AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[Neck-Romantic]

*reads historical accuracy rant.. *

I just hate they they hold it with 2 hands on the same side, man

[Panzer]

38 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

*reads historical accuracy rant.. *

I just hate they they hold it with 2 hands on the same side, man

I'm with you on that and I'm definitely going to change that regardless of how much work it might be. I also hope to find some proper skulls in the right size to replace their heads with lol

[AHexInScarletRed]

48 minutes ago, Panzer said:

I'm with you on that and I'm definitely going to change that regardless of how much work it might be. I also hope to find some proper skulls in the right size to replace their heads with lol

I'll paint them skeleton faces on top of their heads, because somewhere down the road, Nagash thought: "These just don't look scary enough." Goes well enough with his personality and gives great options

[Sleboda]

3 hours ago, sandlemad said:

It's prescriptivism vs descriptivism. As always when arguing about historical material culture (as in the 'definition' of a halberd is historical, not the, uh, giant bone dudes), prescriptivism is ahistorical bean-counting that spends more time on its own typologies/terminologies (which would be uttery alien to anyone who ever used a pole weapon) and fitting things into neat academic classes than actually thinking about the meaning of the object of study.

It's a halberd.

Long ago I discussed the "realism" of the old Warhammer cannon rules. Historical fans had their various points, to which I listened. I then suggested that replace the word cannon with bleeorg. 

Bleeorgs have rules about measuring distance, creating a bouncing path of their destructiveness. Roll damage. Remove models.

Who cares that GW called it a cannon? It's nothing more than a set of rules assigned to game piece so that we can know what that model does compared to a different model.

So now we have  models with "halberds" that may or may not match some version of an old Earth real weapon.

Who cares? It's a bleearbo. It has a statline associated with a model.  The ones with a bleearbo are different from the ones with a smoogbo. 

It's a label for a model. That's all.

[Evil Bob]

1 hour ago, AHexInScarletRed said:

I'll paint them skeleton faces on top of their heads, because somewhere down the road, Nagash thought: "These just don't look scary enough." Goes well enough with his personality and gives great options

Well played.  You almost got me to put mine in clown make-up.  Even my “lows” have limits.

[JackStreicher]

Tripplepost, please delete

Edited September 10, 2019 by JackStreicher

[JackStreicher]

5 hours ago, sandlemad said:

It's prescriptivism vs descriptivism. As always when arguing about historical material culture (as in the 'definition' of a halberd is historical, not the, uh, giant bone dudes), prescriptivism is ahistorical bean-counting that spends more time on its own typologies/terminologies (which would be uttery alien to anyone who ever used a pole weapon) and fitting things into neat academic classes than actually thinking about the meaning of the object of study.

It's a halberd.

So a circle is a triangle. Who needs descriptivism 🤷🏼‍♂️, Moons are planets and two-Blades straight swords are Sabres. A bow is a crossbow, a short bow is a longbow. a recurve bow is a ballista, a sickle is a scythe, or a kopesh (all three have curved blades, right?) and a dwarf is an elf, a spear is a staff.

This is not about historical accuracy, this is about using the wrong description for an object. 

 

@XReN every axe has a pole too, it‘s still no polearm. Having a pole does not make a weapon a polearm - it‘s about reach/range and length.polearms are meant to increase your ACTIVE RANGE, that axe-thing with Spikes does not. (The Morghast Polearm can be classified as a halberd)

 

this is a spiked axe. you, Sir, would argue it is a Halberd, because GW called it that. 🤷🏼‍♂️

A halberd for the bone dudes would need to be as tall as they are. 

That‘s an axe - though GW wishes it would be a halberd because a halberd would not look as silly as that warped axe. 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by JackStreicher
Added an image

[Sleboda]

For the record, @JackStreicher, I also believe words have meaning. For sure.

If you tell me to drive in a circle when the road is a straight line, that's going to cause an issue.

My point is that in a game, where everything is simply a series of definitions that apply within the game, it doesn't matter which words are assigned to a lore item.

Yes, if the rule itself says to roll two dice, the number and the object matter. On the other hand, if the lore/description says that the Scarfkarg is equipped with a Vorpan, it is essentially and functionally no different from saying the Skeleton is armed with a halberd or the Morghast is armed with a sword.

[Panzer]

20 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

So a circle is a triangle. Who needs descriptivism 🤷🏼‍♂️, Moons are planets and two-Blades straight swords are Sabres. A bow is a crossbow, a short ow is a longbow. a recurve bow is a stick.

This is not about historical accuracy, this is using the wrong description for an object. 

 

A halberd for the bone dudes would need to be as tall as they are. 

That‘s an axe - though GW wishes it would be a halberd because a halberd would not look as silly as that warped axe. 

 

Okay okay so first of all, there was no need to post it three times.

Then, nowhere it says a Halberd has to be as tall as the one who's wielding it. Sources usually give us a length 1.5-1.8 meters (which is btw. even shorter than many people are). Of course with some exceptions as always.
An axe, as you claim it is, is about the length of the arm for battle purposes. The shaft alone of here is longer than their arms.

Last but not least, the Halberds (yes they are) the four-armed guys are wielding ARE about as tall as they are (the line is copy pasted and just moved from the Halberd to the body. It's the exact same length):

 

And as I've already said before, the halberd doesn't even have to have the same proportional length for these guys. As long as they can fight opponents without the opponents being able to reach them it's doing its job as halberd.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Panzer

[JackStreicher]

@Panzer that is entirely wrong, read my posts from above again I edited it.

also you are not taking into account the scale and the stilisation of the Miniatures, which I do since it is my job. (Look at Halberds and their size across the entire GW range).

