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azdimy

Keeper on keeper fighting last!

Question

If a keeper of secret fight another keeper and both successfully make the ennemy fight last

1- Can they use their command ability and fight a second time?

2- If so when and in which  order would they fight?

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13 minutes ago, azdimy said:

If a keeper of secret fight another keeper and both successfully make the ennemy fight last

1- Can they use their command ability and fight a second time?

2- If so when and in which  order would they fight?

1. Yes, both can

2. Keeper whose turn it is fights twice, then Keeper whose turn it is not fights twice

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Are you sure there isn't more to it than that?

Players take turns in selecting units to fight, so each time your opponent completes combat with one of his units, you check to see if you have any eligible units that can be selected to fight. Sometimes you don't have any units to select, but then later in the same phase you have a unit that has become eligible, e.g. due to enemies piling in close enough to draw a unit into combat, or in the OPs case "all other units have fought" or whatever.

if the two Keepers are the only units that are eligible to fight at the start of the combat phase and they both have to wait, then the first player, Jim, runs through his list of 1 unit and checks if it is eligible to be selected to fight. This unit has a restriction that says he must wait until last to fight. So Jim checks if he has any other units that can fight now instead and has none. He and his opponent,  Bob, checks if Bob has any units that can fight. Bob only has one unit but that too must wait until last.

Jim therefore gets to pick his Keeper to be the u it to fight first.

Bob then goes through the same process. At this point Jim could have piled in closer and drawn into combat a unit of Bob's Daemonettes who (I assume!) would have to be selected to fight before Bob's Keeper.

However, "striking last" isn't a separate combat phase started by the player whose turn it is. In Jim's turn, the two Keepers might cause each other to both strike last, and the sequence of units fighting could be something like this:

  1. Jim's Daemonettes
  2.  Bob's Daemonettes
  3. Jim's Seekers
  4. Jim's Fiends
  5. Bob's Keeper
  6. Jim's Keeper

-T10

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Posted (edited)

It has been FAQd that fighting last now means to fight at the end of the fight phase. Which is now considered a sub phase of the Combat phase which happens after both players pass in the main fighting phase.

 But a unit can still be drawn in and allowed to fight that couldn’t earlier. As @T10example shows if Jim piles in on Bobs daemonettes. They will have to fight before Bob’s keeper can be selected now.

Or vice versa. Or bob’s keeper can pile in when he fights last and a new unit of daemons will have to fight “last” because they hadn’t been eligible until now. The Combat phase ends only when there are no units left to fight.

 But @CB42 is correct that normally it is the player whose turn it is is the one who goes first when you have one or more units that have to fight last:

Edited by King Taloren

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7 hours ago, King Taloren said:

It has been FAQd that fighting last now means to fight at the end of the fight phase. Which is now considered a sub phase of the Combat phase which happens after both players pass in the main fighting phase.

If you are thinking of this:

Quote

Q: Some abilities allow or require a unit to fight at the start of the combat phase, or the end of the combat phase. How exactly does this work? What happens if two or more units have to fight at the start or the end of the phase?
A: Units that fight at the start or the end of the combat phase make a pile-in move and then attack with their melee weapons before the players start picking any other units to fight in that phase, or after the players have picked all other units to fight in that phase, respectively. So, first you pile in and make attacks with the units that are to fight at the start of the phase, then the players alternate picking units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place, and lastly you pile in and make attacks with units that make attacks at the end of the combat phase. If there are several units fighting at the start or the end of the phase, the player whose turn is taking place attacks with all of their units in the order of their choice, and then their opponent does the same. Note that abilities used at the start or the end of a phase still count as being used in the phase in question.

The part where the current player gets to fight with ALL first-strike units before his opponent fights with ALL first-strike units sounds like something they pulled out of their donkey. There is certainly no precedent in the rules, except for the opposite, i.e. alternating. Then again, this is Designers Commentary, so I guess it's what they meant to include in the rules, but didn't.

We can only hope that the next edition of the core rules will address specifically the fairly common issue of abilities that modify the order in which units fight.

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Actually I was thinking about the Warhammer Community article on Who fights first where they went into full detail with examples of how the fighting first/last  and turn order works. Thought there still several interactions that still not entirely clarified.

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51 minutes ago, T10 said:

I don't think a WHCom article really qualifies as "it has been FAQ'ed".

It was written by the FAQ guys and they said the article was their definitive answer for the fight first questions.

