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T10

Rerolling failed hit rolls and modifiers

Question

A Crimson Murderman, as we know, attacks 6 times with his pair of cutting swords, hitting on a 4+. He has an ability that reads:

Quote

A Crimson Murderman with a pair of cutting swords re-roll failed hit rolls.

So we make our rolls to hit: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6.

Under normal circumstances he re-rolls the 1, 2 and 3.

If he is subject to a -1 penalty to his hit rolls, his series of rolls is modified to 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. One would assume that his ability would allow him to re-roll the result of 0, 1, 2 and 3, but here there seems to be some controversy:

"You can't re-roll that dice that reads 4, because before modifiers that counts as a hit since you need a 4+ to hit, and you can only re-roll failed hit rolls! And after modifiers it counts as 3, which is a failed hit roll. Since re-rolls happen before modifiers the opportunity to re-roll has passed, so you can't re-roll."

Why is it acceptable to "look ahead" at the required to To Hit score to decide if it's a hit or fail, but skip taking into account the modifiers that are going to determine if it's a hit or a fail?

This seems a bit weird. It shouldn't even be necessary since this is done to achieve the procedural point of adhering to the re-rolls-then-modifiers sequence in the core rules, which is the only opportunity when re-rolls are available.

However, according  to the Warscrolls rules for Abilities...

Quote

... Abilities take precedence over the core rules.

Why is it so  important to preserve the core rule that "re-rolls happen before modifiers to the roll (if any) are applied", but we are happy to let an ability break the restriction that you cannot run and charge in the same turn?

I submit that the proper application of this ability is as follows:

  1. Roll to hit. The Crimson Murderman rolls a 4.
  2. Apply re-rolls. At this point, the Crimson Murderman is not entitled to any re-rolls since his rolls have not been compared to his To Hit characteristic and are not yet determined as hits or failed.
  3. Apply modifiers. The hit roll is modified by -1 to  3.
  4. Compare hit roll to To Hit characteristic. It is a failure.
  5. Apply the Crimson Murderman's ability to re-roll failed hit rolls. He rolls the dice again. Since this is still a roll to hit, the modifiers are applied to the new roll. The re-roll results in a 4, modified by -1 to 3, and is compared to the To Hit characteristic and determined to be a fail.

Note that the dice is still only re-rolled once.

-T10

Edited by T10

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13 answers to this question

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Because you're having 2 different arguments.

You may not like that rerolls happen before modifiers but those are the rules.

As for why it's important to preserve the core rules in one circumstance but not another it's because one of them explicitly counters the core rules (run and charge) and one of them fits nicely within it, that the crimson murder man can reroll failed hits is entirely within the scope of the core rules. If the warscroll said "can reroll failed hits (apply reroll after modifiers)"  then it would, quite rightly, apply in the way you describe and alter the core rules for that unit. But it doesn't say that so really there's no issues. Rerolls before modifiers.

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14 minutes ago, T10 said:

@Kramer

When an Ability states "Re-roll failed hit rolls", I want to re-roll failed hit rolls. 

I don't want a big lecture on how this 4 is not eligible for a re-roll because of yada-yada-yada. If it's a failed hit roll, I re-roll it. Otherwise it's a hit.

-T10

When the ability states 're-roll failed hit rolls' I roll my dice, re-roll all fails. Then I ask my opponent and myself what the modifiers are. If it's a fail, I re-rolled. 

But i'll back out of the discussion because i'm not trying to give you a 'big lecture'. I was asking you what you were trying to achieve and you consciously ignored all that, to instead go on the offensive how the rules are wrong and should be done your way. That's sadly not in our power to change even if we would agree.

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25 minutes ago, T10 said:

@Kramer

When an Ability states "Re-roll failed hit rolls", I want to re-roll failed hit rolls. 

I don't want a big lecture on how this 4 is not eligible for a re-roll because of yada-yada-yada. If it's a failed hit roll, I re-roll it. Otherwise it's a hit.

-T10

So basically You are saying.

”I want to interpret the rules as I wish and I don’t care if there is precedence and the fact the rules say and have been clarified by the designers in other material to say the things I disagree with.” 

I think this has been what you’ve said in other threads too when things you have said are  pointed out that are incorrect with the information from the FAQ and errata

Ok

Edited by King Taloren

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Sorry you can’t apply a reroll to anything that is modified. Even if it says failed rolls that is only allowing to reroll the ones that wouldn’t have made it in the first place. The only time you can look ahead and reroll is if you are allowed to reroll all hit rolls.

This is perfectly intended to make rend and -1 and -2 modifiers actually mean something instead of giving an opponent a chance to roll even better and essentially make the reroll a buff against them at times instead of a defensive ability.

Edited by King Taloren

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I think the main reason we have this discussion is because AoS gives us a specific point in time when to make the re-rolls (before modifiers are applied).

The main reason is, because if re-rolls would be made after modifiers re-rolling dice rolls of 1 wouldn't work anymore when the roll would be modified.

The funny point is even the 9th Age (where they like really strict rules) doesn't define the time when the re-roll is applied (before or after modifiers).

1 hour ago, King Taloren said:

The only time you can look ahead and reroll is if you are allowed to reroll all hit rolls.

Or if you have a buff on the roll and you might not re-roll a roll that would be a success after modifying the roll.

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7 minutes ago, T10 said:

There is certainly nothing in the core rules that suggests you follow this sort of "look ahead" procedure. Meanwhile, there is a clear statement in the rules that Abilities take precedence over the core rule.

 

Well it isn’t in The core rules but the reroll abilities have a special word that sort of grants this look ahead.

“You CAN”

As @EMMachine points out you sometimes won’t reroll a failed dice because a positive modifier makes it a success instead. 

