AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[Gwendar]

4 hours ago, Izikail said:

The horses were ok, nothing special and a bit week for there points when compared to things like gor gruntas

The liege is a bit week, and the artifacts arnt much use on him as half his damage is from his mount but he is more a buff vector to me

I think the best scenario here is to run a Liege\Zandtos with 1x10 (at least) Deathriders which put out decent numbers and you still have mobility and you can return slain models back to the unit, which you can't do with Stalkers\Morghasts outside of the Feast of Bones battalion. Combine that with the Helm and a Soulmason (which you're probably taking anyway) and you have a mobile, decently killy unit and that's before counting the potential damage coming out of their CA.. if that still stacks after an FAQ then they'll be even better. All in all, you really shouldn't compare raw power of units across armies in a vacuum like that.

Personally, I've really been starting to not even consider Stalkers at all and going more with Deathriders + a Crawler or Harbingers for the 3d6 charge. Running a battalion is still a hard justification and I, like most, think we really just need to get games in before making too many 'on-paper' calls. I've seen some people playing Petrifex using only 20-10-10 or 10-10-10 Mortek and they hold up remarkably well. Killing potential may be lower however which means you really need to spend points into killing things efficiently (Stalkers) or moving around the board... and Deathriders can do both in the right light.

I mean yeah, we aren't going to be the next Slaanesh which I'm quite thankful for. We don't need anymore of that kind of shenanigans... at least until the insanity that Tzeentch and Seraphon will likely become.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Gwendar

[DioRa]

In the general discussion there is this hilarious thread going on how OP the ossiarchs are.

We could be OP as the claimants say if our point costs were not so high

Edited November 3, 2019 by DioRa

[Kugane]

20 minutes ago, DioRa said:

In the general discussion there is this hilarious thread going on how OP the ossiarchs are.

We could be OP as the claimants say if our point costs were not so high

The thread ends in a question mark for a reason though :P. Its to provoke discussion.

[Lordneylon]

Dear Friends,

I would like to know your opinion on crematorian viability to be played in semi-competitive enviorement.

I am in love with this subfaction. I dont intend to use Arkhan.

Do you think it would be necessary in 2k lists to go minimum 2x40 mortek guard? and to use 2 harvester?

Or it would be viable to balance a bit the units: 1x40, 1x20 and 1x10 morteks and only 1 harvester in order to include some immortis or stalkers?

How many Boneshapers without Arkhan, 2?

Thanks for your comments.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Lordneylon

[DioRa]

9 minutes ago, Lordneylon said:

Dear Friends,

I would like to know your opinion on crematorian viability to be played in semi-competitive enviorement.

I am in love with this subfaction. I dont intend to use Arkhan.

Do you think it would be necessary in 2k lists to go minimum 2x40 mortek guard? and to use 2 harvester?

Or it would be viable to balance a bit the units: 1x40, 1x20 and 1x10 morteks and only 1 harvester in order to include some immortis or stalkers?

How many Boneshapers without Arkhan, 2?

Thanks for your comments.

Why units of 40 specific? With so much healing, I think a unit of 20 will be just fine. Not to mention, the smaller the unit the easier it is to give them more wholly within bubble buffs. A unit of 10 is a waste I'd say, though with the crematorian units of 10 might function more as exploding suicide tarpits for a turn?

Healing a unit of mortek would be viable from 20+ unit size. Then there is the question of harvesters, how would you field them? 2 next to each other, one per unit? Would you put them in the back of the unit, or would they be at the front causing as much damage as possible, but at risk of being destroyed themselves?

As for boneshapers, can't go wrong with 2 of them, cheaper than 1 arkhan.

[Sception]

Crematorians are cool and fun, but if you're serious about being competitive I thing petrifex are always going to be better.

Still, if you're trying to be competitive with crematorians, I'd look at combining the shield guard battalion with the trident formation and just spam as many mortek gruard as you can.  Something like:

Soulmason, general, legion trait, drain vitality
Soulreaper, legion artefact, mortal contract
Boneshaper, artisan's key, empower weapond
Boneshaper, lode of saturation, reinforce shields

40 Mortek Guard, swords
40 Mortek Guard, swords
10 Mortek Guard, swords

Gothizar Harvister

Mortisan Trident
Mortek Shield-Corps

Bone-Tithe Shrieker

Total:1990 points
6+ discipline points per turn
2 drop deployment

 

Good set of buffs, lots of casting, one harvester who can position himself between the two big blocks, two boneshapers plus key for healing, ton of morteks to crump things & explode in their faces.

