Slaanesh Summoning

[Tankman]

Simple change with maybe reducing some of the summoning costs is that slaneesh only gains depravity points on their own turn.  That way multiwound armies can at least get in combat on their own turn and it reduces the weird feeling of giving free depravity during the shooting phase.

[Dead Scribe]

3 hours ago, Grailstorm said:

Any army that can make you strike last and generate extra attacks on 6s for free is inherently competitive assuming balanced points, because these are two of the most brilliant abilities in the game. Khorne players have to spend 8 tithe points to get the attacking ability. 

The summoning is the icing on the cake.

I’m sure lots of people would jump ship.

But equally, if I was creating an army from scratch and I could choose any allegiance rules from any Battletome, those two Slaanesh ones would be right up there.

They are ok abilities on their own, but its the ability to generate an additional 600 - 1000 points in the game on top of those abilities which makes the army desirable at the tournament level.

[darkspear]

Agree it is over the top.  I had 2 games, one see him summoning 2 KoS and half a army.  The 2nd game I was lucky and manage to get double turn early to kill all his characters.  He had 60 + depravity points, if I had not cause the final wound all the KoS will be summoned back.

[Kasper]

The Depravity Point mechanic should be reworked. It is kinda silly to have 150+ in a game vs FEC etc., but having near zero vs Seraphon (fighting screen after screen of Skinks) and Skaven. The outcome of the summoning is so swingy depending on the army you fight. I would rather have it somewhat "normalized" so you have somewhat same outcome regardless of what the enemy fields.

FEC/Seraphon etc. doesn't care what they play against - They will have the same summon oppotunities, but that isn't the case for Slaanesh where it is either extremely broken or simply terrible.

[Kasper]

9 hours ago, Tankman said:

Simple change with maybe reducing some of the summoning costs is that slaneesh only gains depravity points on their own turn.  That way multiwound armies can at least get in combat on their own turn and it reduces the weird feeling of giving free depravity during the shooting phase.

Slaanesh already suffers a lot from super heavy shooting armies. The majority of the gamebreaking Depravity Point generation is from killing monsters or multiple wound models, not from taking damage in the shooting phase tbh.

[XReN]

14 hours ago, prochuvi said:

Ok i said random numbers. I chequed data now.

Before start with order,destruction etc that it is imposible to know if have or not free sumon we have the top 15.

From those 15 we have 10 armys with free sumon ,2 armys with 0 sumon and 3 armys with access to sumons or revive models as stormcast,nighthaunt or idoneths.

So the 67% have free sumon, the 20% have acess to revive models and only 13% havent free sumon neither revive models.

So it sems the numbers that i said wasnt wrong. Of course on any of those armys as skaven the free sumon have little impact,but the point is that they have it.as stormcasts bring models back or idoneth bring tralls back.

Only fyreslayers and dok in all the top 15 have 0 free models in form of free sumon or revive

 

I got honestwargamers data for reference

Fec--have as 400-1000 free sumons units

Lon--bring back many times per game a full unit of 300-400 points

Skavens--it isnt big,but have spells and so to sumon models

Dok--havent free sumon but is there due to be underpriced and have broken auras

Slanesh--the most broken free sumon at this moment

Blades of khorne--have free sumon and very strongth but some prefer instead spend it on buffs

Tzenth--free sumon that is more strength with more spells being cast

Idoneths--havent impact but can bring back d3 tralls per turn or 3+d3 with a batallion

Stormcast--again isnt relevant but can revive one model each turn

Nurgle--more free sumon as every demon

Beast of khaos-- have free units also

Goblins--bring back  basic goblins 

Nighthaunt--little summon,but can bring back some models

Fyreslayers--0000 free units

Silvaneth--many free units and trees

 

 FEC spend CPs to summon, LoN spend CPs to revive, so they do it instead of using powerfull Command Abilities. You will never see a 1000 points free summon FEC list win anything because it just doesn't work.

Skaven and Sylvaneth are irrelevant, both have to spend a lot of points to get any summons and the only guaranteed one is Allariel's summon, which is the only thing that makes her worth those points

Nighthaunt don't have summon in any form, only model revives, so they go into same boat as SCE and Idoneth - spending points for inferior durability

Now 4 chaos marked armies as well as BOC do have summon and it is in fact free. And also goblins

 

Also if we started with top 20 lets continue with top 20

Order - can't really know, agreed

Seraphon - can summon loads and loads of models, but sit at 17th place with only 5 win list being Thundersomething Cohort with not that much summon

Ironjaws can bring back a unit through battalion

And both sky and chaos stunties do not have summon

 

Lets now shuffle those %

30% (Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeench, Slaanesh, BOC and GSG) Have free summon

20% (DOK, KO, FS and LoA) Do not have summon

15% (SCE, NH, IDK) Have model revives

15% (Seraphon, Sylvaneth and Skaven) Have random summon through heroes 

10% (FEC and LoN) Have summon you have to spend resources for (they also tied to certain locations on battlefield to either do it, or cut some expences, GSG are in the same boat)

5% (Ironjaws) Have battalion summon

5% (Order) We can't know

 

All those armies that do have summon, unit return and model revive are evenly distributed through the list, mixed with non summoning armies.

