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King Taloren

Is there a difference between a Battleshock Test and a Hit, Wound, Save roll?

Question

I figure this might  get some more notice as part of the topic with the regular rules guys. (Looking at you guys @EMMachine, @Isotop,)

Majority of the discussion can be found here:

https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/23569-spite-revenants-unbridled-malice-any-good/

So the TLDR:

The Designer Commentary and Core Rules state that all re-rolls are applied before modifiers

Quote

 

Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied?
A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied,
so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll. Note that, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that modifiers may have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4+ and you have a +1 modifier, you probably don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied!


 

Is a battleshock ability that forces a re roll of the battleshock test part of this reroll before modifiers ruling or is is a separate entity?

 

Quote

 

MAKING ATTACKS

Attacks are resolved one at a time using the following attack sequence. In some cases, you can resolve all of the attacks made by the same type of weapon at the same time (see Multiple Attacks, below).

1. Hit Roll: Roll a dice. If the roll equals or beats the attacking weapon’s To Hit characteristic, then it scores a hit and you must make a wound roll. If not, the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. A hit roll of 1 before modification always fails to hit the target, and a hit roll of 6 before modification always hits the target.

2. Wound Roll: Roll a dice. If the roll equals or beats the attacking weapon’s To Wound characteristic, then it is successful and the opposing player must make a save roll. If not, then the attack fails and the attack sequence ends. A wound roll of 1 before modification always fails, and a wound roll of 6 before modification is always successful.

3. Save Roll: The opposing player rolls a dice, modifying the roll by the attacking weapon’s Rend characteristic. For example, if a weapon has a -1 Rend characteristic, then 1 is subtracted from the save roll. If the result equals or beats the Save characteristic of the models in the target unit, the save succeeds and the attack sequence ends without causing any damage. If not, the save fails and the attack is successful, and you must determine damage on the target unit. A save roll of 1 before modification always fails.

4. Determine Damage: Each successful attack inflicts damage on the target unit equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapon making the attack. Most weapons have a Damage characteristic of 1, but some have a Damage characteristic of 2 or more.

BATTLE SHOCK PHASE:

In the battleshock phase, both players must take battleshock tests for units from their army that have had models slain during the turn. The player whose turn it is tests first. You must make a battleshock roll for each unit that has to take a battleshock test. To make a battleshock roll, roll a dice. Add the number of models from the unit that have been slain this turn to the dice roll, and add 1 to the unit’s Bravery characteristic for every 10 models that are in the unit when the test is taken. If the modified battleshock roll is greater than the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, the battleshock test has been failed. If the test is failed, for each point by which the modified roll exceeds the unit’s modified Bravery characteristic, one model in that unit must flee. You decide which of the models from your units flee – remove them from play and count them as having been slain.

 

The Battleshock test does explicitly state that the result of a failure and sucess hinges on the modified totals.

Is re-rolling a battlesock test different from re-rolling a hit, wound or save roll?

Edited by King Taloren

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It's not really different rulewise. You reroll before using modifiers. 

The main difference is, if I remember correctly, is that there is no rule in case of Battleshocktests, that let's you re-roll successful or failed battleshocktests. Only re-roll battleshocktests or re-roll Tests of 1 or 6

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Spite Revenants have the ability that forces any successful battleshock tests to be rerolled.

 

The question is do you count the reroll of the battleshock test like a normal reroll and do it before the modified result? (Which the core rules state modified result is the only way to determine if it is a successful or failed battleshock test) 

Or do you do it after the modified result because you cannot determine the success or failure accurately without adding the slain models?

Because at this point unmodified vs 80% of the units in the game the ability is completely worthless because all rolls will be successful before modifiers.

Edited by King Taloren

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19 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Spite Revenants have the ability that forces any successful battleshock tests to be rerolled.

 

The question is do you count the reroll of the battleshock test like a normal reroll and do it before the modified result? (Which the core rules state modified result is the only way to determine if it is a successful or failed battleshock test) 

Or do you do it after the modified result because you cannot determine the success or failure accurately without adding the slain models?

Because at this point unmodified vs 80% of the units in the game the ability is completely worthless because all rolls will be successful before modifiers.

In those cases there is no difference to other re-rolls.

But only modifications on the diceroll itself are after re-rolls (mainly the count of dead models). Many abilities don't raise the dice role of battleshocktests, instead they are lowering the Bravery Characteristic, so you can fail the test even without adding the dead models. The Characteristic lowering happens before even rolling the dice so this happens before the re-roll.

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Though the one issue is that the rules for  battleshock test say that a success or failure is determined by the modified result. All other rolls do not make such claims about modifiers at all.

They even specifically call out battleshock roll and battleshock test separately which seems to be making a clear distinction between the two imo.

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