Same list would be better as petrifex, but the Crematorians trait would certainly make itself felt here.

Not as much wacky fun stuff & different units as I like, but if you're aiming to be competitive you can't always take what you want.

 

Edit:  yes I did steal this list from the just saying podcast, apart from diff artefacts & legion.  That said, it's kind of an auto-build list for crematorians, since the two formations together combine all their favorite stuff: harvester, multiple boneshapers, and lots of mortek guard. 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Sception

[Sception]

13 minutes ago, DioRa said:

Why units of 40 specific?

Because you have to take some anyway for battleline (cav lists aside), and once you start tsking them you might as well take more, since they're our most efficient unit both offensively and defensively, plus the faction leans hard on buffs which are more efficient on bigger units.  And the unit gets even more efficient at 40, so why not?

Spamming MG gets even more tempting in crematorians, where they're by far the most efficient explosion fodder and the easiest to heal to explode again.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Sception

[DioRa]

20 minutes ago, Sception said:

Because you have to take some anyway for battleline (cav lists aside), and once you start tsking them you might as well take more, since they're our most efficient unit both offensively and defensively, plus the faction leans hard on buffs which are more efficient on bigger units.  And the unit gets even more efficient at 40, so why not?

Spamming MG gets even more tempting in crematorians, where they're by far the most efficient explosion fodder and the easiest to heal to explode again.

True, but wouldn't multiple units of 20 not cover more ground. Be able to go for more objectives. I feel if you tie up too many points in big singular units you will be rather limited on board presence. When it comes down to crematorium the main shtick would be the whole suicide factor, widdle down your opponent with exploding skeletons. So you are kind of already hoping on throwing away units to increase damage.

And when it comes down to sustainability for healing, I don't see any enemy wiping out a unit of 20 in one turn easily. And having points in a unit of 40 tied up in one location on the battlefield seems risky. It's an excellent anvil, but if you want to just spam mortek guard then you miss those hammer units to slam into the anvil target.

This is all just paper theorizing and it will all depend on opponents and such. In the end people need to start playing with them to see what works and what not.

[Tronhammer NZ]

Had a game last night against Da Big WAAAGH.

List I ran was:
 

Arkhan	360
Liege	200
Soul Mason	140
Mortek Guard x 10	130
Mortek Guard x 10	130
Mortek Guard x 10	130
Mortek Crawler	200
Mortek Crawler	200
Morghast Harbingers	210
Morghast Archai	210
Shrieker	30
Carrion	20
Predator	40
	2000

 

Big take-aways:

Mortek Crawlers should almost always make their points back.  Opponent gave me first turn and I took 360 points worth of models off. Cauldron shot into arrow orruks killed 10, and the normal shot removed a unit of Gore Gruntas. Later in the game I got a Cursed Stele off having taken 10 wounds and killed the general. I will be taking at least 2 in every game going forward. If anything gets nerfed, it will be these things. 

I did a big mis-play by allowing Hand of Gork to teleport big threats into my backline, so wont make that mistake again. Took the Crawlers offline early. Next time I would take the Ballisteri.

The durability as Petrifex is insane. The Liege in particular was a total tank., but he did end up going down once his Gore Gruntas got the extra damage buff.

The Carrion is a really cool spell!

I kept forgetting all the buffs I had available, you really need to manage it. 

My opponent won by just, having won 4 out of 4 priority rolls. We played Penumbral Domain out of Forbidden Power. Cannot wait to play the army more, it was a LOT of fun and was absolutely stoked with how they withstood the green bois.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Tronhammer NZ

[DioRa]

@Tronhammer NZ How would you rate the Morghast performance? Made use of any buffs with them? How well did each endless spell perform? Also small units of 10 mortek guard were they enough?

[Sception]

17 minutes ago, DioRa said:

True, but wouldn't multiple units of 20 not cover more ground. Be able to go for more objectives. I feel if you tie up too many points in big singular units you will be rather limited on board presence. When it comes down to crematorium the main shtick would be the whole suicide factor, widdle down your opponent with exploding skeletons. So you are kind of already hoping on throwing away units to increase damage.

