Some Skaven questions!

[PiotrW]

Hello!

So... for some reason, I'm lately drawn to those funny-murdery furballs AKA the Skaven I wondering whether I might play them at some point... Still, I have a few questions, general and specific ones! Could you help me out?

1. What's the quality of Skaven models available? Some of them are lovely, but some look quite dated. The miniature range includes everything from metal to resin to plastic... So, which models are the (relatively) new ones? Which are old? Which just don't look good by modern standards?

2. Are the Clanrats easy / fast to assemble? They are the main Battleline units and... these are *very numerous* units. The idea of having to assemble 40 or 60 rats just to have the required Battleline units is a bit scary...

3. Is there a way to buy Skryre Acolytes cheaper than in one-mini blisters 10 GBP each? One unit of these guys includes 5 rats... 50 GBP for 5 smallish minis? Seems a bit crazy...

4. Very specific rules question: the Screaming Bells allows you to summon a Verminlord with a lucky dice roll. How does this work in relation to army composition? Do you need to include the Verminlord beforehand in the army roster, or does the Screaming Bell allow you get one as a bonus?

5. Fluff question: what *is* a Verminlord, exactly?

6. Fluff question: how do the Skaven breed? Are there any Skaven females?

7. Overall, are the Skaven fun to play?

Thanks for your help!

[Overread]

1) It varies somewhat and some of the styles have changed over the years, you can see this comparing the older metals to the newer plastics. In general most look ok though some are very dated. Personal choice also comes into it a lot. I'd say that the old rat ogres are probably some of the worst looking, esp how the arm connects to the shoulder. Many of the metal models still look pretty good and some were quite recent sculpts. Certainly most of the leaders look very good and assassins are wroth hunting for in metal online. Gutter runners are pretty old - the plague rats are also old, but also come in the getting started set. 

In general consider function before looks at times, updated sculpts are totally unknown when they are coming. 

2) Yes, core body, shield and spear. 3 parts and a base and fairly easy to clean up. Contrast paints also make painting up blocks of them a lot faster for many, once you get used to the method of working with the paints and painting the models. 

3) Random luck on ebay, buying a local friends old skaven army otherwise nope. The only way to get them cheaper are 3rd parties and buying parts and converting other rats to look like them.

4) Summoning spells in the current edition do not require you to pay for the model in points before casting the spell. So all summons are in addition to your existing points. So if you get to summon a verminlord you pay nothing for it what so ever!

5) Verminlords are akin to Chaos Greater Demons from the other Chaos Gods. They are the Horned Rats direct agents in the Mortal Realms and the ones who deal the most with Skaven and the world in general. The Horned Rat might appear to whip them into shape every now and then, but by and large they operate to their own objectives and ideals. They will fight each other (directly or often in proxy by getting the rats that they rule/lord over to fight the competing lords rats); fight in teams against enemies of Skaven; backstab each other etc... They have their own hierachy of power and generally influence the Council of 13 (The 13 Skaven that makes up the ruling powers of the Skaven Clans)

6) Yes, though we've more details from the Old World on Skaven, but in general Skaven survived the old world ending without losing much of their history (skavenblight basically just sort of jumped out of one world and got slammed into the Realms underside). Female Skaven are born, however from a very young age they are manipulated. Fed growth hormons and drugs to make them basically into breeding machines used to birth the legions of rats. They are much rarer and access to breeding females is a very high honour fought over by the skaven lords. 

That said there have been hints (a few more in AoS) that the females, or at least some of them, might be smarter than the males think and could be prepared to conduct their own secret actions to their own advance; however thus far we've had no real stories about them. Even in the Old World there wasn't too much siad about them. 

7) They are crazy manic insane back stabbing, untrusting crazy and some are plague infested. They are a very fun faction with a lot of diversity and the Battletome has a good few options to build quite powerful and very powerful forces with. You can also twist things - going for Clan Skyre with more lightning weapons; or go for plagues and poisons or even go for wild beasts built of flesh and machine and warpstone. 

 

If you want a good AoS book then Pestilens is a great read (get it in the AoS Legends Omnibus 1 edition  as its about the same price and you get some Sylvanath and Fyreslayers stories too). 

There's also "The Loathsome Ratmen  and their Vile Kin" which is an older out of print book (harder to find) which details more of their lore. It's Old World based, but much of their general lore and behaviours are basically identical to how they are in AoS. If anything in AoS skaven are just as they were just MORE so. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Overread

[PiotrW]

2 hours ago, Overread said:

1) It varies somewhat and some of the styles have changed over the years, you can see this comparing the older metals to the newer plastics. In general most look ok though some are very dated. Personal choice also comes into it a lot. I'd say that the old rat ogres are probably some of the worst looking, esp how the arm connects to the shoulder. Many of the metal models still look pretty good and some were quite recent sculpts. Certainly most of the leaders look very good and assassins are wroth hunting for in metal online. Gutter runners are pretty old - the plague rats are also old, but also come in the getting started set. 

I see. I've been wondering about as some of the metal models look... rough. Ratling gun and warpflame thrower, for example. But maybe it's because of the way they are painted on the official photos?

