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PJetski

Inspiring Presence - Bad for the game?

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22 hours ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

I think Inspiring Presence should let a unit use the Hero's Bravery characteristic. Then a Hero's Bravery actually matters for once.

I'm amazed no one has yet suggested what seems an obvious solution - combine with this changing the roll to a 1.

This means that units with autopass or special abilities on a natural 1 get a chance at this without using a CP. If this fails, you can change the roll to a 1 and boost bravery using 1 CP. This could save you up to 10 models (assuming a roll of a 6 and bravery 5 to bravery 10).

Maybe even allow use of Hero's *unmodified* bravery? Or would that be too powerful?

Edited by DionTheWanderer

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I play pure ghosts and hate inspiring presence and bravery. I have bravery 10 across the board but super squishy heroes compared to every other faction, so having a guaranteed chance to use inspiring presence rarely ever happens, as most good players will always target the squishy heroes first to prevent me being able to use it. And outside of penumbral engine, kurdoss and aeatherquartz brooch (all of which are super temperamental anyway), ghosts have no way of getting the extra CP required to effectively be using IP on a regular basis throughout the game . And as the army has little to no healing and absolutely zero unit resurrection, it means that I can't run hordes as a ghost player because they are so susceptible to running from battleshock as soon as they start to lose even a few models, and once they are gone, they are gone.

I have had so many games where my big blobs of 40 rasps or 30 grims get hit by sheer weight of dice, and if half the unit dies (which is very easy to do in the current meta, especially as big blobs of ghosts won't get the wholly within 12" death saves or the heroes who grant them the 6+ are already dead), so the rest will just autorun from battleshock. And when you play an opponent that can auto pass their battleshock every single player turn due to a terrain piece or by having a shed ton of CP to use, it definitely creates a feeling of butt hurt and jelly belly. And I know that a 4+ or 5+ ethereal save is good, but having a 50/50 chance or 33/66 chance of making your saves against 50-60 attacks is never going to end well 😂.

But I have an issue with bravery in general. My army is meant to cause lots of bravery debuffs and has multiple attacks, abilities and artefacts that rely on bravery bombing to be effective, but the most you can get is the army wide -1. GW sort of made a bandaid with LoG but it's not a proper nighthaunt army, it's like the inbred cousin of NH and LoN, it's like GW admitting that they messed up the NH book and have gone "here you go, use this shiny new thing and don't look at the crippled battletome in the corner struggling to breathe as it's on it's last legs". The NH book is so bad for bravery, there is even a command trait for a ghost general called - Terrifying Entity - it relies on your 5 or 6 wound general surviving the previous turn of combat as it only affects units within 3" in your hero phase, so already not off to a great start as the likelihood of a 5-6 wound model surviving combat in the current meta is so slim, but you then have to roll a single dice, not two dice, a single dice, and you have to equal or beat the bravery of the unit(s) within 3" to make them forcibly retreat. As the average bravery in the game is 6, it's literally the worst command trait in the game. Ghosts in the fluff are the most prominent cause of terror and fear, yet in the game they are one of the most susceptible armies to the bravery mechanic, and they even have bravery 10 FFS. I honestly believe that you could make the entire army immune to battleshock and they would still struggle to keep up with the current meta, they would be so much better and they could go back to being a horde army rather than MSU and it would be thematic and fluffy as well, but that will never happen.

The GHB did add some extra generic command abilities to the game, great, but let's be honest, IP is still the best by a long way. The re-rolls to hit are something that most units already have in the game and has only been added as a patch by GW to let the older and out of date factions have a slim chance of keeping up in the current meta, they offer little or not help to any of the newer books, as they already have a shed ton of natural re-roll abilities anyway.

TL:DR - I play ghosts and they have high bravery but suck serious plums with dealing with battleshock immunity in the current meta, both in being able to regularly use it and having to overcome it being regularly used by opponents. And they suck plums in general with dealing with bravery in the game.

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I play Daughters of Khaine. What is Inspiring Presence? My ladies are just high on vodka shots the entire game. 🤣

But seriously, you need IP to level the playing field against armies that have abilities which completely ignore Battleshock.

