ZLee Syn Posted November 6, 2019 Author Share Posted November 6, 2019 On 11/4/2019 at 10:15 PM, Goddin said: Bonereapers don't have any strike-first capabilities, so getting them on the charge I think is our best bet. They are also susceptible to rend, as much of the army is relying on Petrifex Elite and their good saves. I think we will generally be better than them with spell casting, except for Arkhan and Nagash. Those two, I'm not sure what to do with. That and large numbers of Mortek Guard re-rolling their saves. As usual with death factions, taking out the support heroes (bone-shapers) will be key. Getting in the catapults face quickly will be important. Hitting stalkers before they can go at us would be good, especially using an ethereal zombie dragon to avoid the precision mode. All in all, too early to have a good feel on the game plan. I do think bonereapers will struggle to get to the objectives and to take them from an army as defensive as Nuhlamia, so missions like 3 places of power and duality of death should still favor Nuhlahmia heavily. Also, do you ever place chainrasps in graves? And if so how many/in which situations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glemcik Posted December 10, 2019 Share Posted December 10, 2019 Hello, any ideas how to play vs Ironjaws and 9+3+3 Orruk Gore-Gruntas with Megaboss on Maw-Krush? Can someone give me any tips? Should i stack -3 Neferata aura at start and try kill how many i can? Or hide behind chainrasps and pray for double turn with standard -2 aura? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted December 11, 2019 Author Share Posted December 11, 2019 On 12/10/2019 at 8:00 AM, Glemcik said: Hello, any ideas how to play vs Ironjaws and 9+3+3 Orruk Gore-Gruntas with Megaboss on Maw-Krush? Can someone give me any tips? Should i stack -3 Neferata aura at start and try kill how many i can? Or hide behind chainrasps and pray for double turn with standard -2 aura? Hide behind rasps. If he takes the first turn and goes all in he cannot capture his objectives so you can then summon rasps there to take them. After his charge, activate your defensive buffs and countercharge with the court Dragon breath can deal quite some damage to 9 boars, orb dragon with some help can destroy maw-krusha and your guys shoukd be quite safefor few rounds because of debuffs and heals. Once the battle is tied you can start returning rasps to hold objectives. You can also let his fast units atack rasps and then fly away, ressing rasps to block boars again while going for the rest of the army. It will depend on his plays but blocking his charge turn 1 is a way to go. Also taking away mawkrusha fast in 1 turn with orb shozld help alot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glemcik Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Thanks, but do you sometimes spend all CP for aura on first turn or do you allways want save last CP for next turn. And what do you think about switch amulet for aetherquartz brooch. Worth trying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted December 11, 2019 Author Share Posted December 11, 2019 23 minutes ago, Glemcik said: Thanks, but do you sometimes spend all CP for aura on first turn or do you allways want save last CP for next turn. And what do you think about switch amulet for aetherquartz brooch. Worth trying? I havent played this army that much yet so i can be wrong. Usualy I use neferatas ability 2 times in first 2 turns if there is fighting. If enemy has alfastrike i dont use command ability for his hit (to rasps since they would die anyway) but next turn to protect monsters. I think I used neferatas comand 3 times only once but that wasnt first turn. Only reason I see where I would definutely consider it is heavy shooting list. Aetherquartz brooch is not worth since you lose so much durability to gain something that isnt reliable and might not do anything before the game is over. It might be worth it more standard list (with alot of bodies) with neferata focused on atrition and defense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted December 15, 2019 Author Share Posted December 15, 2019 Btw Interesting thing I happened today. The new std endlessspell (demonrift) basicaly killed my whole army (around 30 mortals in first cast) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 @Goddin With neferata going down by 40 points, do you think it is a good idea to swap one chainrasps for 20 zombies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glemcik Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 I think for 40 points we can take Malovent maelstrom and prismatic palisade or Quiksilver sworda. IT should help ja a bit on first turn (and -1 to hit from palisade for def neferata can be helpfull 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddin Posted December 17, 2019 Share Posted December 17, 2019 The real question is whether you go back to 10x5x5 direwolves and shelve the chainrasps all together. 