2 hours ago, Overread said:

2) Yes, core body, shield and spear. 3 parts and a base and fairly easy to clean up. Contrast paints also make painting up blocks of them a lot faster for many, once you get used to the method of working with the paints and painting the models. 

I've read of these paints, but painting is somewhat secondary to me - as in, you *can* play with unpainted models I mean, I really like painting (that's why I like good-looking models), but I also want to play. And you can play with unpainted models. With unassembled models, not so much... Hence, my question.

2 hours ago, Overread said:

3) Random luck on ebay, buying a local friends old skaven army otherwise nope. The only way to get them cheaper are 3rd parties and buying parts and converting other rats to look like them.

Ah, I see. That's a bit unfortunate...

2 hours ago, Overread said:

4) Summoning spells in the current edition do not require you to pay for the model in points before casting the spell. So all summons are in addition to your existing points. So if you get to summon a verminlord you pay nothing for it what so ever!

Cool! This very useful. Thankfully, I even own a Verminlord already (I bought him as a monster for another game).

2 hours ago, Overread said:

Verminlords are akin to Chaos Greater Demons from the other Chaos Gods. They are the Horned Rats direct agents in the Mortal Realms and the ones who deal the most with Skaven and the world in general. The Horned Rat might appear to whip them into shape every now and then, but by and large they operate to their own objectives and ideals. They will fight each other (directly or often in proxy by getting the rats that they rule/lord over to fight the competing lords rats); fight in teams against enemies of Skaven; backstab each other etc... They have their own hierachy of power and generally influence the Council of 13 (The 13 Skaven that makes up the ruling powers of the Skaven Clans)

I see. As for the Horned Rat... where did he come from, actually? I know he's a Chaos God currently, but I don't think he was one in the WFB setting. So, what's his origin?

2 hours ago, Overread said:

6) Yes, though we've more details from the Old World on Skaven, but in general Skaven survived the old world ending without losing much of their history (skavenblight basically just sort of jumped out of one world and got slammed into the Realms underside). Female Skaven are born, however from a very young age they are manipulated. Fed growth hormons and drugs to make them basically into breeding machines used to birth the legions of rats. They are much rarer and access to breeding females is a very high honour fought over by the skaven lords. 

That said there have been hints (a few more in AoS) that the females, or at least some of them, might be smarter than the males think and could be prepared to conduct their own secret actions to their own advance; however thus far we've had no real stories about them. Even in the Old World there wasn't too much siad about them. 

I'd like to see some more on them. Some females models, too... In general, a gripe I have with GW is that both WFB / AoS and WH40K are very male-heavy. Thing seem to be changing for the better since AoS launched, with female Stormcast Eternals, female Darkoath barbarians etc. Still, some factions appear to consist solely of males...

2 hours ago, Overread said:

7) They are crazy manic insane back stabbing, untrusting crazy and some are plague infested. They are a very fun faction with a lot of diversity and the Battletome has a good few options to build quite powerful and very powerful forces with. You can also twist things - going for Clan Skyre with more lightning weapons; or go for plagues and poisons or even go for wild beasts built of flesh and machine and warpstone. 

Sounds fun! I haven't had that much exposure to them in the past, even though I knew of them due Warhammer Fantasy RP being quite popular over here. Nevertheless, I haven't paid too much attention to them... until I saw some Warhammer: Total War 2 cinematics. Crazy giggling rats armed with bizarre machinery - something right up my alley!

BTW. Speaking of machinery - what the heck is the Doom-Flayer? Some sort of armoured monocycle? A lawnmower? I look at the model and I'm not sure what I'm seeing - are these two rats pushing this machine? Or are they riding it?

3 hours ago, Overread said:

If you want a good AoS book then Pestilens is a great read (get it in the AoS Legends Omnibus 1 edition  as its about the same price and you get some Sylvanath and Fyreslayers stories too). 

There's also "The Loathsome Ratmen  and their Vile Kin" which is an older out of print book (harder to find) which details more of their lore. It's Old World based, but much of their general lore and behaviours are basically identical to how they are in AoS. If anything in AoS skaven are just as they were just MORE so.  

I know that there was a sourcebook for Warhammer RP about them, Children of the Horned Rat...

[Overread]

Some of the roughness is them being painted differently, I think some of them are still the original painted models from WAY back years ago. Some of it is also just differences in sculpting method and how they do things like fur on the models. Older ones tend to use more striation patterns whislt modern ones tend to use a smooth "fur tuft" design here and there*. I think one hte table the differences are far less and how you paint them will have a bigger impact. 

The Horned Rat I forget if he's got an origin story, if he has I've not yet read it. Suffice to say he's VERY old and came from the Old World where he was a god of the Skaven, but otherwise not a Chaos God as such. Kind of alongside but different. During the End Times period when the world that was was being destroyed the Great Horned One used his powers and worship of his skaven to push his way in and steal himself a seat proper in the Chaos Realms. Skaven have always been creatures influenced by Chaos and make extensive use of things like Warpstone (all those green stones/rocks they power their machines and magics with). Heck the mages and priests will even dance with madness and snort ground up warpstone to enhance their powers. 