And when it comes down to sustainability for healing, I don't see any enemy wiping out a unit of 20 in one turn easily. And having points in a unit of 40 tied up in one location on the battlefield seems risky. It's an excellent anvil, but if you want to just spam mortek guard then you miss those hammer units to slam into the anvil target.

This is all just paper theorizing and it will all depend on opponents and such. In the end people need to start playing with them to see what works and what not.

2x20 can claim more objectives, sure, but they don't necessarily cover more ground due to wanting to stay in buff ranges of various heroes.   And since Mortek Guard aren't the fastest unit in the army a lot of other enemies are going to be able to out-maneuver them and pick their fights, so you could easily find one unit going up against multiple enemy units where even with rerolls you're at risk of losing a full 20, especially if the opponent gets a double turn before you get the chance to heal.

And this goes extra for Crematorians, since they won't get the petrifex save boost, so they'll drop that little bit faster.

Plus 40 morteks is 80 points cheaper than 2x20, and that adds up.  What would you drop to switch to more smaller units?  formations?  Heroes?

 

That said, yeah, it's all just theory hammer for now.  No telling how this stuff's going to shake out.  It's just my first impression of what a crematorians list would look like if it's trying to actually make serious competitive use out of the ability and not just be a fun times casual gimmick.  Honestly, the fun times stuff is more where my own heart is, so I don't think my own lists will be spamming Mortek Guard nearly so hard.  Not least because I'd actually like to have my army be painted for once.

[Tronhammer NZ]

Units of 10 were almost enough for the job actually, they tanked quite well. But more bodies would be better.

Morghast were so-so, not heloed by getting caught on the backfoot by Hand of Gork. The extra attacks and reroll 1s to hit were cool. Had I got the double turn I would have had them around longer thanks to heals. 2 Archai withstood a charge from 10+ Boar Boyz without losing a model.

I only got to use the Carrion, and that worked a treat in the right place. Very good for 20 points. Arkhan heals so much between this, his own ability and his 3 heals. He went from 7 wounds taken back to full health in no time. I combo'd it with the Protection of Nagash, which meant he could still heal regardless of where he is on the battlefield. And you get to place Carrion anywhere on the battlefield! I imagine it is a must for Nagash too. The minus to hit from soul linked is tricky, need to remember to cast it last. And having cast it, means he can't cast any more soul linked spells. 

[DioRa]

2 minutes ago, Tronhammer NZ said:

The minus to hit from soul linked is tricky, need to remember to cast it last. And having cast it, means he can't cast any more soul linked spells. 

I'd assume you could've casted the shrieker on a support wizard like the soulmason? Sure the -1 to cast hurts him more than Arkhan (thanks to his own buffs to casting).

I like the carrion on paper for Arkhan and Nagash. But also like the shrieker a lot just to help out our units. Not convinced on the predator sadly.

[Arcian]

So i'm a little confused on how Shieldwall works for the mortek guards. When I do the reroll, am I rerolling say the 3+ (if petrifex) minus and negative modifiers or am I rerolling the save with negative modifiers? 

[NoMaDhOoK]

23 minutes ago, Arcian said:

So i'm a little confused on how Shieldwall works for the mortek guards. When I do the reroll, am I rerolling say the 3+ (if petrifex) minus and negative modifiers or am I rerolling the save with negative modifiers? 

You can reroll any (so you can reroll a 3 if you want). There are two types of rerolls in the game:

- Reroll failed x

- Reroll x

The former means you can only reroll ones that fail (before any modifiers). 

The latter means you can even reroll successful rolls of you want to (essentially allowing you to reroll all those that would have failed after modifiers) 

[Arcian]

5 minutes ago, NoMaDhOoK said:

You can reroll any (so you can reroll a 3 if you want). There are two types of rerolls in the game:

- Reroll failed x

- Reroll x

The former means you can only reroll ones that fail (before any modifiers). 

The latter means you can even reroll successful rolls of you want to (essentially allowing you to reroll all those that would have failed after modifiers) 

Ah ok got it! That sounds pretty good . So does that in theory let you bypass the negative modifiers, or would they still apply?