Ahh I missed this one: 

Q: Let’s say Unit A has been made to fight at the end of the combat phase. If, when Unit A fights at the end of the combat phase, its pile-in move results in Unit B being eligible to fight when previously it wasn’t, because Unit B was outside 3", can Unit B now pile in and attack?
A: If Unit A is from the army of the player whose turn
is taking place, then Unit B will be able to fight (as its opportunity to fight comes after that of Unit A, and
it will be eligible to fight because it is within 3" of the enemy). If, on the other hand, Unit A is part of the army belonging to the player whose turn is not taking place, then Unit B will not be able to fight (as its opportunity to fight came before that of Unit A, when it was not within 3" of the enemy).

 

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19 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

It was written by the FAQ guys and they said the article was their definitive answer for the fight first questions.

Ahh I missed this one: 

Q: Let’s say Unit A has been made to fight at the end of the combat phase. If, when Unit A fights at the end of the combat phase, its pile-in move results in Unit B being eligible to fight when previously it wasn’t, because Unit B was outside 3", can Unit B now pile in and attack?
A: If Unit A is from the army of the player whose turn
is taking place, then Unit B will be able to fight (as its opportunity to fight comes after that of Unit A, and
it will be eligible to fight because it is within 3" of the enemy). If, on the other hand, Unit A is part of the army belonging to the player whose turn is not taking place, then Unit B will not be able to fight (as its opportunity to fight came before that of Unit A, when it was not thin 3" of the enemy).

 

What the-?

With all respect to the designers, that sounds like ox ******. 

Under normal circumstances, when a pile in move brings additional units in to "fight range", these units are added to the "pool" of units able to fight. For example, Bob charges his Prosecutors in to within 3" of several of Jim's units. The units fight as follows:

  1. Bob's Prosecutors
  2. Jim's Daemonettes
  3. Jim's Seekers
  4. Jim's Fiends (these pile in to within 3" of Bob's Liberators)
  5. Bob's Liberators

How does it make any sense that, if for some reason, Jim's Fiends had been slowed to fight last then Bob's Liberator's would be unable to fight?

 Really,  this idea of a pre-fight and post-fight combat phase for first- and last-striking units has got to be something they came up with to solve a simpler issue, and they now feel they need to stick with.

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Yeah. It all started with how to solve abilities that all take place at the same time. And GW stated you apply the effects of the player whose turn it is in whatever order they want and then the players who isn’t  and in order, etc. etc. and anything that overrides an ability that happened earlier takes precedence. Unless there is specific ruling on an ability to deal with the situation. 

This spilled into the combat phase with the rampant fight first abilities and then soul cage and slaanesh’s fight last tricks. So GW came out with these rulings following the player turn chooses abilities first.

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Well, I am going to make sure my group of players are aware of the official stance on this.

I still think it has compounded into an overall poor way of resolving first/last strike effects and I will suggest that as a house rule, these are resolved on a case-by-case basis: When it is your turn to pick a unit to fight, you either have any currently eligible units unit, or you pass to your opponent who does the same. During this exchange units may cease to be eligible (often they are dead, or casualties and pile in moves have left them out of combat range), or the may become eligible (enemies have moved into combat range, or conditions have caused them to have to wait).

While I am sure the community at large will adhere to the Designers Commentary, I think sticking with players alternating and picking units based on what is eligible to fight at this point is moderately more complex but very much in keeping with the core rules.

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Posted (edited)

The main reason for the article was to explain in greater detail what they couldn’t put into the designer commentary not without printing a new pamphlet/rulebook.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/who-fights-first/

 

but go ahead it is your community. But if you guys want to play elsewhere or at tournaments out of town this is what everyone will have to understand 

Edited by King Taloren

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11 hours ago, King Taloren said:

The main reason for the article was to explain in greater detail what they couldn’t put into the designer commentary not without printing a new pamphlet/rulebook.

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/who-fights-first/

 

but go ahead it is your community. But if you guys want to play elsewhere or at tournaments out of town this is what everyone will have to understand 

I think the main problem is, that GW should have put this into the Errata instead of making an article + some FAQ Changes, because this was a serious change of game mechanics.

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I do agree there should have been some greater visibility on the entire thing. They did errata all the battle tomes with fight first abilities at the time the article was published to say that fight first means they fight at the start of the fight phase. This was published as well to say that the fight first abilities work just like any other ability and resolve in order of the player turn when there are multiple fight first and last abilities on the table

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I don't think a WHCom article really qualifies as "it has been FAQ'ed".

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