As for female models I don't think you'll ever see regular skaven sized females for the skaven armies. If GW did them, which in theory is possible, it would take some special lore to allow it to happen - ergo for a female to avoid being enhanced and warped and turned into a breeder from birth. 
Or they could give us a proper full breeder that manages to secure enough power to herself that she becomes a leader and not a slave to the whims of the males. In that case I'd expect her to be large, probably as big as a Brood Horror if not bigger https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Skaven-Warlord-on-Brood-Horror

Also whilst I mention FW go check out the wolfrats - they are darn good looking models, not hard to build and decent on the tabletop as an elite unit. https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Skaven-Wolf-Rats

I think females in war is an area of topical debate that can get bogged down a lot. My personal feeling is that I have no problem provided that there is a good reason well written into the lore that does not require them to make sweeping changes to the established lore for a race so far established. Ergo that it becomes an evolution and advance of the lore without feeling that its just been done to "add females" into "every faction". 

Heck Daughters of Khaine and Sisters of Battle are almost all female armies. I agree armies like Stormcast and Slaves to Chaos have good reason to have females in the forces, even if they might be fewer in number in some. Meanwhile a force like Skaven or Space Marines doesn't really have a good reason without it being a one-off exception to the normal lore or there being a massive retcon/change/advance in the lore. 

That siad nothing stops ANY player making their own army who can be whatever they want.

As for the doomflayer I'm not even quite sure! It is indeed two rats, one atop the other, with one appearing to push it along; though I note that when TW made theirs in the game they took away the lower rat and made it self propelled. I've often wondered if the underrat is only there because of two possibilities:

1) Its there to push it to get it started and then it flees/hides/runs whilst the wheel powers on madly. 

2) In Old World things appeared to move a bit slower so the idea of a skaven pushing it along (whilst running of course) made sense; esp when there's units like the Doomwheel which are powered along by rats running in a wheel. 

That said its clearly a law mower motor-unicycle

*personally I think this might be one of those things that is a result of them shifting to digital sculpting. With digital it might be that the larger fur tuft approach is easier to produce with the 3D printer to a high degree of quality and with less cleaning of the master copy to produce the moulds from; whilst the striation patterns in the past were easier with a blade to make. But it could also just be different designers approaching it from different angles over time. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Overread

[PiotrW]

Once again, thanks for all the answers

As you mentioned the Wolf Rats from Forge World - can they be used in a Skaven army without any complications? They aren't listed as Skaventide in General's Handbook - instead, they are among the additional profiles, on the Monstrous Arcanum list.

On another note - I see that GW has a Skaven Start Collecting! box. It's dedicated to Clan Pestilens and it has Plague Monks, Plague Furnace and Plagueclaw. I admit that I'm more drawn to the "crazy science" side of Skaven, so - could Plague Furnace and Plagueclaw from this set be assembled in their alternate configurations, meaning the Screaming Bell and Warp Lightning Canon? If so, that box could be a great deal for me - buying the Bell and the WLC separately would be a bit more expensive, plus I'd also get a free Plague Priest from it (assuming it's allowed to take the priest's miniature from the Furnace and field it as a standalone unit, instead of that older version of PP that is sold separately?). Not to mention, my local gaming shop offers a significant discount on these sets...

[Overread]

Yes the Monstrous Arcanum is just FW's own booklet that lists their models for AoS, which is why the points updates are listed there rather than in the main battletome listing. In general AoS and fantasy were always a bit more accepting of FW stuff (mostly because there was never all that much of it to start with) and many places will openly allow their use. Tournaments might be a bit more hit and miss, but I'd wager more would allow it than not and it only takes a few moments to ask beforehand. 

 

As for the Getting Started set it does contain both sets of parts, so you can most certainly built them as screaming bells and lightning cannon. This is the same for pretty much all the getting started sets and bundles. Whilst GW might market and show only one option, the sprues are fixed and will contain all the parts for both almost always. 

[PiotrW]

Great! One last question (for now ) - Skaven Battletome. Is the current battletome up-to-date with AoS 2.0 etc., or might it be replaced soon?

[Overread]

55 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

Great! One last question (for now ) - Skaven Battletome. Is the current battletome up-to-date with AoS 2.0 etc., or might it be replaced soon?

It's fully up to date and released only this year and is totally 2.0 compatible. It also came with the 3 endless spells and the gnawhole terrain for Skaven. 

[PiotrW]

6 hours ago, Overread said:

It's fully up to date and released only this year and is totally 2.0 compatible. It also came with the 3 endless spells and the gnawhole terrain for Skaven. 

Ah, great! All right, I'm sold, then

Regarding the gnawholes - I looked up the rules for them and they seem quite useful. One thing I can't find, though, is how you place them on the board. Can you put them anywhere you want before the game starts, or are there specific rules for that?

[Kirjava13]

There are rules for placing them. They have to go 8" from a table edge and must be at least 3" from enemy units or objectives and at least 1" from other terrain.

That said, the rules for placing faction-specific scenery got an update in the General's Handbook this year. I can't recall it exactly, but I think the distance to other terrain increased.