The Designer Commentary even states about rerolls not allowed to be taken after modifiers. No matter what the abilities say.

Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied?
A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied,
so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll. Note that, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that modifiers may have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4+ and you have a +1 modifier, you probably don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied!

 

7 minutes ago, T10 said:

The closest thing we have to a core rule that cannot be overridden by  an Ability is the rule that a dice can never be re-rolled more than once. And even *that* rule is frequently broken e.g. for the purpose of generating unique results from a table.

I have to ask what are you rerolling during the game that you need a unique result from a table? If you are talking about generating command traits or spells and abilities this is not considered a piece of the game proper and not something that fall into the no reroll category.

Edited by King Taloren

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@T10 what are you even arguing about? Are you asking if this is how this works in the rules or did you make this thread to say it shouldn't work this way?

The rules are fairly clear in this case but I get the sense that what you're driving at is you disagree with this as a concept rather than having a rules question. 

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1 minute ago, T10 said:

"So you are saying that the DESIGNERS are wrong about THEIR OWN RULES?"

Well, yeah. The part where success and failure is dependent on the unmodified roll? There is nothing in the core rules that even suggests such a thing. The Designers Commentary author here seems oblivious to the fact that Abilities can also override core rules, not just expand upon them, and so believes the core rules must be preserved and invents this "unmodified success/failure" thing to make the pieces kinda fit.

I kinda get where you are coming from. But honestly, what are you trying to achieve with this question? You state the rules and then trying to bent them into breaking. Genuine question, though. What's the goal? Because if it's an answer to your question, you seem to have gotten it with references to the rules and commentary. Or are you trying to game the system? Or change the system because you feel the game would be improved by it?

In reply to your original question. The way the rules work seem to have been answered clear and with references. I would like to add to your follow up question:

3 hours ago, T10 said:

Why is it so  important to preserve the core rule that "re-rolls happen before modifiers to the roll (if any) are applied", but we are happy to let an ability break the restriction that you cannot run and charge in the same turn?

 

It's because that's what the warscrolls and additional abilities are designed for. So abilities that specify re-rolls before modifiers could happen but the exemption needs to be in the ability. And as far as I can tell it hasn't happened yet. Same for endless reach weapons. Could happen, but hasn't yet. Point being that it isn't that important to preserve the rule re-rolls before modifiers. IT just hasn't happend yet. And without that exception it is just as important to maintain as it is to maintain you can't run and charge in the same turn. Unless an ability supercedes that specific rule. 

(all that said, yes there are still wonkily phrased rules but we generally can work around them)

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The points already been made but if you had any modifiers positive or negative, then reroll 1 rules wouldn't take effect if modifiers where applied before rerolls. 

Also there are technically 3 types of rerolls based on wording. "this model rerolls failed hit rolls" means you reroll all failed hit rolls iirespective of modifiers, "this model CAN reroll failed hit rolls" implies that you can choose to not reroll a dice if say a +1 mod would make it hit. and the funniest of all "this model can reroll rolls" for example the warpseer verminlord specifically says "this model may reroll save rolls" with no specification of fails, so technically it can reroll succesful rolls in anticipation that a modifier would cause it to fail.

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+++ MOD HAT+++

Locking this.  Not entirely sure what the question was if I'm brutally honest, but don't think there's anything left to add.

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2 hours ago, King Taloren said:

Sorry you can’t apply a reroll to anything that is modified. Even if it says failed rolls that is only allowing to reroll the ones that wouldn’t have made it in the first place. The only time you can look ahead and reroll is if you are allowed to reroll all hit rolls.

This is perfectly intended to make rend and -1 and -2 modifiers actually mean something instead of giving an opponent a chance to roll even better and essentially make the reroll a buff against them at times instead of a defensive ability.

I think players are overly enamoured by the "cleverness" of "looking ahead" at the pre-modified result of a roll. It takes a certain level of rules awareness to notice that the the re-rolling before modifiers (of which follows: before establishing success/fail results) does not mesh with abilities that allow re-roll it success/fail results!

Edit: This is really an unnecessarily complex way to shoehorn in the core rules into an Ability. Complex in that it is not immediately intuitive or described in the rules, and unnecessary because the Ability supersedes this core rule anyway.

There is certainly nothing in the core rules that suggests you follow this sort of "look ahead" procedure. Meanwhile, there is a clear statement in the rules that Abilities take precedence over the core rule.

The closest thing we have to a core rule that cannot be overridden by  an Ability is the rule that a dice can never be re-rolled more than once. And even *that* rule is frequently broken e.g. for the purpose of generating unique results from a table.

By comparison, the rules for re-rolls and modifiers simply state how they work, and do not even include the use of "always like this" or "never in any other way". This rule is no more exempt from exception than is the requirement for line of sight when shooting or being within 3" of an enemy unit to be able to fight.

-T10

Edited by T10

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15 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied?
A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied,
so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll. Note that, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that modifiers may have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4+ and you have a +1 modifier, you probably don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied

"So you are saying that the DESIGNERS are wrong about THEIR OWN RULES?"

Well, yeah. The part where success and failure is dependent on the unmodified roll? There is nothing in the core rules that even suggests such a thing. The Designers Commentary author here seems oblivious to the fact that Abilities can also override core rules, not just expand upon them, and so believes the core rules must be preserved and invents this "unmodified success/failure" thing to make the pieces kinda fit.

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@Kramer

When an Ability states "Re-roll failed hit rolls", I want to re-roll failed hit rolls. 

I don't want a big lecture on how this 4 is not eligible for a re-roll because of yada-yada-yada. If it's a failed hit roll, I re-roll it. Otherwise it's a hit.

-T10

Edited by T10
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