Slaanesh Summoning

[Overread]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

DP costs per summon need to increase, that's about it. 

I think that's a good direction for balance against other armies for summoning; but its a terrible direction, on its own, for internal balance of the Slaanesh army.

 

Increasing summoning costs only increases the value and importance of leaders in a Slaanesh force. Now any force that takes only a smaller number of leaders has far less summoning potential. That would directly mean that armies would HAVE to use the maximum number of leaders and also more pressure on taking Keepers for all their multiple wounds. 

So internally it makes infantry, cavalry, chariot or any other themed force FAR less viable and interesting to slaanesh players. 

 

 

I agree something should change, but I don't think just upping the costs helps and it might actually result in a very "boring" army to play. 

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, Overread said:

Increasing summoning costs only increases the value and importance of leaders in a Slaanesh force. Now any force that takes only a smaller number of leaders has far less summoning potential. That would directly mean that armies would HAVE to use the maximum number of leaders and also more pressure on taking Keepers for all their multiple wounds. 

Unfortunately without an actual redesign of the book it won't matter. If we're looking at viable fixes that can be slotted into an FAQ style update there isn't much that can be done to reduce the reliance on heroes. Its called HoS for a reason - Heroes of Slaanesh. 

[PJetski]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

There is no counter to slaanesh summoning. Slaanesh has always been a VERY fast army that hits hard, and strikes first (through various mechanics like initiative value when that was a thing, or interrupting attacks, now with the new form of ASL). But they could never take a punch to the mouth. Now they can because they just summon back what they lost. They are both as killy as they have ever been, but also more resilient then death. 

In general im not a complainer. Some in my group has been moaning about slaanesh. You either nut up or shut up. Figure a way to beat them or take your beating like a man. I'm simply pointing out that the mechanic is not balanced. I still revel the chance the play the army at the hands of a skilled player, because victory (WHEN it happens) will be that much more sweeeeeeeeet. 

This is hyperbolic... There absolutely are counters (kill/surround their heroes and the Fane) but a slow melee army like Nurgle will really struggle to implement that strategy, especially when using a list with lots of Blightkings that turn into lots of depravity.

Are we sure this is a problem with Slaanesh and not a weakness that Nurgle has to play around? Every army has bad matchups - paper always seems overpowered when you play rock. I'm not suggesting RPS is an ideal game design, but bad matchups are inevitable in a game like AOS with such huge faction diversity.

Slaanesh summoning is very good, no doubt about it. I think it's fine in competitive games, but like @Dead Scribe mentioned it's not a fun mechanic to play against in other settings. If changes are required then it should be aimed at making it less frustrating to play against, rather than changing it for the sake of the competitive scene.

[Overread]

7 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Unfortunately without an actual redesign of the book it won't matter. If we're looking at viable fixes that can be slotted into an FAQ style update there isn't much that can be done to reduce the reliance on heroes. Its called HoS for a reason - Heroes of Slaanesh. 

A limit on generation per turn would cap the amount players could summon. Attach that to a rebalance of the depravity point costs and you could easily lower the demand for leaders by imposing a limit that wasn't too hard to reach. With a more fixed amount of depravity generated per turn for armies with many or fewer leaders it would also even out the generation depending on opponents. Lots of 1 wound models or fewer multiwound would have less impact as now the difference in depravity between the two is reduced as it can't go over the limit. 

 

[XReN]

23 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

Dude i wont downgrade to your level,maths and numbers dont lie.

Imposible conversing with kids that dont know math......

If you want talk numbers then where do you get 80% of top 20 armies have free summon from?

 

[JPjr]

The Agony, Ecstasy and... The Ennui

The devotees of the Princess of Excess are a cruel and mercurial lot, addicted to extreme sensations and driven into rapturous frenzies by the scarlet lash of the whip and the cold kiss of steel. As battle rages on and the delirious cries of pain rise to a deadly crescendo the veil between the mortal realms and the pleasure pavilions of Slaanesh is rent asunder and the scittering, hellish denizens of the Realm of Chaos descend to feast in an ecstatic orgy of pain and perverse pleasure. 

But a life lived without restraint soon  blunts the senses and so the Hedonites of the Great Serpent must constantly chase new highs, seek out new depravities and push themselves to ever greater excesses to stave off the cold, spirit sapping boredom that haunts all those who walk this path and can make even the clamour of war seem a dull affair.