Edited by InSaint
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6 hours ago, 18121812 said:

You don't like guys running away. This is literally a thread about how many people think Inspiring Presence (and other abilities) result in too few models are running away, so that's obviously not a universal opinion.

I definitely think psychology/moral should be part of the game, and the ease with which it can be ignored by many factions is a little lame. However, the battle shock mechanic itself is flawed, and there are some hammer units that can throw out insane damage that need Inspiring Presence as a bit of a counterbalance. Dropping Inspiring Presence would break the game. 

Much like how the double turn has remained despite people not liking it, GW must have some information stored away somewhere from polls that indicate that morale is a game killer for a lot of people enough to essentially squash it in both of their games but pay homage to it by including it for whatever reason.

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4 hours ago, Jamopower said:

I wouldn't say that. For example Warlord games are doing well with very traditional wargames (over 26 000 likes on their facebook page). The field is very varied at the moment. Warhammer of both varieties is of course the Giant, but in it's feet there are more mice than ever. It might just be hard to see as the scenes are different.

I was recently organizing the largest gaming convention in Finland and when it used to be so back in the day, that there were 150 or so players playing in the Warhammer tournament (with FB and 40k alternating each year). We now have the same amount of players in tournaments, but there are 12+ different games.

Maybe on paper, but I know in my area and the areas around my area, nobody really plays anything other than 40k for the most part, and AOS is the second step cousin.  Warlord games may have 26,000 likes on their facebook page, but the stores are all empty of Warlord games.  

That might just be a USA vs Finland (or Europe) thing though.  In the USA there are really no other games other than sometimes XWing that show up in public outside of your big cons.

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33 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Much like how the double turn has remained despite people not liking it, GW must have some information stored away somewhere from polls that indicate that morale is a game killer for a lot of people enough to essentially squash it in both of their games but pay homage to it by including it for whatever reason.

I think the main issue is that abilities dependent on enemies failing battleshock are left behind by GW setting it on the back foot. Nighthaunt's ability to affect battleshock could be replaced with just creating mortal wounds, or forcing units to move away, which fits the theme of scaring people literally to death or send them running.

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35 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Maybe on paper, but I know in my area and the areas around my area, nobody really plays anything other than 40k for the most part, and AOS is the second step cousin.  Warlord games may have 26,000 likes on their facebook page, but the stores are all empty of Warlord games.  

That might just be a USA vs Finland (or Europe) thing though.  In the USA there are really no other games other than sometimes XWing that show up in public outside of your big cons.

 

That's why I said that the other games are not so visible as the scenes are so different. People tend to play historical games at home or clubs and the players are spread so thinly that the brick and mortar stores don't have possibility to stock the models. Of course Games Workshop is so huge compared to anything else in this field, that the player amounts are totally different scales. But that doesn't mean that they don't exist or wouldn't be reasonably popular. It's also seen in how GW has  restructured their business few years ago. For example Necromunda and Kill team/Warcry are ways to lure the skirmish players from Infinity, WHU an option for Guildball/X-wing players, Age of Sigmar has a Warmachine feel etc. And I would say that Lord of the Rings is a way to lure "traditional wargame" players. At least in our club, the same people who like to play Saga and the different Warlord games, also tend to play Middle-Earth.

I do also believe that there is a difference in culture between Europe and US. 

 

But anyways, this is bit of a derailing from the original topic. Sorry about that.

Edited by Jamopower
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1 hour ago, Dead Scribe said:

Much like how the double turn has remained despite people not liking it, GW must have some information stored away somewhere from polls that indicate that morale is a game killer for a lot of people enough to essentially squash it in both of their games but pay homage to it by including it for whatever reason.

Some people don't like double turn. Others like.    

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Right.  Just like some people like models running away without fighting, and others do not.   Have to assume that enough people like double turn for whatever reason that GW won't change it (or hasn't yet) and enough people don't like models running away without fighting, so GW keeps morale as a mainly useless section of the game.