Edited November 3, 2019 by Arcian

[NoMaDhOoK]

49 minutes ago, Arcian said:

Ah ok got it! That sounds pretty good . So does that in theory let you bypass the negative modifiers, or would they still apply?

The negative modifiers still apply after your rerolls, but it means you can still reroll it. 

E.g: you have a 3+ save and something hits you with -2 rend (so you need a 5+ to save) . 

- In the first case of "reroll failed x" (not mortek guard), you can only reroll 1, and 2's. And you need a 5+ to save

- The second case of "reroll x" (like mortek guard CA) you can reroll 1,2,3, and 4's (those that would fail after rend). However, after the reroll you still need a 5+ to save 

Edited November 3, 2019 by NoMaDhOoK

[Lordneylon]

Dear Friends,

Regarding crematorian list speculation, my 2k proposed list is as follows:

HEROES:

- 2 x Boneshapers (stay in the backline near morteks)

- 1 x Soulreaper or 1 x Soulmason (if soulreaper then go agressively with immortis or if soulmason then stay in back or middle line supporting).

BATTLELINE

- 1 x 30 Morterk guard

- 1 x 30 Mortek guard

- 1 x  5 Deathriders (for some mobility or 1 x 10 Mortek guard to save 50 points)

(Or 1 x 40 Mortek guard and 1 x  20 Mortek guard to save 80 points)

ELITE

- 1 Harvester

- 6 Immortis (as an anvil and Mortisan heroes protection) or 6 stalker (to put preasure on key enemy units) or 3xImmortis + 3xStalker (to have more tactical options)

ENDLESS SPELLS

- Endless Spells till achieve 2k

What do you think?

In my opinion doing a MW at +5 when dying could be a little bit marginal,  for this reason resurrecting could be crucial for crematorian armies and 6 stalkers/immortis to put preasure could be important.

Thanks for your comments!

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Lordneylon

[Scurvydog]

Played 2 meeting engagement games over the weekend, sadly I lost both both was pretty good fun. My list:

Petrifex elite

liege kavalos (general + artefact) and 3 stalkers in spearhead

Boneshaper and 20 mortek guard main body

2 morghast archai rearguard

Game 1 was against gitz. Started good by turn 2 my stalkers wiped a sneaky unit of 20 stabbas (hand of gorked to backline) with the liege tagging along. After that it went downhill fast. I did not lose much, but my opponent had his loonshrine pretty central (meeting engagements are on smaller tables) and an ability to try to regin dead untis at 50% strength in his hero phase also. 

In the end my mortek guard held as rocks, but got bogged down in constant floods of grots, unable to just get close enough to the objective I needed and 1 stupid loonboss with -2 to be hit basically tanked my stalkers and liege, actually over 2 rounds killing 2 stalkers by some miracle. I got the kill objective every time, but lost on main objective from simply being filled with grots. 

My second game was against slaanesh (oh boy) with a keeper, chariot hero, masque, 2x20 marauders and 10 demonettes. Went as expected and was forced to commit wo the center objective (in rearguard action) with no way to get around him in time. His KoS stood behind a wall of marauders, using his 2" reach and forcing my to strike last. The big battle came down to my stalkers and morghast striking last. my Mortek killing a good bunch of screening demonettes, then the keeper killed all the stalkers, then struck again on killed 1 morghast. The morghast whiffed and got killed by 20 marauders.

My mortek held fast, but then his turn came and I was out of discipline points, the keeper then killed them too.

For some reason my opponent and onlookers complained about how overpowered my units were, with 3+ saves and rerolls, 6+ minion save etc. while my army just got hacked to pieces by nearly 1 model... 

My main impressions so far:

As I expected we wont be on par with the "big boys" no strike first or double combat abilities should keep as well out of the regular podium factions. We have some fun stuff though, but I feel the reapers are just a good army running petrifex, but I fear just about "ok-ish" with anything else. Tough units alone dont win games, and with a mediocre output and a stark lack of bodies to capture objectives and block+hold them. You can have 10 guys with 1+ rerollable saves and damage ignores, but that wont get that unit of 40 clanrats of the objective, as they got there first thanks to movement shenanigans.

Basically if the opponent could just put enough guys on an objective, it would take too long for me to remove them usually, even in a winning fight. Facing rend 2 units will just crumble the army, with no way to influence the combat order, while others can.