Also, only 2 armies with battletomes are not presented in those top 20. 

You can make any arguements, calculate any points worth of summoning an army can do, but it will still be a wrong generalization to say that summoning is a problem, there are armies that are a problem, not summoning.  

You also shouldn't talk numbers and be condescending ****** if you haven't checked data first.

[whispersofblood]

I'm very hesitant about posting in this thread but the level of generalisation is just too high to not push back against. So I have a few questions for those who think that HoS summoning is too easy or overpowered.

What is it about the summoning that is overpowered

The units that are being summonable?

The power of the models being summoned?

That somehow HoS summoning gives them an unfair advantage at winning the game?

That the HoS is being rewarded for doing what they would not do normally? Or behaviour that is counter intuitive to the narrative?

That it feels bad to kill a Keeper of Secrets and see a new one come on the board?

For example. People have stated the swingy nature of Depravity generation as a bug and therefore display it as a weakness in the design. But, if you consider it a feature of the narrative and see that it works as intended then it is a build issue that the HoS player must work with, meaning they can't rely on Depravity generation to cover gaps in their build. 

If people really want to discuss Slaanesh summoning be prepared to answer a lot of questions about how you and your meta approach AoS not just attitude but actual strategic demeanour, otherwise there is no common ground for understanding and its a bunch of nerds yelling at each other.

 

[Dead Scribe]

Point One:  Some people get angry at free points from summoning.  Those people are outside of the scope of AOS' general audience, so I'd say they don't really count.

HoS summoning gives them an unfair advantage?  Well, its easy to do with depravity and requires very little effort.  Some may call that unfair.  I see that as working as intended.

Feels bad to kill a keeper only to have a new one pop up?  I refer to my point one.  Those people are outside of the scope of AOS' general audience, because the designers have opted to go with the bonkers summoning / recycling route.

Mostly when I see people complaining about depravity and summoning its that the person does not like the free points advantage or perspective and its negative for them to watch their opponents rack up more models they did not pay for.  But again point one at the very top.

[JPjr]

Please drive carefully...

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

3 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

I'm very hesitant about posting in this thread but the level of generalisation is just too high to not push back against. So I have a few questions for those who think that HoS summoning is too easy or overpowered.

What is it about the summoning that is overpowered

The units that are being summonable?

The power of the models being summoned?

That somehow HoS summoning gives them an unfair advantage at winning the game?

That the HoS is being rewarded for doing what they would not do normally? Or behaviour that is counter intuitive to the narrative?

That it feels bad to kill a Keeper of Secrets and see a new one come on the board?

For example. People have stated the swingy nature of Depravity generation as a bug and therefore display it as a weakness in the design. But, if you consider it a feature of the narrative and see that it works as intended then it is a build issue that the HoS player must work with, meaning they can't rely on Depravity generation to cover gaps in their build. 

If people really want to discuss Slaanesh summoning be prepared to answer a lot of questions about how you and your meta approach AoS not just attitude but actual strategic demeanour, otherwise there is no common ground for understanding and its a bunch of nerds yelling at each other.

 

It's more or less a quality + quantity issue from my understanding. 

For example LoN can keep recycling any unit with summoning, most summonable units have sub par stat lines that are adjusted by the fact their models can come back. Plus complete unit res can only happen from graveyards near the general.

Now I can't speak for summoning restrictions on khorne or seraphon, all i know is seraphon never cast spells to max points and khorne loses theirs once they spend them, but I've seen players of both armies just slap down summoned stuff anywhere on the table and that's huge despite their limited generation (you can only spam so many wizards as seraphon and MSU's aren't exactly in meta for khorne to abuse) 

Slaanesh units, much like the rest of chaos who share the theme of summoning daemons and/or overgrown farm animals, have a summoning mechanic that's fluffy, in this case non lethal pain, and their units are decent enough to stand on their own (within the context of being backed by their allegiance) but are also summonable. Now unlike the other 3 god armies, slaanesh has no mortals aside from 1 unit and thus have basically their entire toolkit at their disposal for summoning. Now that's not normally an issue since the 3 other god armies have their own equivalents + mortals and competitive players will buy spare daemons anyways, BUT we run into the issue with how each army summons. 

Like I said, MSU's are in short supply so khorne is starving for tithe, on the flipside if it where an MSU heavy meta we might be having this discussion about khorne but I digress. Tzeentch is all about that magic, and aside from LoN and slaanesh, I can't think of other armies that spam wizards unintentionally or not. So it's only a few matchups there that they can really pop off. Nurgle is probably the most consistent and certain builds can get you a late game GUO but by turn 3 it better be a hell of a gamechanger with where you summon him. Slaanesh, much like khorne and nurgle, use an unavoidable game mechanic to generate points, but unlike the others, slaanesh doesn't care how many units are on the table or anything like that, just that non lethal wounds happen. This is where some of the griping lies. Another complaint is the power per cost of units, while I feel the KoS is sitting where it should be at 360pts, the summoning cost is only 30 so even a mediocre to abysmal turn, say 2 KoS die but you get off a couple wounds with spells or whatever and you get your d3 host depravity, boom that's a turn 2 KoS to try to bounce you back after a terrible first turn. You snowball when you succeed and have a mediocre but still existent safety net when you fail. Meanwhile the other khorne and tzeentch are less reliable in summoning a quantity of daemons or a few powerful daemons and nurgles predictable generation leaves them with needing to decide on whether to spend points now or save for the turn 3 GUO.