This is too much Dunning-Krueger for one day, think what you will. I don‘t care, you won‘t change the facts though.

 

@Sleboda the issue is that people who don‘t know what a halberd is learn that a halberd is an axe (children, people who aren‘t in touch with history etc). 

Edited September 10, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Panzer]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

@Panzer that is entirely wrong, read my posts from above again I edited it.

also you are not taking into account the scale and the stilisation of the Miniatures, which I do since it is my job. (Look at Halberds and their size across the entire GW range).

This is too much Dunning-Krueger Dir one day, think what you will. I don‘t care.

I don't know what your job is, but I can tell that you are clearly wrong in this case. And you obviously do care. ^^

[Sleboda]

13 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

@Panzer

@Sleboda the issue is that people who don‘t know what a halberd is learn that a halberd is an axe (children, people who aren‘t in touch with history etc). 

🤷‍♂️ I suppose I'm just not bothered if children playing with toys don't learn the right terms for medieval bits of metal that were stuck on sticks of one length compared to medieval bits of metal that were stuck on sticks of a different length, each used to kill a guy in a disagreement.

Are we really concerned about using Warhammer to teach children real history?

 

@panzer Not sure how to remove you from the quote above. Sorry.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Sleboda

[Overread]

Honestly there's so much inaccurate fact out there in games that its basically a null argument. Most people still think that your regular mangonel on wheels can knock down castle walls when, in reality, they'd only tap on the wall and you'd have to break out a trebuchet or something of similar power, to actually penetrate a proper castle wall. 

I also hold the view that the designers know very well the halberd is too short for reality, but that they've done it that way because of the practicalities of making a model toy for the tabletop. It's the same reason many spears and polearms are supershort and swords are super thick etc... They are adaptations to the practicalities of the tabletop. Of course in the same breath someone from GW then goes and makes the new Slaanesh hero with the massive three ended whip of plastic - so clearly not everyone holds the same views of practical model making

Personally I think that the world of fantasy is so far removed that its ok to get away with mistakes now and then. Though I'm often sad that finding good quality accurate resources - esp in book form - which are at an intermediate level (not super basic but not super dry either) are a hard thing to find in general. Though I think now you're well into the realms of talking about real history and weapons where there's often great variation in types over nations and through time. 

 

That said I'd say this is worth its own discussion and thread. Instead of fighting about what things are or are not or what they might or might not be; I'd instead start up a thread showing people educational resources and educating them. Instead of saying "hey that's silly and wrong." say "hey that's a cool model, here's where you can learn all about real halberds - or write it out - a few websites a youtube a book or two on medieval weapons etc.... Ergo instead of fighting go with the flow and encourage. 

[Neck-Romantic]

Ok. This is done with. Lets move on to discussing spooky undead bone thieves and can the pages-long existential ranting please 🙄

[Gaz Taylor]

27 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Ok. This is done with. Lets move on to discussing spooky undead bone thieves and can the pages-long existential ranting please 🙄

100% this please. Spooky dead things please. 👍

[KK9T]

On 9/8/2019 at 2:33 PM, Gdead909 said:

Do you think it’s fueled by the tomb king players that wanted new tomb king stuff?

Yeah

[Neffelo]

I really like the Halberd variation, but I wonder if it is going to be worth it over taking the sword variation.

I really want to get a look at some of the rules!

 

[Neinball]

I wonder what the differences will be between the Stalkers and the Guard. I imagine the guard will give up some offensive power for whatever effect our shields will have (please don’t be +1 save vs rend -!). The Guard will likely have some form of wound intercept as they’re described as protecting characters.

I also wonder what the difference between the quad-wielding Stalkers and the dual two handers will be. It doesn't appear to be a unit champion since it likes the champion markings on the chest. Could it be a 1 per 3 option or could we field a whole unit of just the two handers?

[Neck-Romantic]

At first I really wanted more samurai inspired heads... but for some reason the Guard heads are putting me off a bit... hope they have unadorned versions too

[Neffelo]

1 hour ago, Neinball said:

I wonder what the differences will be between the Stalkers and the Guard. I imagine the guard will give up some offensive power for whatever effect our shields will have (please don’t be +1 save vs rend -!). The Guard will likely have some form of wound intercept as they’re described as protecting characters.

I also wonder what the difference between the quad-wielding Stalkers and the dual two handers will be. It doesn't appear to be a unit champion since it likes the champion markings on the chest. Could it be a 1 per 3 option or could we field a whole unit of just the two handers?

I am guessing that the Halberd version will have a longer reach, since they have halberds. I am hoping the shields also do more than just something static. It would be nice to have something static+ maybe adding a bonus to LoS or something? That would be cool.

I am curious if the blender version will have the two armed option for the whole squad as well. I would like that, as more options are always welcome! 

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Lets move on to discussing spooky undead bone thieves

Works fer me!

So,

I take umbrage with you calling them thieves. These are the righteous collectors of the tithes owed to the God of Death/Undeath.

Sigmar is the thief.

 

(That said, I have a Steelers jersey and book bag with "Sigmar" on each as a name-identifier, so yeah, loves me some Sigmar.)

[Panzer]

So I was a bit bored at work and decided to use my rather poor photoshop skills to do a mockup of what I'm probably ending up doing once I get my hands on the models.

Basically this

is going to turn into this

 

No spinous process all over the body, no tail, no weird faces and no silly weapon holding with two arms on the same side.

[Neck-Romantic]

Much better tbh.. tho where to find a skull the proper size?

[Panzer]

4 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Much better tbh.. tho where to find a skull the proper size?

That's the main question. ^^

[Neck-Romantic]

Thats the Ossiarch's driving question too I suppose..