TLDR: From turn 2 onwards all available depravity points must be spent at the the end of your movement phase otherwise they are lost* as the sensations subside and the ruinous powers' attention drifts to more exciting scenes. Means you can summon lots of stuff but you'd need to really go for it, and plan accordingly, to get something game changing on the board.

* or 50% lost, I dunno.

 

 

Or make it so DPs don't accrue against, for example, Zombies/Skeletons and then everyone starts bringing that Undead mercenary company along for the ride.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by JPjr

[sal4m4nd3r]

49 minutes ago, PJetski said:

This is hyperbolic... There absolutely are counters (kill/surround their heroes and the Fane) but a slow melee army like Nurgle will really struggle to implement that strategy, especially when using a list with lots of Blightkings that turn into lots of depravity.

Are we sure this is a problem with Slaanesh and not a weakness that Nurgle has to play around? Every army has bad matchups - paper always seems overpowered when you play rock. I'm not suggesting RPS is an ideal game design, but bad matchups are inevitable in a game like AOS with such huge faction diversity.

Slaanesh summoning is very good, no doubt about it. I think it's fine in competitive games, but like @Dead Scribe mentioned it's not a fun mechanic to play against in other settings. If changes are required then it should be aimed at making it less frustrating to play against, rather than changing it for the sake of the competitive scene.

Slaanesh player in my group is currently ranked 4th on itc list. So he is a skilled player. I am somewhere in the 50's, so not terrible not bad either. I have beaten him before (although the game was a bit short) and at a competitive GT almost got the better of him. Its not a problem with nurgle. The problem lies with a summoning mechanic that is unbalanced. if we cant agree.. going back and forth is pointless. But you are in the minority opinion here.. by a WIDE margin. 

[Kitsumy]

Everyone knows slanesh summoning is broken and op. But some people who likes to have easy wins try to deny it. And try to force people to think they are ok.

 

fact is they are even more op than old FEC was. And despite all those fec players claiming they were ok( like this slanesh dude is triying) GW sligthy balanced them ( i think they are way stronger than most. But it was something). Same thing will happen to slanesh, bad thing is we will have to wait 5 months to next aos rebalance of points where every slanesh hero will get a point increase.

 

Exactly the same as those "balanced" arch regant and sumonning drake were nerfed on general book.

 

Btw why did u skip my maths sowhing u how the kepeer was better and cheaper than per example mage avatar? Of course u know numbers wasnt on ur favour and tried to compare it to verminlords. And in my opinnion verminlords are the single most undercosted and totally unbalanced unit in all aos by far. Even worse than all slanesh fec. Nagash etc together. So every unit compared against them will be bad of course

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

5 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

Btw why did u skip my maths sowhing u how the kepeer was better and cheaper than per example mage avatar? Of course u know numbers wasnt on ur favour and tried to compare it to verminlords. And in my opinnion verminlords are the single most undercosted and totally unbalanced unit in all aos by far. Even worse than all slanesh fec. Nagash etc together. So every unit compared against them will be bad of course

And nearly every model compared to the avatar will look good, you two are comparing the lowest hanging fruit of either side of the argument. Why not compare it to other greater daemons which also have to be balanced around their factions summoning mechanic?

[Dead Scribe]

I think if you look at it like blood bowl, where GW designs armies that are intended to be easy to play and armies that are designed to be really hard to play with, and armies in between, things get better.

Slaanesh's summoning puts it in the easy to play category.  Nothing wrong with that.

[prochuvi]

1 hour ago, XReN said:

If you want talk numbers then where do you get 80% of top 20 armies have free summon from?

 

Ok i said random numbers. I chequed data now.

Before start with order,destruction etc that it is imposible to know if have or not free sumon we have the top 15.

From those 15 we have 10 armys with free sumon ,2 armys with 0 sumon and 3 armys with access to sumons or revive models as stormcast,nighthaunt or idoneths.

So the 67% have free sumon, the 20% have acess to revive models and only 13% havent free sumon neither revive models.

So it sems the numbers that i said wasnt wrong. Of course on any of those armys as skaven the free sumon have little impact,but the point is that they have it.as stormcasts bring models back or idoneth bring tralls back.