Now the argument is still true that skill and luck  will still turn a game around in your favor, that greater daemon the opponent just got because YOU played well can be offsetting mentally. You can also argue that it can be played around by zoning out heroes, but that's a potential 6 heroes to have zoned or killed by turn 2, not all armies have the tools for that level of hunting/swamping and a lot of the ones who can have to go all in on it. Yeah you'll yank the teeth out of a slaanesh army by killing the big heroes and zoning the little ones but your gonna be screwed when your alpha strike speed list goes into the next 4 rounds at a GT against skaven or some other popular list.

I'd argue that from a gameplay perspective it's still a mechanic that can absolutely be played around and prepare for, but the psychological effect is clearly profound as this thread shows. Personally I'd welcome a change such as focusing more on the host specific depravity generators or making it easier to zone out the summoning, maybe only being able to summon from a wounded hero to add a bit of fluff, the daemons joining the party rather than popping up because the herald on the corner of the table who did nothing all game asked them to. or maybe restricting it to only the fane and epitomes? The daemons coming through the mirrors, yeah people would abuse epitomes but it helps with target priority, shoot the epitomes turn 1 and zone the fane.

Sorry for the essay lol

[whispersofblood]

31 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

It's more or less a quality + quantity issue from my understanding. 

For example LoN can keep recycling any unit with summoning, most summonable units have sub par stat lines that are adjusted by the fact their models can come back. Plus complete unit res can only happen from graveyards near the general.

Now I can't speak for summoning restrictions on khorne or seraphon, all i know is seraphon never cast spells to max points and khorne loses theirs once they spend them, but I've seen players of both armies just slap down summoned stuff anywhere on the table and that's huge despite their limited generation (you can only spam so many wizards as seraphon and MSU's aren't exactly in meta for khorne to abuse) 

Slaanesh units, much like the rest of chaos who share the theme of summoning daemons and/or overgrown farm animals, have a summoning mechanic that's fluffy, in this case non lethal pain, and their units are decent enough to stand on their own (within the context of being backed by their allegiance) but are also summonable. Now unlike the other 3 god armies, slaanesh has no mortals aside from 1 unit and thus have basically their entire toolkit at their disposal for summoning. Now that's not normally an issue since the 3 other god armies have their own equivalents + mortals and competitive players will buy spare daemons anyways, BUT we run into the issue with how each army summons. 

Like I said, MSU's are in short supply so khorne is starving for tithe, on the flipside if it where an MSU heavy meta we might be having this discussion about khorne but I digress. Tzeentch is all about that magic, and aside from LoN and slaanesh, I can't think of other armies that spam wizards unintentionally or not. So it's only a few matchups there that they can really pop off. Nurgle is probably the most consistent and certain builds can get you a late game GUO but by turn 3 it better be a hell of a gamechanger with where you summon him. Slaanesh, much like khorne and nurgle, use an unavoidable game mechanic to generate points, but unlike the others, slaanesh doesn't care how many units are on the table or anything like that, just that non lethal wounds happen. This is where some of the griping lies. Another complaint is the power per cost of units, while I feel the KoS is sitting where it should be at 360pts, the summoning cost is only 30 so even a mediocre to abysmal turn, say 2 KoS die but you get off a couple wounds with spells or whatever and you get your d3 host depravity, boom that's a turn 2 KoS to try to bounce you back after a terrible first turn. You snowball when you succeed and have a mediocre but still existent safety net when you fail. Meanwhile the other khorne and tzeentch are less reliable in summoning a quantity of daemons or a few powerful daemons and nurgles predictable generation leaves them with needing to decide on whether to spend points now or save for the turn 3 GUO.

Now the argument is still true that skill and luck  will still turn a game around in your favor, that greater daemon the opponent just got because YOU played well can be offsetting mentally. You can also argue that it can be played around by zoning out heroes, but that's a potential 6 heroes to have zoned or killed by turn 2, not all armies have the tools for that level of hunting/swamping and a lot of the ones who can have to go all in on it. Yeah you'll yank the teeth out of a slaanesh army by killing the big heroes and zoning the little ones but your gonna be screwed when your alpha strike speed list goes into the next 4 rounds at a GT against skaven or some other popular list.

