Questions about alliances (Grand or small)!

[PiotrW]

I've been thinking a little yesterday on how the various armies mix in AoS... and I have (surprise! ) questions! Please don't get angry for me pestering you - I'm a newb...

Anyway...

1. If I understand correctly, when using the Pitched Battle mode of play, you have limits on how many units that don't belong to your main army you can take. As in: if you go for a 1000 points SCE army, you can only include up to 200 pts of non-SCE units. Also, you are limited by the Grand Alliance and the list of allowed allies assigned to each army. But these limits don't come into play if you choose to go with a non-specific Order army, right? In such a configuration, you can mix Order units with no restriction to points and listed alliances? So, for example, you cannot have Sylvaneth allied units in a Daughters of Khaine army - but in an Order army, you can use both Sylvaneth and DoK units, is that correct?

2. Even if the above is allowed, would there be Grand Alliance armies with unit combinations that could cause people to be annoyed fluff-wise? For example, the Skaven belong to Chaos... but they have almost no possible allies even among other Chaos armies. Which fits the fluff, with the Skaven being a somewhat isolated race. But, if you make a general Chaos army, you can field Skaven units along Slaaneshi daemons etc., Slaves to Darkness etc. Could there be that someone would say: "Sorry, this army just makes no sense, rules or not"?

3. All of the relates to Pitched Battles... But what about Open and Narrative Play? Are there restrictions on choosing allies, too? Or could I make a 1000 points SCE army (employing the SCE allegiance abilities etc.) with 400 points of DoK allies? Or, say, a DoK army with Sylvaneth allies?

4. Are Grand Alliances an unbreakable limit? Or do people field armies for Open / Narrative play that cross the GA lines - like, say, a mixed Order/ Chaos army? I realize that Order fights Chaos fluff-wise, but I can imagine a story where Order and Chaos units would form a temporary alliance against a Death invasion etc... Do games like these happen, or would most players say it's a total no-go?

5. One very specific question: there are all those aelf-related armies, like the Sylvaneth, DoK, Idoneth Deepkin, Darkling Covens... But GH 2019 also has an "Aelf" army list, including just two models. One of them is Mistweaver Saih, which I actually own (for non-AoS reasons). I would like to use her, but... I can't see any Order army having "Aelf" listed as allies. So, Mistweaver Saih... who can she ally with?

Thanks for your input!

[NinthMusketeer]

No need to apologise for having questions! If someone has a problem with it that's THEIR problem.

1 - You are correct on all counts.

2 - It comes down to imagination, and the answer is not completely solid. But I would say it is not an issue to be concerned about, especially for Order where the "better than them winning" argument can justify pretty much any alliance.

3 - There is a 1-ally-per-four-units restriction in the core rules you must always abide by regardless of play mode.

4 - You can technically mix between grand alliances, but that would mean no allegiance abilities at all. Better to run them as seperate armies on the same team, which also better represents how things like that happen in the fluff.

5 - She cannot be allied in and is only available to Grand Alliance Order armies.

[JPjr]

As I understand it, so other views are available but...

1. If you go for a Grand Alliance as your allegiance then yes you can use any units with that Keyword with no restriction amongst to points or listed alliances (there may be some very specific examples which explicitly don't allow it, but I can't think of any off the top of my head and if they were it would say). And so yes in. GA:Order army you could have Sylvaneth and DoK fighting bark to chainmail bikini.

2. Probably, certain people will find any excuse to act like dicks. Personally I like to create nice fluffy armies with vastly convoluted back stories that ties everything up with a nice bow, but no one else is under that obligation. If it's a match play/pitched battle and it's legal in the rules then they can play it. 

3. With Open/Narrative games then in theory no. Of course a lot of people who play what they would happily describe as Narrative games use points and will generally speaking go by the matched play army composition rules, just because generally speaking they have been thematically chosen and works with what you have in mind and means you just build one army to play across all forms of the game.

Setting up these kind of games actually requires more nuance and discussion between players before playing, and people might create their own impositions and the like to suit the kind of game they have in mind but the heart, for me, of narrative games is telling a story and that means things like army composition, whether that's the specific units you can pick, allegiances etc can be ignored/edited in any way that helps you tell that story.

4. Certainly in matched play they are. But again in Narrative or Open you're using the tools the game gives you to create the kind of game you want to play. Maybe you want to recreate a battle where Vampires and Stormcast make a desperate last stand together against a larger chaos force, it's totally lore friendly and has happened in several stories.

Now again your only restriction is what you agree to beforehand, of course if that's how you're playing then there's a pretty good chance that the story your game is telling is as important to you as the result. So in that case I would imagine for the sake of telling ap articular story or enacting a certain battle most people would find reasonable reasons why Order/Death/Destruction might on occasion team up, and perhaps when Chaos might just in an edge case ally with a Destruction horde. 

