AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[Scurvydog]

14 minutes ago, Heijoshin said:

So basically the Morghasts can shrug it off too? Is it just me or is that a lot of shrugs and potential to just nullify lots if damage? 

Yes once the hero fails a save or gets a MW you roll a dice to transfer the wound. On 2+ it works but on a 5+ in the battalion it is ignored and not allocated at all. If the roll is 2-4 then it is allocated to the bodyguard. In the case of archai and mortal wounds they can then ignore it on 5+ and after that their 6++. 

Basically it is a bad idea to try and throw mortal wounds at a hero with archai guards from the aegis battalion. 

[Heijoshin]

4 minutes ago, Sception said:

Keep in mind that you don't get shrugs from the original target, just regular saves.  So attack targets the hero, rolls to hit and wound as normal, hero rolls to save, unsaved wounds result in damage.  Before that damage is allocated to the hero (so before they get any shrugs), roll to shift the damage to the bodyguard unit.  After allocating the damage (either to the guarding unit or the hero depending on die results), you then roll any appropriate shrugs, before finally applying wounds to the units in question.  In the end it's the same number of saves/shrugs as you'd get otherwise, with an extra transfer step inserted in the middle.

Ah thats good to know! I was wondering if this would work in conjunction with the spell that gave the 5+fnp on MW for those with shields (and give it to the liege first). I was starting to gawp in disbelief at how many shrugs this could do 

[Sception]

The 5+ shrug from the spell would be applied after any wound are transferred, since it applies to allocated wounds and the bodyguard ability just changes who those wounds are allocated to.

Example:  Your army includes a Mortisian Soulreaper within 3+ of a unit of 2 Immortis Guard (the third model in the unit having been slain earlier in the battle).  The Soulreaper knows the spell 'Reinforce Battle-Shields' and has successfully cast it on the Immortis Guard in your previous hero phase.  During the enemy's hero phase, an enemy wizard scores a lucky arcane bolt on your Mortisian Soulreaper, causing 3 mortal wounds.  The hero does not get any armor saves against mortal wounds, so now you skip straight to allocation.  Normally the mortal wounds would just be allocated to the unit that was targeted, but the Immortis Guard's ability triggers, so you roll for each mortal wound and on a 2+ that mortal wound is allocated to the Immortis Guard unit instead.  You roll 1, 3, and 6, so one mortal wound is allocated to the Soulreaper and two are allocated to the Immortis Guard unit.  The Soulreaper is an OBR hero, so you roll the normal 6++ shrug against the mortal wound allocated to them.  You roll a 5, so they suffer one wound, and have four remaining on their profile.  The Immortis Guard are a Hekatos unit, so they also get the 6++ faction shrug against any normal or mortal wounds allocated to them.  You roll a 2 and a 5, so neither mortal wound is stopped by the faction shrug.  Because of the 'Reinforce Battle-Shields' spell, they have an additional 5++ shrug against mortal wounds that are allocated to them, so you roll again and get a 2 and a 6, nullifying one of the mortal wounds.  You don't have any shrugs left so one wound is applied to one of the Mortis Guard, leaving three remaining on that model.

 

Another example, the same Soulreaper and Immortis Guard are later charged by a unit of 5 enemy cavalry.  between the reach of their weapons and careful charging & piling in, the entire unit is able to target your Soulreaper in the combat phase, scoring a total of 5 successful wounds, each with rend -1 and damage characteristic 2.   The Soulreaper has a 4+ armor save normally, which is modified to a 5+ due to rend. You rol 1, 2, 2, 4, and 5 for armor saves, stopping one of the successful wound rolls.  The four remaining each cause two wounds due to the enemy's damage characteristic, so you have 8 wounds to allocate.  As before, you would normally allocate wounds to the unit attacked, but the bodyguard's rule kicks in.

WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN: technically wounds are allocated and resolved ONE AT A TIME.  You just roll shrugs in batches normally because normally order doesn't matter.  In this case order technically might matter, so what you are supposed to do is, one at a time, roll the bodyguard roll.  On a 1 the wound is allocated to the Soulreaper - roll their 6++ faction shrug and apply the wound to the model if you fail, on a 2+ the wound is allocated to an Immortis - roll their 6++ faction shrug and apply the wound to the unit if you fail.  Note they don't get the 5++ spell shrug as that is for mortals only.