10 direwolves is a very nice screen. That being said, I'm otherwise happier with chainrasps, and they are better on the objectives. I will probably stick with chainrasps, go for a triumph, and maybe look at a cheap endless spell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted December 17, 2019 Author Share Posted December 17, 2019 8 hours ago, Goddin said: The real question is whether you go back to 10x5x5 direwolves and shelve the chainrasps all together. 10 direwolves is a very nice screen. That being said, I'm otherwise happier with chainrasps, and they are better on the objectives. I will probably stick with chainrasps, go for a triumph, and maybe look at a cheap endless spell. Yea, wolfs werevalso an idea but i feel like chainrasps are vetter because of numbers, ethereal, fly and better resurection. More move is nice but I feel like it isnt as much of a deal because I can pull them on a gravesite. Will have to see for myself. Btw which endless would you recomend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddin Posted December 18, 2019 Share Posted December 18, 2019 16 hours ago, ZLee Syn said: Btw which endless would you recomend? Probably pallisade. But gravetide has some real synergy with our bloodseeker, so I'm considering that. Thinking about which of my casters might cast the spells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glemcik Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 What do you think about this list? Do you see any chances for this idea? Allegiance: Legion of BloodMortal Realm: HyshBloodseeker Palanquin (300)- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine OrbVampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)- Deathlance & Shield & Chalice- Artefact: Orb of Enchantment- Lore of the Vampires: Vile TransferenceVampire Lord (140)- Mount: Nightmare- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit GaleNeferata Mortarch of Blood (340)- General- Lore of the Dead: Overwhelming Dread (Deathmages)10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)5 x Dire Wolves (70)5 x Dire Wolves (70)9 x Spirit Hosts (360)Court of Nulahmia (150)Extra Command Point (50)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thamalys Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 On 12/21/2019 at 2:17 PM, Glemcik said: What do you think about this list? Do you see any chances for this idea? Allegiance: Legion of BloodMortal Realm: HyshBloodseeker Palanquin (300)- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine OrbVampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)- Deathlance & Shield & Chalice- Artefact: Orb of Enchantment- Lore of the Vampires: Vile TransferenceVampire Lord (140)- Mount: Nightmare- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit GaleNeferata Mortarch of Blood (340)- General- Lore of the Dead: Overwhelming Dread (Deathmages)10 x Chainrasp Horde (80)5 x Dire Wolves (70)5 x Dire Wolves (70)9 x Spirit Hosts (360)Court of Nulahmia (150)Extra Command Point (50)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 99 A few thoughts: The Sword is better than the Lance on your VLoZD - not just my personal opinion, there are quite a few threads about this. With the Battalion in, your board presence is not very strong. You have one heavy hitter (the VLoZD), 3 screens (dogd and Rasps) and a unit of SHs (excellent choice to sit on an objective close do Nef). However, SHs are very difficult to bring back via both Gravesites and Deathly invocation. What is your Vampire Lord on foot doing? You don't have a unit that can make good use of his CA, and he is useless in melee, dying very quickly. I'd consider removing him. 140 Pts + 50 pts (you don't need two extra CPs) gives you room to add some more bodies in. Sure, you'd like an extra hero to put an extra artefact on... but it's not worth it! That's why I don't like this battalion... No Blood Knights?! Said 190 points + changing the Rasps for a third unit of wolves gives you the 200 pts you need for a unit of 5. They are AWESOME if played well. The Orb of Enchantment is very situational. The Ethereal Amulet or the Gryph-feather charm are much more reliable in keeping your precious VLoZD alive. You have a decent hammer with Nef+SHs (albeit again, it's difficult to bring them back...) but your hammer lacks bodies - you need bodies to score objectives, and this list doesn't have enough. Crucially, you don't have the offensive power to wipe out your opponent's army either, so what's likely to happen is that your opponent would simply avoid engaging with Nef and bog down your VLoZD until he's gone, all the while scoring objectives. I thnk it's really difficult to make this Battalion work... +1 CP and artefact (which often you don't now where to put!) for a squishy Nef as general as opposed to a VloZD, the Palanquin in (which I don't like at all) and not much space to bring in the units you need to ensure some form of board control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glemcik Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Thanks for your answer. Are you sure Sword is better then lance? 