I'd argue that from a gameplay perspective it's still a mechanic that can absolutely be played around and prepare for, but the psychological effect is clearly profound as this thread shows. Personally I'd welcome a change such as focusing more on the host specific depravity generators or making it easier to zone out the summoning, maybe only being able to summon from a wounded hero to add a bit of fluff, the daemons joining the party rather than popping up because the herald on the corner of the table who did nothing all game asked them to. or maybe restricting it to only the fane and epitomes? The daemons coming through the mirrors, yeah people would abuse epitomes but it helps with target priority, shoot the epitomes turn 1 and zone the fane.

Sorry for the essay lol

I don't mind an essay at all, lets people actually discuss real information rather than a couple lines about their gaming groups feelings.

I want to make a few basic statements and see if people disagree with them.

If you strip down HoS to its basic components its a jogging speed combat army. Meaning that you can have on average about a 12" mv and charge. I don't think there is much to disagree with there? 

They have pretty average to mediocre combat stats. Mostly 3+/4+/ -1/dmg1, generally no buffs better than a rr1. In fact only unit better than that is fiends (3/3/-1/variable) which are the slowest unit in the book. 

The army has no defensive buffs, or defensive de-buffs, no -1 to hits or wounds, rr saves, redundant saves, it only deals damage.

The army has 1 native shooting profile, and 4 units without access the Hero Keyword.

I think the above is pretty undebatable, so I'll get into the controversial stuff.

The KoS warscroll isn't worth 360 points. But, with allegiance abilities and that it provides at least 13 depravity it provides utility, that no other unit in the faction provides. And, its command ability makes it a pretty well self contained scroll. However we haven't actually seen it allied in anywhere, so there must be something about it that isn't checking boxes in the meta brain.

Also to be perfectly clear, if you kill 2 Keeper of Secrets in your first turn, the soonest they would summon is turn 2. There are specific circumstances in which they could get 30 and they all include having multiple infernal Enrapturess. Arcane bolt could theoretically get 3, but that still leaves the HoS player 1 short, and you know the range on that. Song of Secrets, but you killed all the wizards that can cast that spell, and Hysterical Frenzy, but that spell is wholly within so if you leave one model trailing you are immune to that spell. Invaders have to be in the opponents territory in the hero phase, which is impossible since they have no alternative deployment units, Godseekers is in the charge phase, and Pretenders in in the combat phase.

While Locus of Diversion is a battle trait, the army actually functions because of the KoS Excess of Violence Command ability. Which again points to the importance of the KoS in the army, and the mediocre nature of the armies ability to deal damage.

I'll conclude with another statement. In a book with no defensive augmentation, no shooting, no alternative deployment, short ranged offensive magic, comprised mainly of models with multiples of 3/4/-1/dmg 1" attacks, and limited access to mortal wounds. How do you propose an army like this functions without a) summoning fresh troops through the game in, with a semi-predictable mechanic or b) being a 90+ daemonette horde?

Now the answer to this question totally depends on how you view AoS. If you see it as a game to score more points than your opponent, then you will see 'a' as the best solution. The opponent can engage with the mechanic, can force the HoS player to summon non-combatants (non heroes) to secure objectives, zone areas so they can only summon certain types of models, force them to summon of heroes in non-optimal places, deny giving them DP in your turn and make them earn them in their own turn so they can't summon in time. There is lots of play there.

If you think AoS is about killing the opponents army and then scoring with whatever you have left, well you'll probably prefer they have more mediocre models, and then complain they have too many models and its unfair anyway. 

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

4 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

I don't mind an essay at all, lets people actually discuss real information rather than a couple lines about their gaming groups feelings.

I want to make a few basic statements and see if people disagree with them.

If you strip down HoS to its basic components its a jogging speed combat army. Meaning that you can have on average about a 12" mv and charge. I don't think there is much to disagree with there? 

They have pretty average to mediocre combat stats. Mostly 3+/4+/ -1/dmg1, generally no buffs better than a rr1. In fact only unit better than that is fiends (3/3/-1/variable) which are the slowest unit in the book. 

The army has no defensive buffs, or defensive de-buffs, no -1 to hits or wounds, rr saves, redundant saves, it only deals damage.

The army has 1 native shooting profile, and 4 units without access the Hero Keyword.

I think the above is pretty undebatable, so I'll get into the controversial stuff.

The KoS warscroll isn't worth 360 points. But, with allegiance abilities and that it provides at least 13 depravity it provides utility, that no other unit in the faction provides. And, its command ability makes it a pretty well self contained scroll. However we haven't actually seen it allied in anywhere, so there must be something about it that isn't checking boxes in the meta brain.

Also to be perfectly clear, if you kill 2 Keeper of Secrets in your first turn, the soonest they would summon is turn 2. There are specific circumstances in which they could get 30 and they all include having multiple infernal Enrapturess. Arcane bolt could theoretically get 3, but that still leaves the HoS player 1 short, and you know the range on that. Song of Secrets, but you killed all the wizards that can cast that spell, and Hysterical Frenzy, but that spell is wholly within so if you leave one model trailing you are immune to that spell. Invaders have to be in the opponents territory in the hero phase, which is impossible since they have no alternative deployment units, Godseekers is in the charge phase, and Pretenders in in the combat phase.