WHAT WILL PROBABLY HAPPEN IN A CASUAL GAME: order of allocation is relatively unlikely to matter in this situation, so you'll probably just roll all the bodyguard rolls at once.  You get 1, 1, 3, 4, 4, 4, 6, 6.  Two wounds are applied to the Soulreaper, he shrugs one of them and is up to two wounds total.  6 wounds are applied to the Immortis, they shrug only one, one immortis is removed as a casualty, with two wounds applied to the last remaining model in the unit.

WHY YOU TECHNICALLY SHOULD ROLL THEM ONE AT A TIME: the amount of damage inflicted is theoretically enough to eliminate one of the units in question.  Since wounds are theoretically allocated one at a time, if one of the units is slain then no more wounds can be transferred.  For instance, lets say you roll nothing but ones.  The first four wounds all go to the Soulreaper, who fails each shrug in turn.  Then the soulreaper is dead.  The remaining wounds cannot be allocated to the Soulreaper in the first place, so they cannot be re-allocated to the Guard, so while your luck is pretty terrible right now you at least don't have to risk taking damage to the Immortis Guard trying to protect a hero who is already dead.  Conversely, lets say you succeed on all your bodyguard rolls, but your shrug rolls are still abysmal.  The first six wounds get transferred to the Immortis unit, who fail each shrug in turn.  The immortis unit is now dead, and thus cannot attempt bodyguard rolls to prevent the last two wounds, both of which go through to the hero without any protection apart from the standard shrug.

NOTE: in the cavalry attacks example, if the cavalry had attacked the Immortis Guard directly, they would have had a better chance to negate attacks with their superior armor saves.  Unfortunately saving throws are made before damage is allocated so they don't get to benefit from their better saving throws on wounds they redirect to themselves.

..

It's a little confusing, but it's not too bad if you take things in a step by step fasion.

1. Roll to hit

2. Roll to wound

3. Roll armor saves

4. Determine damage from unsaved attacks

The above steps can generally be done in batches with no problem.  The following steps should technically be done for each wound or mortal wound one at a time, and can only be done in batches if there's no chance of the outcome changing depending on the order of results.  Note that mortal wounds typically skip the above steps and go straight to allocation.

5. check/roll for any special rules that would result in damage being allocated to another unit instead of the target unit.  If such a rule is triggered, treat the other unit as the target unit for the remaining steps.

6. allocate the wound or mortal wound to a model in the target unit.  If one of the models in the unit is already wounded, you must allocate the wound or mortal wound to that model.  Unless otherwise stated, the controller of the target unit chooses which model to allocate to if none of the models in the unit are already wounded.

7. roll for any other abilities that trigger on allocated wounds or mortal wounds to the target unit - typically these are shrugs saves but there are some damage reflecting abilities & the like that also might trigger here.  These can be done in whatever order the player using the abilities likes, though if both players have abilities that trigger at the same time then the player whose turn it is resolves their abilities first.  Generally order doesn't matter here, but it can.  For instance, when rolling to negate mortal wounds, Nagash should roll for his armor - which might reflect mortal wounds back on the unit that caused them - before rolling the typical death shrug, which just negates the wound with no further advantage.  Also note that some shrugs only work on regular wounds or mortal wounds but not both.  For instance, the 'Reinforce Battle-Shields' spell mentioned above can only negate mortal wounds.

8. assuming the wound is not negated, mark a wound off of the chosen model.  If the total wounds on the model equal the units wounds characteristic, remove the model as a casualty.

...

There's a lot of steps, but they're relatively straight forward, and there's a mechanical logic to the order which you'll internalize with repetition.

[Alaric83]

Been toying with a very aggressive monster-y list, to balance my main army (shooty dwarves). What do you guys think?

 

Legion: Praetorian or Petrix (TBD)

 

Katakros (500)

3*10 Mortek (390)

4 Morghasts Harbingers (420)

6 Stalkers (400)

3 Stalkers (200)

Glaive battalion (80)

 

This brings us comfortably at 1990 points. I think this list could be really fun. The 13 main models are very fast and can move an additional 6’’ before first turn. Katakros heals and buffs.m with Mortek alongside him.

Does this look playable / fun to you?

On the plus side this is also relatively few models to paint.

[Arcian]

33 minutes ago, Sception said:

*big useful info*

This really made a lot of sense for me! I will still probably have to put together a flow chart just to keep it organized in my head  😅

[Scurvydog]

28 minutes ago, Sception said:

The 5+ shrug from the spell would be applied after any wound are transferred, since it applies to allocated wounds and the bodyguard ability just changes who those wounds are allocated to.