3 dmg after charge should be better then d3 but i have never analized this. The true is i really like this battalion and with two dragons i have nice win raito, but i wanted to try use spirit hosts somehow(i really like this models). Are you sure 5 Blood Knights can works? I always thought i need 10 or more. My idea here was use SH to guard neferata, Attack with one dragon with dark mist on side and if brooch works give him extra attack from CA. Iam just not sure about only 6 move from spirit hosts it slow my army a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted December 26, 2019 Author Share Posted December 26, 2019 On 12/22/2019 at 9:52 PM, Thamalys said: A few thoughts: The Sword is better than the Lance on your VLoZD - not just my personal opinion, there are quite a few threads about this. With the Battalion in, your board presence is not very strong. You have one heavy hitter (the VLoZD), 3 screens (dogd and Rasps) and a unit of SHs (excellent choice to sit on an objective close do Nef). However, SHs are very difficult to bring back via both Gravesites and Deathly invocation. What is your Vampire Lord on foot doing? You don't have a unit that can make good use of his CA, and he is useless in melee, dying very quickly. I'd consider removing him. 140 Pts + 50 pts (you don't need two extra CPs) gives you room to add some more bodies in. Sure, you'd like an extra hero to put an extra artefact on... but it's not worth it! That's why I don't like this battalion... No Blood Knights?! Said 190 points + changing the Rasps for a third unit of wolves gives you the 200 pts you need for a unit of 5. They are AWESOME if played well. The Orb of Enchantment is very situational. The Ethereal Amulet or the Gryph-feather charm are much more reliable in keeping your precious VLoZD alive. You have a decent hammer with Nef+SHs (albeit again, it's difficult to bring them back...) but your hammer lacks bodies - you need bodies to score objectives, and this list doesn't have enough. Crucially, you don't have the offensive power to wipe out your opponent's army either, so what's likely to happen is that your opponent would simply avoid engaging with Nef and bog down your VLoZD until he's gone, all the while scoring objectives. I thnk it's really difficult to make this Battalion work... +1 CP and artefact (which often you don't now where to put!) for a squishy Nef as general as opposed to a VloZD, the Palanquin in (which I don't like at all) and not much space to bring in the units you need to ensure some form of board control. In legion of blood, lance and sword have same damage output over 2 turns. With 18 move you should be charging. Sword is bettet in 3rd turn but lance allows you to blow targets in 1 turn. Which helps especialy with orb of enchantment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thamalys Posted December 26, 2019 Share Posted December 26, 2019 On 12/23/2019 at 7:48 AM, Glemcik said: Are you sure Sword is better then lance? 3 dmg after charge should be better then d3 but i have never analized this. and... 41 minutes ago, ZLee Syn said: In legion of blood, lance and sword have same damage output over 2 turns. With 18 move you should be charging. Sword is bettet in 3rd turn but lance allows you to blow targets in 1 turn. Which helps especialy with orb of enchantment. (Why a 18" move? 14" at most, I believe, 19" if casting Amethystine Pinions?). Right, sword or lance? Some numbers below. This is the average damage (as the rend is identical, I am assuming no save rolls) for lance and sword, on the charge or not, and applying or not the VLoZD's CA (re-roll all failed hits). I am obviously assuming we are talking LoB (+1 attack for both lance and sword). Here we go... Spoiler ** Lance Lance - no charge: 3.56 Lance - no charge | CA: 4.74 Lance - charge: 5.33 Lance - charge | CA: 7.11 ** Sword Sword: 4.44 Sword | CA: 5.93 Thus, on average the lance deals 0.89 dmg more than the sword on the charge, and 0.88 dmg less than the sword if you did not charge - a rather even gap. A similarly even gap holds when activating the VLoZD CA: the lance deals 1.18 dmg more than the sword on the charge, and 1.19 dmg less if you did not charge. So, which one is better? If you are confident you can obliterate everything you touch with your VLoZD in one go, the lance is better. However, note that being able to wipe down (tough and/or numerous) units in one go is not actually down to whether you pick lance or sword... 0.89 dmg more is nothing compare the overall boost given by the CA, which affects all your melee attacks, dragon's included. That makes for differences (between with or without the CA) of the order of 6 dmg (6.15 with the sword). Having said that, I tend to use my VLoZDs to target especially nasty units: yes, they can delete stuff on the charge, but in most cases is a question of a couple of turns (note that your CA stays active until your next hero phase). That is, in my experience the number of times I charge something with my VLoZDs is less than the number of combat phases I have to go through when I did not charge: statistically speaking, in your opponent's turn you can't charge anyway, and you tend to get quite a lot of stuff thrown at you, hence I'd advocate the sword is better than the lance, at least for a "regular" VLoZD. If you intend to play a very offensive LoB VLoZD (offensive command trait+ offensive artefact) that has higher chances to delete almost everything in one go, maybe the lance would be better (I usually tend to play very defensive VLoDZs, e.g. Aura of Dark Majesty + Etheral Amulet or Gryph-Feather Charm), but your opponent will still probably charge you in their turns. On 12/23/2019 at 7:48 AM, Glemcik said: Are you sure 5 Blood Knights can works? I always thought i need 10 or more. This is a good one... yes, a unit of 5 BKs will work, but they'll have to work in a very different way compared to a unit of 10 BKs. 5 BKs can easily fit onto a single piece of terrain (cover is huge for them, especially if standing against no-rend attack... 