With a liege and boneshaper on the board at most, I only ever got a max of 4 points, and never had enough for the entire battleround, especially as adding movement was so crucial. The liege adding 2 was absolutely required in a 1k game even. He did not die in any of the game, nobody bothered to attack him with 9 wounds, 2+ save and ignoring the first wound per phase, but his output was easily ignored as well anyway.

The terrain piece is pretty cool. It got me 2 of my very limited points vs slaanesh round 1 due to sniping 1 demonette with 1 MW, giving me the only kill scored that turn  

Otherwise I never managed the 4+ rolls I tried on the KoS for -1 hit. But I like having it, and being able to place it anywhere before other terrain allows you to place it for example super central.

So far I stick to my analysis I posted in the ridiculous thread in general about Bonereapers being "hideously overpowered". They lack just about all the core tools that places the top armies at the top currently. They are very strong against all the "mid tier" armies if running petrifex, but the other legions will just be at best a very middle of the pack army or lower. I might be wrong but that is what I expect to see in upcoming events at least. The mortal wound output, movement shenanigans, objective grabbing, and combat phase manipulating ailities are not present in this book to compete at the absolute top (and I actually think that is the level of army ideal for having actual fun games).                                                                             

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Scurvydog

[Amradiel]

The battletome has just been out for a day and all models are not released yet and I see post after post where people say that this army is "meh". I don't get it. How can someone possible know that by now? I don't want to believe it.

[Overread]

It's normal and because people weight their arguments and interpret the stats in different ways which can lead to different results. That's before they hit their local games (if they do) with the army since local game situations vary a lot. A few easy early wins and the army is overpowered; a few early easy loses and its a lost cause. 

 

The result is you get some who are dead set that something new is totally broken, whilst an equally informed group is convinced that its underpowered. 

 

 

In general I wouldn't pay too much mind to either group to much  - get your models; build; paint; game and enjoy and see how things are in a couple of weeks/months.

 

[Arcian]

And it sounds like scurvy had some bad luck in his first game and went against the current top tier army that can chew up most armies in his second game. If i'm understanding his post's part about his games correctly. 

[Scurvydog]

1 minute ago, Arcian said:

And it sounds like scurvy had some bad luck in his first game and went against the current top tier army that can chew up most armies in his second game. If i'm understanding his post's part about his games correctly. 

Yes well the slaanesh army at least, in 1k af Kos is even harder to deal with than in 2k. Loosing to stabbas hordes was actually good fun though, I lost 14 wounds worth total but still could not win any objectives, so was well played by my opponent and interesting. 

My thoughts are positive however, as I said even being the top of the middle is a good place to be, and a good balance goal for all armies, so I am happy that this army seems to sit there. This might change if someone discovers the golden combo. 

I think the army needs the +1 save though to be there, but I will gladly eat my words if we see lists outside petrifex doing well in the competitive scene. If you have someone you dislike who plays tzeentch tough, you can make that person weep by bringing null myriad, you nasty person you. 

[Arcian]

1 minute ago, Scurvydog said:

Yes well the slaanesh army at least, in 1k af Kos is even harder to deal with than in 2k. Loosing to stabbas hordes was actually good fun though, I lost 14 wounds worth total but still could not win any objectives, so was well played by my opponent and interesting. 

My thoughts are positive however, as I said even being the top of the middle is a good place to be, and a good balance goal for all armies, so I am happy that this army seems to sit there. This might change if someone discovers the golden combo. 

I think the army needs the +1 save though to be there, but I will gladly eat my words if we see lists outside petrifex doing well in the competitive scene. If you have someone you dislike who plays tzeentch tough, you can make that person weep by bringing null myriad, you nasty person you. 

Unfortunate (or fortunately?) that nobody plays tzeentch in my area I don't think. So I probably wont have a chance to just say "no" haha. Some fyreslayers and skaven though. So that might be a bit rough. 

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Arcian said:

fyreslayers and skaven

Armies like this are what I would worry about most and why I really think @Tronhammer NZ is on point with wanting 1-2 Crawlers. In that same 'OBR are OP' thread, the discussion currently seems to be on them and they're ludicrous ability at killing support heroes or... well, anything really. 

Tron, I may borrow your list (or find a way for more bodies at least) in the coming future 😉