Example:  Your army includes a Mortisian Soulreaper within 3+ of a unit of 2 Immortis Guard (the third model in the unit having been slain earlier in the battle).  The Soulreaper knows the spell 'Reinforce Battle-Shields' and has successfully cast it on the Immortis Guard in your previous hero phase.  During the enemy's hero phase, an enemy wizard scores a lucky arcane bolt on your Mortisian Soulreaper, causing 3 mortal wounds.  The hero does not get any armor saves against mortal wounds, so now you skip straight to allocation.  Normally the mortal wounds would just be allocated to the unit that was targeted, but the Immortis Guard's ability triggers, so you roll for each mortal wound and on a 2+ that mortal wound is allocated to the Immortis Guard unit instead.  You roll 1, 3, and 6, so one mortal wound is allocated to the Soulreaper and two are allocated to the Immortis Guard unit.  The Soulreaper is an OBR hero, so you roll the normal 6++ shrug against the mortal wound allocated to them.  You roll a 5, so they suffer one wound, and have four remaining on their profile.  The Immortis Guard are a Hekatos unit, so they also get the 6++ faction shrug against any normal or mortal wounds allocated to them.  You roll a 2 and a 5, so neither mortal wound is stopped by the faction shrug.  Because of the 'Reinforce Battle-Shields' spell, they have an additional 5++ shrug against mortal wounds that are allocated to them, so you roll again and get a 2 and a 6, nullifying one of the mortal wounds.  You don't have any shrugs left so one wound is applied to one of the Mortis Guard, leaving three remaining on that model.

And with the battalion for this example, when you roll the 1, 3 and 6 to allocate the mortal wounds, the 6 is completely discarded, and the immortis will not need to roll any shrugs at all. So it is a decent battalion rule that will heavily discourage anyone to target heroes near these guys or the morghasts, hence I believe some archai bodyguards and this battalion flying around near a Arkhan will be great and a tough nut to crack, especially in petrifex.

[GeneralZero]

24 minutes ago, Alaric83 said:

Been toying with a very aggressive monster-y list, to balance my main army (shooty dwarves). What do you guys think?

Legion: Praetorian or Petrix (TBD)

Does this look playable / fun to you?

On the plus side this is also relatively few models to paint.

The list will lack of dicipline points I think. I'd be safier to get another support hero. And for my personal taste, I'd add a fast harasment unit to grab objectives or help where needed (ex: add a rider unit in place of a guard unit). Just my 2c.

Edited October 30, 2019 by GeneralZero

[Sception]

Yeah, the immortis formation rule is good, but I'm not sure the formation overall is worth it.  6 Immortis Guard will often be overkill for bodyguard work - to say nothing of the archai who gain the same rule.  And even if you wanted to field 6, fielding them as one unit would generally be much better than two of three to take advantage of unit buffs when using them offensively.  So you're getting probably more units than you really need for character protection and fielding them in not the most efficient way,  AND paying extra points for the formation on top of that, in an army that already struggles to fit offensive elements and objective coverage and buffing/support pieces all in the same list.

Again, not bad at all, and it's probably what I'll run.  Conceptually I just like bodyguard units, and always felt that's what Archai should have been doing in the first place, and I love the way they look next to arkhan.

But Arkhan, a Soulmason, a Liege Kavalos, 2 archai, 2x3 immortis, and the formation is already, what, 1370 points?  The formation is 60 points, right?  That only leaves 630 points left in your army, and you don't even have any battleline yet.  You could fit 3x10 Mortek and a single Crawler with 40 points left over for an endless spell, but that's really lacking in bodies on the table.  Alternatively you could do 20 mortek and 2x5 kavalos, which is a little better board presence but still not great and costs you your crawler.   20 mortek + 2x10 mortec leaves 110 points left over, but I don't think that's enough to grab anything other than more & more expensive endless spells.

You could cut Arkhan back to a boneshaper or something and that'll free a couple hundred points to work with, I guess...  but the formation just feels like it's missing something aesthetically without a bigger hero to get the bigger archai bodyguard, doesn't it?

 

I don't know.  Again, it's not a bad formation, but I'm just not sure I see it being part of a solid army with all the other pieces in place at less than 2500 points.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Sception

[Rivener]

Anybody else think the Soulthief and Gothizzar need to have their wording changed? Right now they only care when a model is slain within X inches. Won’t any opponent with a brain just remove models from outside that radius in 90% of situations? 