While Locus of Diversion is a battle trait, the army actually functions because of the KoS Excess of Violence Command ability. Which again points to the importance of the KoS in the army, and the mediocre nature of the armies ability to deal damage.

I'll conclude with another statement. In a book with no defensive augmentation, no shooting, no alternative deployment, short ranged offensive magic, comprised mainly of models with multiples of 3/4/-1/dmg 1" attacks, and limited access to mortal wounds. How do you propose an army like this functions without a) summoning fresh troops through the game in, with a semi-predictable mechanic or b) being a 90+ daemonette horde?

Now the answer to this question totally depends on how you view AoS. If you see it as a game to score more points than your opponent, then you will see 'a' as the best solution. The opponent can engage with the mechanic, can force the HoS player to summon non-combatants (non heroes) to secure objectives, zone areas so they can only summon certain types of models, force them to summon of heroes in non-optimal places, deny giving them DP in your turn and make them earn them in their own turn so they can't summon in time. There is lots of play there.

If you think AoS is about killing the opponents army and then scoring with whatever you have left, well you'll probably prefer they have more mediocre models, and then complain they have too many models and its unfair anyway. 

A couple of points to make here:

You don't see the KoS allied because it's spells, exploding 6's and other buffs that let them spiral out of control come from the allegiance, and it's command ability only works on units with the hedonites keyword so aside from itself you'd have no other targets.

Also depending on deployment, seekers and hellstriders can easily land enough turn 1 charges for the d6 depravity roll.

And yup our hit and wound rolls are for the most part mediocre, it's somewhat compensated by an abundance of low rend, universal reroll 1's spell and exploding 6's but on their own our units don't have the teeth their made out to be. My fear as a slaanesh player isn't rend or even most shooting, it's multidamage attacks and opponents with easy access to save rerolls to mitigate my low rend. Had a game against ogors, I won because well, good book vs no book but his ironguts walked through most of what engaged them due to a few unlucky locus rolls and high damage weapons being swung at garbage saves.  Or in another game when chameleon skinks redeployed onto an objective i was holding with the remnants of a daemonette squad and watched them get shot off by skinks within stabbing distance. So there absolutely is counterplay as far as objectives are concerned. A good push onto an objective and placing your units well enough to avoid locus' can crush a slaanesh lline.

[whispersofblood]

14 hours ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

A couple of points to make here:

1. You don't see the KoS allied because it's spells, exploding 6's and other buffs that let them spiral out of control come from the allegiance, and it's command ability only works on units with the hedonites keyword so aside from itself you'd have no other targets.

2. Also depending on deployment, seekers and hellstriders can easily land enough turn 1 charges for the d6 depravity roll.

3. And yup our hit and wound rolls are for the most part mediocre, it's somewhat compensated by an abundance of low rend, universal reroll 1's spell and exploding 6's but on their own our units don't have the teeth their made out to be. My fear as a slaanesh player isn't rend or even most shooting, it's multidamage attacks and opponents with easy access to save rerolls to mitigate my low rend. Had a game against ogors, I won because well, good book vs no book but his ironguts walked through most of what engaged them due to a few unlucky locus rolls and high damage weapons being swung at garbage saves.  Or in another game when chameleon skinks redeployed onto an objective i was holding with the remnants of a daemonette squad and watched them get shot off by skinks within stabbing distance. So there absolutely is counterplay as far as objectives are concerned. A good push onto an objective and placing your units well enough to avoid locus' can crush a slaanesh lline.

Added numbers for ease of reference.

1. I agree, what makes the KoS strong is 2+ Locus, and exploding 6's. But its base profile combined with this is where the reliable damage comes from in the book. Which is why you are seeing tournament armies include multiple KoS. 1) it does the most reliable damage in the book, 2) it has utility via depravity and 3) even if you only took it for Excess of Violence you would need 2 because it is wholly within 12". I'm generally an anti-mainstream guy, so I've spent basically every day since launch looking for damage from places other than the KoS and I haven't found one. They all rely on Excess of Violence, so at that point why am I not just taking the KoS. I think they really messed the book up with the Fiend pricing, they should have been aggressively priced to compete against all the things the KoS brings to the army. The Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot is 10 points more, and brings way more to the army than 3 fiends, despite that Fiends on average kills less. The Exalted does about 8 wounds all told to a singe unit with a 4+ save, 3 Fiends do about 6 if you are lucky. It jumps a bit against ,multiwound models, but then the Bladebringer gives depravity points against the same unit. Then consider that Fiends will almost never be in a position to hold down an objective efficiently, when Heroes score in many battleplans.

2.  Correct but that is still in the charge phase, so there is still no turn 1, KoS or 30 daemonettes without multiple Infernal Enrapturesess. Unless of course you are foolish enough to give them the depravity they need to do so, and not kill the character they will want to summon off of.