2+ saves!!!), can easily get into combat even against small units and/or heroes, are basically immune to bravery and offer more board control and double the threat (assuming you'll be splitting a unit of 10 into two units of 5). On the other hand, 10 BKs will make the most of your CAs (once more, the VLoZD is fantastic on them, and you if you can manage both the VLoZD and the VL CAs... that's beyond nasty on a unit of 10 - nothing can stand in their way!), will be very hard to remove as a whole, and on average pack a massive, massive punch. Whether you want two units of 5 or one unit of 10 (a single unit of 5 has its place but meh...) depends on the list you are running. Do you have two very mobile heroes that can buff them, say, two VLoZDs? I'd run run two units of 5 - these guys need support (deathless spirit is key) and a VLoZDs needs their support as well! Do you have just one support character for them? One unit of 10 it is, I'd say. Final thought: they don't fly, but Amethystine Pinions can make them fly and have them moving 15". With their 6" guaranteed charge (banner!), you are 100% sure to wrack whatever stands a whopping 21" ahead of you - wow. 12 On 12/23/2019 at 7:48 AM, Glemcik said: My idea here was use SH to guard neferata, I share your love for SHs, but I only run them in pure Nighthaunt (where the command trait brings D3 summonable models back each hero phase), as bringing them back via either Deathly Invocation and Gravesites is just too much of a gamble. 2 hours ago, ZLee Syn said: Which helps especialy with orb of enchantment. Unless you have a very specific reason to run the Orb (e.g. knowing that you'll be facing a Ghoul King on a Royal Terrorgheist or uber-nasty things such as a certain Gotrek), I find the Ethereal Amulet to be one of the best choices out there for our VLoZDs - they last a very long time even in fairly dodgy situations... On 12/23/2019 at 7:48 AM, Glemcik said: Attack with one dragon with dark mist on side and if brooch works give him extra attack from CA. Two gambles in here... you have to cast dark mist and roll a 5+ for the Brooch. Even in that case, your VLoZD will be unsupported, in that everything that wants to get to him will - and sometimes is just too many dice. VLoZD + 5 BKs would make for a much more effective hammer... Hope this makes sense! Again, I have to say I don't dig this battalion very much, but within the boundaries of it I think your list make sense. At the end, a lot of list building is about personal preference after all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted December 26, 2019 Author Share Posted December 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Thamalys said: and... (Why a 18" move? 14" at most, I believe, 19" if casting Amethystine Pinions?). Right, sword or lance? Some numbers below. This is the average damage (as the rend is identical, I am assuming no save rolls) for lance and sword, on the charge or not, and applying or not the VLoZD's CA (re-roll all failed hits). I am obviously assuming we are talking LoB (+1 attack for both lance and sword). Here we go... Reveal hidden contents ** Lance Lance - no charge: 3.56 Lance - no charge | CA: 4.74 Lance - charge: 5.33 Lance - charge | CA: 7.11 ** Sword Sword: 4.44 Sword | CA: 5.93 Thus, on average the lance deals 0.89 dmg more than the sword on the charge, and 0.88 dmg less than the sword if you did not charge - a rather even gap. A similarly even gap holds when activating the VLoZD CA: the lance deals 1.18 dmg more than the sword on the charge, and 1.19 dmg less if you did not charge. So, which one is better? If you are confident you can obliterate everything you touch with your VLoZD in one go, the lance is better. However, note that being able to wipe down (tough and/or numerous) units in one go is not actually down to whether you pick lance or sword... 