Only fyreslayers and dok in all the top 15 have 0 free models in form of free sumon or revive

 

I got honestwargamers data for reference

Fec--have as 400-1000 free sumons units

Lon--bring back many times per game a full unit of 300-400 points

Skavens--it isnt big,but have spells and so to sumon models

Dok--havent free sumon but is there due to be underpriced and have broken auras

Slanesh--the most broken free sumon at this moment

Blades of khorne--have free sumon and very strongth but some prefer instead spend it on buffs

Tzenth--free sumon that is more strength with more spells being cast

Idoneths--havent impact but can bring back d3 tralls per turn or 3+d3 with a batallion

Stormcast--again isnt relevant but can revive one model each turn

Nurgle--more free sumon as every demon

Beast of khaos-- have free units also

Goblins--bring back  basic goblins 

Nighthaunt--little summon,but can bring back some models

Fyreslayers--0000 free units

Silvaneth--many free units and trees

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by prochuvi

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

4 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

Ok i said random numbers. I chequed data now.

Before start with order,destruction etc that it is imposible to know if have or not free sumon we have the top 15.

From those 15 we have 10 armys with free sumon ,2 armys with 0 sumon and 3 armys with access to sumons or revive models as stormcast,nighthaunt or idoneths.

So the 67% have free sumon, the 20% have acess to revive models and only 13% havent free sumon neither revive models.

So it sems the numbers that i said wasnt wrong. Of course on any of those armys as skaven the free sumon have little impact,but the point is that they have it.as stormcasts bring models back or idoneth bring tralls back.

Only fyreslayers and dok in all the top 15 have 0 free models in form of free sumon or revive

 

I got honestwargamers data for reference

 

Is free really the right term to use when in some of these cases you're required to pay points for specific models to facilitate said summoning/revival? Skaven can only do it with a screaming bell on a 12, stormcast have to take the lord arcanum? (i'm bad with stormcast names they're all the same to me). It's a little different from the summoning in the form of an allegiance ability that cannot be avoided and is essentially "free" with the only limitation being how the game is played.

[SwampHeart]

2 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

Is free really the right term to use when in some of these cases you're required to pay points for specific models to facilitate said summoning/revival? Skaven can only do it with a screaming bell on a 12, stormcast have to take the lord arcanum? (i'm bad with stormcast names they're all the same to me). It's a little different from the summoning in the form of an allegiance ability that cannot be avoided and is essentially "free" with the only limitation being how the game is played.

That's counter intuitive to the narrative he's trying to push so of course he isn't going to regard that. 

[prochuvi]

Yes that is free,or a model as the arch regent that cost 200(before the nerf) and 240 now.

Bring 200 points of gouls free,if it isnt free then for 240 points we have 200 points of gouls + a hero with stats of a  120 points hero and casting two spell

So yes the sumon is free or per example with sumon integrated in the cost the arch regent would cost as 400 point and not only 240

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++

Ive just had to tidy up some comments and issue some warnings. Can I remind you all that we want you to have fun on this forum talking about Age of Sigmar, not taking snipes at each other.

Please be nice to each other 

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

3 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

Yes that is free,or a model as the arch regent that cost 200(before the nerf) and 240 now.

Bring 200 points of gouls free,if it isnt free then for 240 points we have 200 points of gouls + a hero with stats of a  120 points hero and casting two spell

So yes the sumon is free or per example with sumon integrated in the cost the arch regent would cost as 400 point and not only 240

So still not free, but certainly discounted. But in cases like this you can try to play around the existence of those models by sniping them out with magic, shooting or a hail mary of a charge before the summoning/revival happens. That prevents the addition/recycling of models and can throw off an opponent that was banking on using the mechanic.

[SwampHeart]

18 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

Yes that is free,or a model as the arch regent that cost 200(before the nerf) and 240 now.

Bring 200 points of gouls free,if it isnt free then for 240 points we have 200 points of gouls + a hero with stats of a  120 points hero and casting two spell

So yes the sumon is free or per example with sumon integrated in the cost the arch regent would cost as 400 point and not only 240

But you're still counting Skaven as a summoning army (1 model) and IDK as a summoning army (one niche build to return slain models). Neither of those armies actually summon anything of any value. Unless you've decided that the ability to possibly add any model (back) to the table is summoning and then its such a wide berth of options that it is entirely irrelevant to discuss. 

[Ajmaus]

The depravity should not scale off how many wounds you do. Not all wounds are created equally.. If it was just a trigger it would be better.. Here is an example of how i think it should have worked.

"When a slaanash hero deals 1 or more wound unit gain d3 depravity points if that model had a wound characteristic greater than 1."

Now it triggers and you gain between 1 and 3.. No more hitting 6 minotaurs and generating 3 per model slain.