3. That's the thing, the dmg is pretty meh overall outside of a KoS, or maxed Daemonettes in revellers (which is shockingly poor in my estimation). I've even tried 20 man Seeker units and they are still kind of disappointing. Its the double fight that does the dmg, and that mechanic has room to interact. Its not a second pile-in. There needs to be an enemy unit with 3" for the Cmd ability to even work, so you don't get a 3" pile-in and 1" reach fight. I've watched Wrathmongers make 1 or 2 too many saves and lost a KoS. The book is all honest dmg, heaven forbid you come up against a Nurgle horde with multiple harbingers.

People can say but Whispersofblood, not all factions have those rules. But every faction you can use chaff, and spacing. I'm fairly certain there are two big problems with HoS. No one actually knows what is in the book, besides about half the players who actually play HoS. And, casual players are incredibly resistant to changing their perception of the game and their army builds.

Edited August 8, 2019 by whispersofblood

[NurglesFirstChosen]

It’s comical how there’s a thread about slaanesh summoning like it’s the only broke thing in the game.... what about Fyreslayers with +2 save and a ++4 ward. So one army brings back what you kill (ish) and the other can’t be killed. 

Theres always broken builds. Dok held that throne for a good while, then fec and skaven. These 3 have been ‘nerfed’ and they’re pretty much just as powerful. 

The next 4 battletomes will counter slaanesh, and FS... and the power creep will continue. 

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

46 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Added numbers for ease of reference.

1. I agree, what makes the KoS strong is 2+ Locus, and exploding 6's. But its base profile combined with this is where the reliable damage comes from in the book. Which is why you are seeing tournament armies include multiple KoS. 1) it does the most reliable damage in the book, 2) it has utility via depravity and 3) even if you only took it for Excess of Violence you would need 2 because it is wholly within 12". I'm generally an anti-mainstream guy, so I've spent basically every day since launch looking for damage from places other than the KoS and I haven't found one. They all rely on Excess of Violence, so at that point why am I not just taking the KoS. I think they really messed the book up with the Fiend pricing, they should have been aggressively priced to compete against all the things the KoS brings to the army. The Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot is 10 points more, and brings way more to the army than 3 fiends, despite that it on average kills less. The Exalted does about 8 wounds all told to a singe unit with a 4+ save, 3 Fiends do about 6 if you are lucky. It jumps a bit against ,multiwound models, but then the Bladebringer gives depravity points against the same unit. Then consider that Fiends will almost never be in a position to hold down an objective efficiently, when Heroes score in many battleplans.

2.  Correct but that is still in the charge phase, so there is still no turn 1, KoS or 30 daemonettes without multiple Infernal Enrapturesess. Unless of course you are foolish enough to give them the depravity they need to do so, and not kill the character they will want to summon off of.

3. That's the thing, the dmg is pretty meh overall outside of a KoS, or maxed Daemonettes in revellers (which is shockingly poor in my estimation). I've even tried 20 man Seeker units and they are still kind of disappointing. Its the double fight that does the dmg, and that mechanic has room to interact. Its not a second pile-in. There needs to be an enemy unit with 3" for the Cmd ability to even work, so you don't get a 3" pile-in and 1" reach fight. I've watched Wrathmongers make 1 or 2 too many saves and lost a KoS. The book is all honest dmg, heaven forbid you come up against a Nurgle horde with multiple harbingers.

People can say but Whispersofblood, not all factions have those rules. But every faction you can use chaff, and spacing. I'm fairly certain there are two big problems with HoS. No one actually knows what is in the book, besides about half the players who actually play HoS. And, casual players are incredibly resistant to changing their perception of the game and their army builds.

You can pull some juicy stuff by throwing up a line of sacrificial chaff and keeping the heavy hitters 4" back so they can't be reached, then on your turn charge into the keeper that got caught up in the chaff, sure there's thermal rider cloak but considering the base size on the keeper you just gotta space enough of your backline out to zone out the keeper from having anywhere to land that isn't in the chaff. Besides doesn't matter how many daemons i summon when fyreslayers don't take any wounds lol. 

[Kitsumy]

3 hours ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

It’s comical how there’s a thread about slaanesh summoning like it’s the only broke thing in the game.... what about Fyreslayers with +2 save and a ++4 ward. So one army brings back what you kill (ish) and the other can’t be killed. 

Theres always broken builds. Dok held that throne for a good while, then fec and skaven. These 3 have been ‘nerfed’ and they’re pretty much just as powerful. 

The next 4 battletomes will counter slaanesh, and FS... and the power creep will continue. 

Yes heartguard bersekers are as broken as slanesh. No doubt there.

 

U said it. Dok. Fec.skaven.lon dominated before. And tell me what happened to them????

 

All they got some nerfs since they were OVERpowers. Same thing will happen to slanesh i guarante u. Despite people triying to defend them.

 

Fact is. They are dominating absurdly tournaments even more than old fec. So u guys can rejoice for 5 months till next rebalance of points when they will bring slanesh in line with the remaining tomes.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Kitsumy

[Dead Scribe]

Fact is. They are dominating absurdly tournaments even more than old fec. So u guys can rejoice for 5 months till next rebalance of points when they will bring slanesh in line with the remaining tomes.

