
Bone-Tithe Shrieker
Soulstealer Carion
(9 RD points before 8 x D6 rolls)

Edited February 12, 2020 by Major

[woolf]

Hi guys, what do you think about this list? too trolly? ^^

Liege-Kavalos (General)

Soulmason

3x Boneshaper

40x Mortek

20x Mortek

20x Mortek

10x Mortek

10x Mortek

Shrieker

[Sleboda]

14 hours ago, woolf said:

Hi guys, what do you think about this list? too trolly? ^^

Liege-Kavalos (General)

Soulmason

3x Boneshaper

40x Mortek

20x Mortek

20x Mortek

10x Mortek

10x Mortek

Shrieker

Awesome! Go for it!!! 😁

[Arcian]

So I have two lists that i've been toying with. The first one i've been playing a few games with and it seems like it's doing well, but I have a second i've been thinking of trying out just to see if I can work more "punch" in. I've kind of been avoiding running big three blocks of guard, but I might think about it since  the first list has six drops and the second has seven.

Leaders:
Arkhan the Black
Katakros

Battleline:
20 mortek guard
20 mortek guard
5 deathriders

Others:
6 Stalkers

Endless Spell

The other list is

Leaders:
Katakros
Soulmason (godbone armor)

Battleline:
20 mortek guard
20 mortek guard
5 deatheriders

Others:
6 Stalkers

Behemoth:
1 Crawler

Endless Spell

Edited February 14, 2020 by Arcian

[Bryan I Guess]

18 hours ago, Arcian said:

So I have two lists that i've been toying with. The first one i've been playing a few games with and it seems like it's doing well, but I have a second i've been thinking of trying out just to see if I can work more "punch" in. I've kind of been avoiding running big three blocks of guard, but I might think about it since  the first list has six drops and the second has seven.

Leaders:
Arkhan the Black
Katakros

Battleline:
20 mortek guard
20 mortek guard
5 deathriders

Others:
6 Stalkers

Endless Spell

The other list is

Leaders:
Katakros
Soulmason (godbone armor)

Battleline:
20 mortek guard
20 mortek guard
5 deatheriders

Others:
6 Stalkers

Behemoth:
1 Crawler

Endless Spell

I have used your exact list #2 to some great effect so far. My Mortek Crawler is a WiP so I dont like to use its base too much, but I have given it a good couple of test runs.

The crawler really forces your opponent to think about a lot of stuff they normally wouldn't against this list. Which is great. 

Blobs of 6 stalkers are a beautiful sight and will kill everything they touch. Especially with Katakros.

I think the 5 Deathriders are almost essential to the list because you have nothing else to A] score some early objective points or B] threaten back line objectives.

The challenge for this list is protecting your back line. Against super fast or teleporting armies we struggle to block the board with only our two blocks of 20 guard. I had a keeper of secrets squeeze between my two blobs and a terrain piece and assassinate my Katakros. The great thing about this list is that it still has a lot even after losing Katakros. 

I have played into Slaanesh and FEC with this list and have won both games. It's fun and has a lot to work with.

[Obeisance]

So OBR is super common locally. There'sa lot of Mortek spam with Katacross and/or Arkhan.

Last tournament I played in was a month ago.. played 3 other OBR players (all wins) and got crushed by pre-new book Tzeentch.

So question I have for you:

How are you playing into the mirror/Tzeentch and how are you building to counter?

I feel like playing into OBR is about making sure you deny Empower Weapons, maximising recursion and getting to objectives and staying there first.

Protection of Nagash is such a double edged sword. Teleports you when you don't want to.

[Major]

can someone help explain to me the appeal of Mortek Crawlers in competitive lists? How are they used? How are the effective when the cauldron seems to only be good vs models/units with bravery 5 or less and nothing once it takes damage and Steele is only good after taking damage if you want to use it (or am I wrong here maybe?) so why am I seeing lists with 2 and sometimes more of these? I want to like these so someone help me understand the appeal!