Do we really want an army wide special rule that invalidates entire unit types.. Multi wound infantry already struggle depravity just kicked while they were down

[CB42]

I've been playing Slaanesh since well before the battletome. The problem is not that there is summoning, it's that summoning is too cheap. Putting arbitrary restrictions (once per turn, must use or lose it, etc) is a bad way to address it; ask Khorne players how they feel about losing blood tithe points. If you can get to the same outcome (more balanced summoning) by either adding arbitrary restrictions or changing relative efficiency by changing costs, it's preferable to change costs than add restrictions.

The right way to address it is to increase the depravity costs for summoning, I'd estimate by about 50%. If a new Keeper of Secrets cost 45 points instead of 30 points, it would mean that killing a Keeper generates 30% of the points to get a new one rather than now, where it generates 50% of the points to get a new one. Someone who takes 3 keepers and generates 10-15 depravity from other sources (charging as godseekers, summoning near the fane, etc) generates about 44 depravity points when those keepers die; right now, that person could get 2 keepers of secrets having done no damage, but with an increase in summoning costs, they'd be able to get 1 keeper and 10 daemonettes. And that would be for a list built entirely around generating depravity. Killing 3 keepers of secrets and them getting 1 back feels way less oppressive than killing 3 keepers and them getting 2 back.

This makes Slaanesh lists that are not built around summoning more viable as there's less opportunity cost. Yeah, maybe that 1 keeper / 1 epitome / 90 daemonettes with mortal wounds on 6s to wound battalion list isn't really viable right now because why not just take more heroes, but if the relative efficiency of heroes is reduced because of summoning cost nerfs, non-heroes are relatively more impactful to take in a Slaanesh list.

And honestly, once summoning is nerfed a little bit, the rest of Slaanesh is still strong but nowhere near as overpowered. The locus is especially harsh for certain armies but can be played around - it's mostly bad when people are getting introduced to the game or are otherwise somewhat new to playing around fight first / fight last / fight twice stuff, but that's also true of FEC, FS, Khorne, Idoneth, new Sylvaneth, and anyone else who plays the "activation wars" game. And @Swampheart is right - a Keeper who fights twice is good for their points, and a Keeper who fights once is really bad for their points. Their entire efficiency right now is based on summoning and how much CP the slaanesh player can funnel into them. Which is part of why taking multiple keepers isn't actually that efficient unless you can feed all of them cp to fight twice... except for how much depravity generation they have, which is why summoning should be nerfed.

Edited August 6, 2019 by CB42

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

6 minutes ago, CB42 said:

This makes Slaanesh lists that are not built around summoning more viable as there's less opportunity cost. Yeah, maybe that 1 keeper / 1 epitome / 90 daemonettes with mortal wounds on 6s to wound battalion list isn't really viable right now because why not just take more heroes, but if the relative efficiency of heroes is reduced because of summoning cost nerfs, non-heroes are relatively more impactful to take in a Slaanesh list.

Does make you wonder how lists that aren't built around summoning would perform in a competitive setting.

[Dead Scribe]

They'd be much more of a challenge and riskier.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

3 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

They'd be much more of a challenge and riskier.

Sounds like a bunch of competitive players would jump ship lol

[CB42]

41 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

Does make you wonder how lists that aren't built around summoning would perform in a competitive setting.

I run a list that isn’t built around summoning (it primarily summons over the course of the game 1-3 MSU Daemonettes for holding objectives). I’ve won a GT and placed top 3 at 4 other events, so I’ve had a lot of success with it competitively, but it is definitely not how the vast majority of people play slaanesh. And it’s VERY hit or miss - if you mess up at all in deployment or who you charge or who to locus, you kind of just lose the game.

But the point is... with nerfed summoning, Slaanesh can still hang with the big boys, but lists need to be reformed into things that aren’t just hero hammer. And there’s no safety blanket if the Slaanesh player makes a mistake.

Edited August 6, 2019 by CB42

[Dead Scribe]

41 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

Sounds like a bunch of competitive players would jump ship lol

Thats as of now probably true, because the list wouldn't be nearly as competitive.

[Grailstorm]

55 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Thats as of now probably true, because the list wouldn't be nearly as competitive.

Any army that can make you strike last and generate extra attacks on 6s for free is inherently competitive assuming balanced points, because these are two of the most brilliant abilities in the game. Khorne players have to spend 8 tithe points to get the attacking ability. 

The summoning is the icing on the cake.

I’m sure lots of people would jump ship.

But equally, if I was creating an army from scratch and I could choose any allegiance rules from any Battletome, those two Slaanesh ones would be right up there.