Yep.  And then something else will be busted and we will sell our slaanesh armies and pick those armies up instead

[prochuvi]

5 hours ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

It’s comical how there’s a thread about slaanesh summoning like it’s the only broke thing in the game.... what about Fyreslayers with +2 save and a ++4 ward. So one army brings back what you kill (ish) and the other can’t be killed. 

Theres always broken builds. Dok held that throne for a good while, then fec and skaven. These 3 have been ‘nerfed’ and they’re pretty much just as powerful. 

The next 4 battletomes will counter slaanesh, and FS... and the power creep will continue. 

Yes fyreslayers are op and are inmortall.....but the datas show that fyreslayer have won 1!!!!!!(that they didnt win,they ranked 3-4 on killing and objetives,only due to paint points and players behavious they finished 1)tournament.

In the same time slanesh have won 4 tournaments,so it is easy to see how fyreslayers are VERY easy to counter and only noobs loose against them,but slanesh have zero counterplay and are easy to play so they are the best army rigth now

[whispersofblood]

7 hours ago, prochuvi said:

tYes fyreslayers are op and are inmortall.....but the datas show that fyreslayer have won 1!!!!!!(that they didnt win,they ranked 3-4 on killing and objetives,only due to paint points and players behavious they finished 1)tournament.

In the same time slanesh have won 4 tournaments,so it is easy to see how fyreslayers are VERY easy to counter and only noobs loose against them,but slanesh have zero counterplay and are easy to play so they are the best army rigth now

No one knows what you mean by counter play. Several posters have outlined exactly how you interact with HoS, and yet you continue with this nonsense. Counter play is not limited to rolling dice at someone else's dice.

@Kitsumy What does winning tournaments mean as a vector of analysis? Who won these events, what sorts of results did those players have using other books? What was their strength of schedule? If a faction is both good and popular (one does not mean it has to lead to the other) it will over represent at tournaments. 

 

Edited August 8, 2019 by whispersofblood

[Kasper]

From personal experience I have seen a fair few local Slaanesh players that calculate Depravity Points completely wrong, like ignoring the fact "abilities" on warscrolls don't contribute. This could lead to some insane games that aren't following the correct rules and will obviously result in way too many DP being generated.

People also seem to only talk about the best-case-scenario for DP generation (fighting multiple wound models with little to no shooting/magic), and completely ignore the situations where the Slaanesh player is starved all game and almost all the DP is purely from taking damage (almost entirely 1 wound army with high shooting/magic). Simply increasing the amount of points needed to summon a Keeper etc. would just add to the already bad matchups.

[Overread]

7 minutes ago, Kasper said:

People also seem to only talk about the best-case-scenario for DP generation (fighting multiple wound models with little to no shooting/magic), and completely ignore the situations where the Slaanesh player is starved all game and almost all the DP is purely from taking damage (almost entirely 1 wound army with high shooting/magic). Simply increasing the amount of points needed to summon a Keeper etc. would just add to the already bad matchups.

I think talking about best case generation situations is important because that's where the mechanic breaks. Against a single wound ranged army Slaanesh has far less option to generate depravity, though it does highlight the added pressure on bringing more keepers for those large hit points values. 

 

Also it shows how much of a swing the depravity is to generate at present whereby specific matchups can have a dramatic effect on how powerful the summoning is. In theory the summoning should be fairly even no matter what the Slaanesh player fights against. Otherwise you end up in situations where specific armies have to build specific counter-slaanesh forces to have a fair/even game and where generic armies end up having huge problems against them. For wargames you want to have balanced army battles rather than huge swings because you can't play "best of three" and bring in a sideboard to counter. You might get one game a week so if you bring your stormcast close combat army and the slaanesh player then trumps you hard its no fun. 

In the end I think its clear that, for many, depravity generation has issues. Both in how much the slaanesh player can already generate, but also for Slaanesh as an army in how it forces the players hand down one or two specific army builds and if not invalidates, at least makes far less viable, a wide range of other build approaches. 

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

I think talking about best case generation situations is important because that's where the mechanic breaks. Against a single wound ranged army Slaanesh has far less option to generate depravity, though it does highlight the added pressure on bringing more keepers for those large hit points values.

It is absolutely important to talk about the best-case, but suggesting changes based on the very base-case isn't the solution when it will just ****** on your average game as a Slaanesh player. The worst-case is also important, but everyone seems to ignore it. Slaanesh summoning is so reliant on the army you face, where as most other summon abilities don't really care.

I would much rather have the DP generation be somewhat normalized so it is reliable in all of my games, rather than the current situation where Im able to summon multiple Keepers in one game, and 10 Daemonettes max in the next game. This isn't enjoyable for me, and it is often not an ability I can rely on at all. I guess maybe my local is more dominated by 1 wound model armies, but it isn't often I get to generate the insane numbers you see people throwing around.

Edited August 8, 2019 by Kasper

[whispersofblood]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

I think talking about best case generation situations is important because that's where the mechanic breaks. Against a single wound ranged army Slaanesh has far less option to generate depravity, though it does highlight the added pressure on bringing more keepers for those large hit points values. 