0.89 dmg more is nothing compare the overall boost given by the CA, which affects all your melee attacks, dragon's included. That makes for differences (between with or without the CA) of the order of 6 dmg (6.15 with the sword). Having said that, I tend to use my VLoZDs to target especially nasty units: yes, they can delete stuff on the charge, but in most cases is a question of a couple of turns (note that your CA stays active until your next hero phase). That is, in my experience the number of times I charge something with my VLoZDs is less than the number of combat phases I have to go through when I did not charge: statistically speaking, in your opponent's turn you can't charge anyway, and you tend to get quite a lot of stuff thrown at you, hence I'd advocate the sword is better than the lance, at least for a "regular" VLoZD. If you intend to play a very offensive LoB VLoZD (offensive command trait+ offensive artefact) that has higher chances to delete almost everything in one go, maybe the lance would be better (I usually tend to play very defensive VLoDZs, e.g. Aura of Dark Majesty + Etheral Amulet or Gryph-Feather Charm), but your opponent will still probably charge you in their turns. This is a good one... yes, a unit of 5 BKs will work, but they'll have to work in a very different way compared to a unit of 10 BKs. 5 BKs can easily fit onto a single piece of terrain (cover is huge for them, especially if standing against no-rend attack... 2+ saves!!!), can easily get into combat even against small units and/or heroes, are basically immune to bravery and offer more board control and double the threat (assuming you'll be splitting a unit of 10 into two units of 5). On the other hand, 10 BKs will make the most of your CAs (once more, the VLoZD is fantastic on them, and you if you can manage both the VLoZD and the VL CAs... that's beyond nasty on a unit of 10 - nothing can stand in their way!), will be very hard to remove as a whole, and on average pack a massive, massive punch. Whether you want two units of 5 or one unit of 10 (a single unit of 5 has its place but meh...) depends on the list you are running. Do you have two very mobile heroes that can buff them, say, two VLoZDs? I'd run run two units of 5 - these guys need support (deathless spirit is key) and a VLoZDs needs their support as well! Do you have just one support character for them? One unit of 10 it is, I'd say. Final thought: they don't fly, but Amethystine Pinions can make them fly and have them moving 15". With their 6" guaranteed charge (banner!), you are 100% sure to wrack whatever stands a whopping 21" ahead of you - wow. 12 I share your love for SHs, but I only run them in pure Nighthaunt (where the command trait brings D3 summonable models back each hero phase), as bringing them back via either Deathly Invocation and Gravesites is just too much of a gamble. Unless you have a very specific reason to run the Orb (e.g. knowing that you'll be facing a Ghoul King on a Royal Terrorgheist or uber-nasty things such as a certain Gotrek), I find the Ethereal Amulet to be one of the best choices out there for our VLoZDs - they last a very long time even in fairly dodgy situations... Two gambles in here... you have to cast dark mist and roll a 5+ for the Brooch. Even in that case, your VLoZD will be unsupported, in that everything that wants to get to him will - and sometimes is just too many dice. VLoZD + 5 BKs would make for a much more effective hammer... Hope this makes sense! Again, I have to say I don't dig this battalion very much, but within the boundaries of it I think your list make sense. At the end, a lot of list building is about personal preference after all! Look above in this thread. I have both orb and amulet. My dragons are both in batalion so 18 move near palanquin. Lance and over 2 turns is statisticaly exactly the same as sword over 2 turns. The reason why lance is that much better to burst something is that it is reliable 3 damage. And If you need that burst then reliable is much better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thamalys Posted December 27, 2019 Share Posted December 27, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, ZLee Syn said: Look above in this thread. I have both orb and amulet. My dragons are both in batalion so 18 move near palanquin. Lance and over 2 turns is statisticaly exactly the same as sword over 2 turns. The reason why lance is that much better to burst something is that it is reliable 3 damage. And If you need that burst then reliable is much better I’m referring to @Glemcik list, not yours! Re: the 18” movement, thanks for clarifying (this tells you how often I run this Battalion, which is to say never I am afraid). Lance equal to sword over two turns (turns or rounds?)... it really depends on what happens in those turns/rounds. I’m not going to argue further about this one, the numbers are there for people to make their choice - taking the lance might be a valid one for some, I just so happen to opt towards what’s most useful for my play style (i.e. VLoZDs that get stuck in combat more often / for longer than just one charge per battleround). Edited December 27, 2019 by Thamalys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZLee Syn Posted January 17, 2020 Author Share Posted January 17, 2020 @Goddin What do you think about shards as endless spell? I have played few games with palisade and malestrom. Without casting bonuses malestrom was unreliable. Palisade also wasnt amazing but it blocked some movement. Also I havent played against shooting army so I guess there it will be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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