Oh sure it’s valuable if you are fighting someone with a crazy small model count and you can miraculously get everybody you’re about to kill exactly inside that range, but that seems contrary to the purpose of the models.

[Grdaat]

7 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

I'd like to hear reasons to use the new unique characters, as being locked into praetorians to me seems so terrible and the minimal upsides (arch kavalos and Vokmortian) compared to not being able to get traits and artefacts. I think Arkhan is really cool though and will probably pick up the model finally. Nagash is just overpriced nonsense, but good for a laugh I guess, having access to an entire spell lore mostly around buffing a non excisting army because he takes all the points.

You'll use Vokmortian because he gives you Vokmortian's Retinue, a Battalion that lets you resurrect Morghasts and Stalkers, which is the only way to reliably get them back.

[Grdaat]

5 hours ago, relic456 said:

With the new FAQ (see below) I think it's now allowed.  Just need someone to confirm if the points for the battalion are listed as a Pitched Battle profile.

It's 120 points from the BoLS video.

[Sception]

to use his retinue you have to be using archai and stalkers, and not part of their other formations.  Also, limited box set formations have a history of either not being matched play legal to start, or losing their matched play legality after some time.  Either way, not sure that formation can be counted on long term.

Special characters can be fielded in other legions & just fon't gain the benefit.  As such, petrifex is still probably the best way to run them.  Even if they don't benefit, the rest of the army does.  Not that big a cost.  And honestly I expect arkhan & nagash's subfaction access will get errata'd away sooner or later, too.  After all, avoiding 2+ rerollable nagash was part of the reason mystic shield was changed to begin with.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Sception

[Nizrah]

Can you use Bludgeon on Mortek Guard?

[LordPrometheus]

8 minutes ago, Sception said:

  And honestly I expect arkhan & nagash's subfaction access will get errata'd away sooner or later, too.  After all, avoiding 2+ rerollable nagash was part of the reason mystic shield was changed to begin with.

Nagash has to justify his 880 points somehow... he should be nigh unkillable if he's half your army

[Sception]

Just now, LordPrometheus said:

Nagash has to justify his 880 points somehow... he should be nigh unkillable if he's half your army

I don't disagree, but then again I didn't think he was that terrible a problem back in the old mystic shield days, either, and that was nerfed before grimghasts and realm spells temporarily supercharged nagash lists.

Despite showing up in the tactic article, it still feels more like a mistake to me than a deliberate choice, especially with how the other special characters are so limited by comparison.

[Souleater]

Thinking of this for 1k

Crematorian 

Arkhan 360
Mortek Guard x10 130
Mortek Guard x10 130
Necropolis Stalkers x3 200
Boneshaper 140 General

(an endless spell)

Is Arkhan too much of an investment at this points level?

[Sception]

9 minutes ago, Souleater said:

Thinking of this for 1k

Crematorian 

Arkhan 360
Mortek Guard x10 130
Mortek Guard x10 130
Necropolis Stalkers x3 200
Boneshaper 140 General

(an endless spell)

Is Arkhan too much of an investment at this points level?

He's pushing the limits, given how fragile he is for those points, but I don't think he's *too* much.  I'd probably take Immortis Guard instead of the Stalkers.  Still pretty killy, if admittedly not as killy as the stalkers, and they can help protect your heroes from shooty attacks.  Or alternatively, maybe a harvester.  It just seems like such a definitive unit for Crematorians.

[El Syf]

Can someone clarify if nagash is 860 or 880? 

Anyone else think a mainly gloss black scheme would work? Sort of like Hexus from Fern Gully type vibe in my head at least

[Grdaat]

1 minute ago, Sception said:

to use his retinue you have to be using archai and stalkers, and not part of their other formations.  Also, limited box set formations have a history of either not being matched play legal to start, or losing their matched play legality after some time.  Either way, not sure that formation can be counted on ling term.

Special characters can be fielded in other legions & just fon't gain the benefit.  As such, petrifex is still probably the best way to run them.  Even if they don't benefit, the rest of the army does.  Not that big a cost.  And honestly I expect arkhan & nagash's subfaction access will get errata'd away sooner or later, too.  After all, avoiding 2+ rerollable nagash was part of the reason mystic shield was changed to begin with.