 

Also it shows how much of a swing the depravity is to generate at present whereby specific matchups can have a dramatic effect on how powerful the summoning is. In theory the summoning should be fairly even no matter what the Slaanesh player fights against. Otherwise you end up in situations where specific armies have to build specific counter-slaanesh forces to have a fair/even game and where generic armies end up having huge problems against them. For wargames you want to have balanced army battles rather than huge swings because you can't play "best of three" and bring in a sideboard to counter. You might get one game a week so if you bring your stormcast close combat army and the slaanesh player then trumps you hard its no fun. 

In the end I think its clear that, for many, depravity generation has issues. Both in how much the slaanesh player can already generate, but also for Slaanesh as an army in how it forces the players hand down one or two specific army builds and if not invalidates, at least makes far less viable, a wide range of other build approaches. 

Ok but you are conflating two situations that have different solutions. In the store gaming scenario or one off garage hammer, you are always building against your friend, and seeking advice against your friend. In your SCE v HoS match up the SCE player is going to trend towards including more shooting units, more board control units or accept that they are choosing the most difficult path to playing against their buddy. And, as the SCE player takes more shooting, and more control units the HoS will have to adapt by putting more of a in-game emphasis on units that aren't as vulnerable to shooting and changing their reliance on Depravity generation and spend. 

In the context of playing a series of games with one list, you as a player are making meta calls. If you think you are going to run into a ton of DoK then you are probably screwed as a HoS player. Its not just because you don't generate DP off of single wound models, its because depravity is your method primary method of defence followed by Locus of Diversion. If you expect to repeatedly run into situations where those tools don't work you are out of luck, just like any faction who's tools don't work in a match up. Now you can mitigate this by focusing on objective play and trading and I've done this with many armies. But, it definitely will have a last of the Mahicans vibe.  AoS doesn't have a table wipe win condition, all that matters is points on the board.

Again the variance in DP generation is a feature not a bug in the list design. 

Half of this discussion is like watching people charge their whole army into a 30 hearth guard, when they control 5 of 6 objectives, and then after the match hearing them complain about HGB being broken. There really seems to be a market for strategic rather than tactical battle reports at the moment. We don't have a 120 hagg narr witch meta where some army has more models, more board control, more power and more defence than almost every army. 

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

2 hours ago, Overread said:

In the end I think its clear that, for many, depravity generation has issues. Both in how much the slaanesh player can already generate, but also for Slaanesh as an army in how it forces the players hand down one or two specific army builds and if not invalidates, at least makes far less viable, a wide range of other build approaches. 

Considering the number of armies present in the game and the fact that each has to be at least somewhat unique, It becomes pretty hard to make lists that can compete against every other list you might see in a span of 5 games whether that be in a GT or at a lfgs. Yeah a melee stormcast list will probably lose if it just throws itself at most slaanesh lists but shootcast will beat slaanesh black and blue. And there are armies that won't do well against that melee stormcast list but can stomp shootcast. You can try to build a swiss army knife list but in the end the performance of lists like that come down to how skilled the player is.  If you wanted a game where any list has a fair chance against any other list, this game just ain't it. You'd have to either overhaul the core rules or cut down on the number of armies to cut down on the need for unique mechanics. If you do want a game that promotes balanced list building and play I'd recommend Infinity, pretty fun and great for when I want a smaller game than AoS.

[NurglesFirstChosen]

13 hours ago, prochuvi said:

Yes fyreslayers are op and are inmortall.....but the datas show that fyreslayer have won 1!!!!!!(that they didnt win,they ranked 3-4 on killing and objetives,only due to paint points and players behavious they finished 1)tournament.

In the same time slanesh have won 4 tournaments,so it is easy to see how fyreslayers are VERY easy to counter and only noobs loose against them,but slanesh have zero counterplay and are easy to play so they are the best army rigth now

Only noobs lose against them. 

 

13 hours ago, prochuvi said:

Yes fyreslayers are op and are inmortall.....but the datas show that fyreslayer have won 1!!!!!!(that they didnt win,they ranked 3-4 on killing and objetives,only due to paint points and players behavious they finished 1)tournament.

In the same time slanesh have won 4 tournaments,so it is easy to see how fyreslayers are VERY easy to counter and only noobs loose against them,but slanesh have zero counterplay and are easy to play so they are the best army rigth now

 

13 hours ago, prochuvi said:

Yes fyreslayers are op and are inmortall.....but the datas show that fyreslayer have won 1!!!!!!(that they didnt win,they ranked 3-4 on killing and objetives,only due to paint points and players behavious they finished 1)tournament.

In the same time slanesh have won 4 tournaments,so it is easy to see how fyreslayers are VERY easy to counter and only noobs loose against them,but slanesh have zero counterplay and are easy to play so they are the best army rigth now

Only noobs lose against them.... I don’t want to come across as harsh but you’re response is short sighted, ignorant and insulting to anyone who has ever been beaten by them. 

Please note different match ups and player skill go a long way into deciding games - not just the army itself.