Edited by Dead Scribe

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On 8/22/2019 at 12:43 AM, zilberfrid said:

Deletion due to battleshock simply feels awful. Now a unit running off and needing a hero to chase after them sounds a lot better.

The list I build is largely immune to battleshock, because the mechanic as ruled in AoS is awful.

You should try Warhammer Battle then ;)

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1 hour ago, Maturin said:

You should try Warhammer Battle then ;)

Warhammer Fantasy Battle is dead. With Inspiring Presence, Battleshock is managable within the current rules. I'm not the one wanting to change the current game, in this case by asking a  nerf to Inspiring Presence.

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Let's see what you can do for a CP:

-fight/move/shoot second time

-give your whole army rerolls/pile in 6"/battleshock immunity/mortal wounds on 6s/etc.

-bring back a full unit

-summon a 100-200pt unit

No, I don't think ignoring battleshock is particularly strong use of a CP compared to that. If your army is using CPs to save your big bricks from crumbling then it doesn't do any of those things, I would rather do them.

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3 hours ago, Smooth criminal said:

Let's see what you can do for a CP:

-fight/move/shoot second time

-give your whole army rerolls/pile in 6"/battleshock immunity/mortal wounds on 6s/etc.

-bring back a full unit

-summon a 100-200pt unit

No, I don't think ignoring battleshock is particularly strong use of a CP compared to that. If your army is using CPs to save your big bricks from crumbling then it doesn't do any of those things, I would rather do them.

Which army can do all of these things and also want to use command points for IP?

There is more to this discussion than just the value of a command points.

Edited by PJetski

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I think over the course of the thread, the discussion has moved beyond just Inspiring Presence in isolation, and more toward battleshock immunity in general, and how easy it is for some armies to completely ignore battleshock in almost any context.

I think there is meat to them bones, that battleshock in general is really either not working as advertised, or not working as intended, or could be made to work better, or something.  As it stands, there are times where it feels like it is working fine, and there are times where it does not.

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15 hours ago, Aelven supremacy said:

To reiterate others’ points,my main concern is Skaven and Gitz’  abilities to ignore battleshock (primarily Skaven’s ability to do so).    These are not just horde armies but horde armies that are characterised in lore (and always have been) as quick-to-flee  factions.  We are now in a place where Skaven players can easily make a significant proportion completely immune to this, going against the lore and completely removing the main drawback of hordes.   This needs to be fixed.   Battleshock auras are worse offenders than IP so the primary fix should be removing them (screaming bell shouldn’t let rats ignore battleshock)

Although I do agree with you on how the playstyle feels... the lore describes them as charging into guns when their clawlords are nearby, climbing over their own dead because they want to prove themselves to the horned rat when a screaming bell is close by and genera not caring about deaths until the tides turn on them. From that point of view the rules work. Until you take out the leaders they are crazy brave, after that they flee to a stiff breeze. 

So yes on game wise it’s to easy to prevent the factions drawback. No on it’s not fitting with the lore. At least the way I look st it. 

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It comes down to abilities buffing bravery (IP included) being significantly more powerful than abilities which debuff it. In a game that centers on removing enemy models, this is crucial. You can't have a fight between two walls. There's no comparable ability which turns all save rolls into a six, or offers immunity to mortal wounds or spells. The closest thing I can think of is ethereal providing rend immunity, and even that has a downside associated with it as well. 

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16 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Warhammer Fantasy Battle is dead.

Dead doesn't mean unplayable 😜.

nor does not supported anymore mean a dead gamesystem.

if it is still being played, it technically isn't fully dead yet.

Edited by Skreech Verminking
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17 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Warhammer Fantasy Battle is dead. With Inspiring Presence, Battleshock is managable within the current rules. I'm not the one wanting to change the current game, in this case by asking a  nerf to Inspiring Presence.

Calm down Gouda eater or I'll Blitzkrieg all of your cheese and beautiful weemen!

As Verminking said, you can still play Battle, I still do sometimes. If I said so, it's because you told us you just started AOS, and I figured you never played Battle.
And guess what ?