Bringing those units isn't a bad idea when you can just resurrect models though, and you might also be able to declare everyone in that Battalion Petrifex Elite except for Vokmortian. Also since they changed their minds in the FAQ and made these Battalions legal again, I doubt it'll be changed soon.

[Souleater]

@Sception

Thanks for the advice, I will give the Immortis Guard a try.

Also thought of:

Mortek Guard x20  

Boneshaper (General)

Immortis Guard

Deathriders x5

Harvester 

 

Bigger guard unit makes it harder to wipe them as a whole.  They take centre with the harvester- try to keep that in range of the Boneshaper.

 

The riders can go after objectives on the flank or come in to help out the Morteks

Guard stick with the Boneshaper as he'll be a big target.

 

[Scurvydog]

So far none of the battalions from any dual boxes, like the battalions from looncurse, have been usable in matched play, so I do not expect the one from feast of bones to be either unfortunately. Maybe you can get away with it until the next GHB.

As for other battalions I expect I will build towards the morteks or kavalos ones, as the rest take some specific investments and I like to generalize a bit with my army purchases to begin with.

2 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

The list will lack of dicipline points I think. I'd be safier to get another support hero. And for my personal taste, I'd add a fast harasment unit to grab objectives or help where needed (ex: add a rider unit in place of a guard unit). Just my 2c.

He will more need dispells. Katakros as the general is already 1+3 and a battalion gives 1. He has 7 units in total wich on 6 rolls should also give at least 1 per turn average, so 5-7 per turn would be quite normal and perfectly fine. It is a bit niche but probably fun.

[MetaMaxy]

So is Nagash just useless now? I really hope not (spent 33 hours on my model) but all the list seem really lack luster so far

[Sception]

38 minutes ago, MetaMaxy said:

So is Nagash just useless now? I really hope not (spent 33 hours on my model) but all the list seem really lack luster so far

I don't think so.  The spell lore is nice to him, especially the shrug + teleport spell.  Multicast arcane bolt lets him bully small heroes, his unbind bonus now extending to dispels lets him drop & recast endless spells with ease, and mortek guard are a solid unit even with only minimal support that, while not cheap, are cheap enough to run a fair few of.  880 is a lot, but if they *don't* faq away his ability to benefit from subfaction rules he'll be right tough with 2+ rerollable armor from petrifex, protection of nagash, & self invocation thanks to warscroll changes.

He's maybe not top tier like he was in the early days of 2e, but he'll see some use and will catch more than a few opponents with their pants down.  Unless I'm adding points wrong, nagash, 3x20 morteks, & one extra support caster of choice will fit in 2k, with enough points spare for your choice of 1 liege kavalos, 1 harvester, 1 crawler, 3 immortis, 3 stalkers, or maybe 2 morghasts depending on support caster choice.  Or get two support casters with points left over for an endless spell or two.

 

Petrifex
Nagash
Soulmason
3x20 Mortek Guard
Crawler

or

Petrifex
Nagash
Soulmason
Bonesculpter
3x20 Mortek Guard
Spellportals

Both look runnable to me, assuming I'm not off on the points.  I'm working from pretty blurry pics.

 

You could also switch to 1x40, 2x10 morteks.  Concentrates your board presence in one unit, but shaves points for another endless spell.

 

Granted I'm no authority on competitive play in AoS.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Sception

[Inquisitorsz]

3 hours ago, Rivener said:

Anybody else think the Soulthief and Gothizzar need to have their wording changed? Right now they only care when a model is slain within X inches. Won’t any opponent with a brain just remove models from outside that radius in 90% of situations? 

Oh sure it’s valuable if you are fighting someone with a crazy small model count and you can miraculously get everybody you’re about to kill exactly inside that range, but that seems contrary to the purpose of the models.

Also don't forget that it's any model... not just opponent's models. If you remove your own mortek guard within 3" you have a 4+ chance to bring them straight back. 

I think the ability is much less about your opponent's models and more about making a mortek guard unit 50% harder to kill. 
 

[Rivener]

25 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Also don't forget that it's any model... not just opponent's models. If you remove your own mortek guard within 3" you have a 4+ chance to bring them straight back. 

I think the ability is much less about your opponent's models and more about making a mortek guard unit 50% harder to kill. 
 

But then what’s the purpose of the soul thief? It doesn’t help when your own guys die, and it causes your caster to be at -1 to cast.