5. Sadly I think she's homeless except for in a GA: Order army, there's a few units/models like this that have originated in sidegames and have for various reasons been left a bit high & dry (Sepulchral Guard was another example).

 

 

Edited August 7, 2019 by JPjr

[Ahn-ket]

23 hours ago, JPjr said:

As I understand it, so other views are available but...

1. If you go for a Grand Alliance as your allegiance then yes you can use any units with that Keyword with no restriction amongst to points or listed alliances (there may be some very specific examples which explicitly don't allow it, but I can't think of any off the top of my head and if they were it would say). And so yes in. GA:Order army you could have Sylvaneth and DoK fighting bark to chainmail bikini.

2. Probably, certain people will find any excuse to act like dicks. Personally I like to create nice fluffy armies with vastly convoluted back stories that ties everything up with a nice bow, but no one else is under that obligation. If it's a match play/pitched battle and it's legal in the rules then they can play it. 

3. With Open/Narrative games then in theory no. Of course a lot of people who play what they would happily describe as Narrative games use points and will generally speaking go by the matched play army composition rules, just because generally speaking they have been thematically chosen and works with what you have in mind and means you just build one army to play across all forms of the game.

Setting up these kind of games actually requires more nuance and discussion between players before playing, and people might create their own impositions and the like to suit the kind of game they have in mind but the heart, for me, of narrative games is telling a story and that means things like army composition, whether that's the specific units you can pick, allegiances etc can be ignored/edited in any way that helps you tell that story.

4. Certainly in matched play they are. But again in Narrative or Open you're using the tools the game gives you to create the kind of game you want to play. Maybe you want to recreate a battle where Vampires and Stormcast make a desperate last stand together against a larger chaos force, it's totally lore friendly and has happened in several stories.

Now again your only restriction is what you agree to beforehand, of course if that's how you're playing then there's a pretty good chance that the story your game is telling is as important to you as the result. So in that case I would imagine for the sake of telling ap articular story or enacting a certain battle most people would find reasonable reasons why Order/Death/Destruction might on occasion team up, and perhaps when Chaos might just in an edge case ally with a Destruction horde. 

5. Sadly I think she's homeless except for in a GA: Order army, there's a few units/models like this that have originated in sidegames and have for various reasons been left a bit high & dry (Sepulchral Guard was another example).

 

 

Sepulchral guard are no longer left a bit & dry they are now part of LoN (legions of nagash armies)

[PiotrW]

Thanks for all the information

I admit I keep thinking of various alliances and weird army combinations lately... It's because they are all kinds of fun units in the armies I'm not sold on building in their entirety. For example, I really like Skaven machinery - lightning cannons, plague catapults, bells... and doomwheels, of course. I just love the doomwheels for some reason Still, I can't imagine running a full skaven army. So, I'm thinking on ways of finding ways for these models in some other army... and I get strange ideas.

... I mean, an SCE / Skaven army doesn't make any fluff sense at all, right?

[NinthMusketeer]

You can run a pure Skryre list with stormfiends as battleline, so there's that.

And technically there is one Skaven who managed to stormcast-ify himself such that he turns to lightning upon death then shoots back to his stronghold to reform.

[Kramer]

On 8/8/2019 at 5:55 PM, PiotrW said:

... I mean, an SCE / Skaven army doesn't make any fluff sense at all, right?

Fluff wise everything is possible. From Stormcast working with a Slaves to Darkness hero (silver tower) to Fyreslayers selling their services to any and all factions as long as they pay. 

But mostly it sounds like an amazing conversion project to me  

[Fairbanks]

On 8/8/2019 at 10:55 AM, PiotrW said:

Thanks for all the information

I admit I keep thinking of various alliances and weird army combinations lately... It's because they are all kinds of fun units in the armies I'm not sold on building in their entirety. For example, I really like Skaven machinery - lightning cannons, plague catapults, bells... and doomwheels, of course. I just love the doomwheels for some reason Still, I can't imagine running a full skaven army. So, I'm thinking on ways of finding ways for these models in some other army... and I get strange ideas.

... I mean, an SCE / Skaven army doesn't make any fluff sense at all, right?

I still play on the old rules that members of any race can be Stormcast, so that includes Skaven.

It’d be an army full of LibeRATors, Ratributors, and Squeakutors led by a Lord-Celestant on Hell-Pit Abomination.

[PiotrW]

7 hours ago, Fairbanks said:

I still play on the old rules that members of any race can be Stormcast, so that includes Skaven.

It’d be an army full of LibeRATors, Ratributors, and Squeakutors led by a Lord-Celestant on Hell-Pit Abomination.

Was something like that really a thing???

[michu]

No ,not really. But we have some hints in the books that some Stormcasts could've been aelves during their mortal life.