"On 8/22/2019 at 12:43 AM, zilberfrid said:

Deletion due to battleshock simply feels awful. Now a unit running off and needing a hero to chase after them sounds a lot better." 
 

That's a bit what battle is about, if your unit runs away, you have a roll to make with your unit to rally them, and if it fails and you're in range of you're great banner, you can try again.

My post was a friendly advice. You SHOULD try BAttle. It's a great game!

Ps : Now, listen to me kiddo, I'm a former seal, I use to weight around half a ton, I can still eat all of your cheese and kidnapp your weemen! The ball is in your side (That's a joke on the "navy seal" internet meme).

Edited by Maturin

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I got a question rule wise, is there a way I can use Inspiring Presence not in my turn ?
For exemple, enemy charges me, kills a lot of my models, then we get to bravery tests, and I then use IP ?

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18 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Calm down Gouda eater or I'll Blitzkrieg all of your cheese and beautiful weemen!

As Verminking said, you can still play Battle, I still do sometimes. If I said so, it's because you told us you

"On 8/22/2019 at 12:43 AM, zilberfrid said:

Deletion due to battleshock simply feels awful. Now a unit running off and needing a hero to chase after them sounds a lot better." 
 

That's a bit what battle is about, if your unit runs away, you have a roll to make with your unit to rally them, and if it fails and you're in range of you're great banner, you can try again.

My post was a friendly advice. You SHOULD try BAttle. It's a great game!

Ps : Now, listen to me kiddo, I'm a former seal, I use to weight around half a ton, I can still eat all of your cheese and kidnapp your weemen! The ball is in your side (That's a joke on the "navy seal" internet meme).

Bah, we'll just destoy our dykes again and drown! Wait, what were we trying to achieve again?

I am sorry I misread your advice. Sometimes when people comment on something I don't like, I am told to go back to Fantasy Battle, a system which I never played. It actually is an option for Freeguild. Maybe I should just build up 2000 points on squares (mostly a matter of not converting them to rounds) them and 2000 points on rounds.

AoS is played in my area, fantasy Battle seems not to be played.

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11 minutes ago, Maturin said:

I got a question rule wise, is there a way I can use Inspiring Presence not in my turn ?
For exemple, enemy charges me, kills a lot of my models, then we get to bravery tests, and I then use IP ?

The wording simply suggests the battleshock phase, not differentiating from which battleshock phase.

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9 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Bah, we'll just destoy our dykes again and drown! Wait, what were we trying to achieve again?

I am sorry I misread your advice. Sometimes when people comment on something I don't like, I am told to go back to Fantasy Battle, a system which I never played. It actually is an option for Freeguild. Maybe I should just build up 2000 points on squares (mostly a matter of not converting them to rounds) them and 2000 points on rounds.

AoS is played in my area, fantasy Battle seems not to be played.

Look if you really want to play the warhammer fantasy edition, I would suggest to you to maybe buy those square movement trays, were round based models can be fit on, they were soled back than for a few daemonic units back than and should be still available in someway.

it is easier them removing your roundbased models and putting them on square bases, while you’ll be cursing your live when aos becomes a game where you’ll like the system again. 

Edited by Skreech Verminking

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1 minute ago, zilberfrid said:

I am sorry I misread your advice.

No problem l'ami molette (french bad play on words on ami 'friend' and Mimolette, a french imitation of Edam dating from when Colbert forbade to import dutch cheeses

 

10 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

Maybe I should just build up 2000 points on squares (mostly a matter of not converting them to rounds) them and 2000 points on rounds

Or you could just put some blutack, patafix between your ound and square bases or even look out for plastic3D made special round bases that can receive the squared ones! That way you could just switch over easily.
 

13 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

AoS is played in my area, fantasy Battle seems not to be played.

Do not despair! Look out in specialized dtuch forums, you might have some older players who'd like to give it a go!
And who knows, I might go to the Netherlands someday to visit, I could take my minis with me :D

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37 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

The wording simply suggests the battleshock phase, not differentiating from which battleshock phase.

Ah I see, thanks.

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