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General Hobby Chatter!

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10 minutes ago, VBS said:

Longbeard grumble grumble!

nah I totally agree (though actually that probably doesn't help fend of any accusations of longbeard grumbling...).

I absolutely love all the new scenery kits that GW are bringing out, they look fantastic and they're a joy to build, paint and play with. My only concern is that as you say it could have a, hopefully, unintended effect of stopping people from creating their own scenery and embracing part of the hobby that should be a fundamental pillar of it, is just a lot of fun and a really great way of building up your modelling skills.

One of the few things I've found slightly disconcerting over the past couple of years as I've got back into the hobby is how top down it feels like it's become. And oddly it doesn't exactly feel like that its been driven, entirely, by GW itself.

Quite often, to me at least, it does feels like the fanbase more and more wants everything to be 100% codified and official even when that's not to their financial benefit or enjoyment of the game. There was someone the other day (apologies my memory's a mess at the moment) saying that his group were getting angsty and refusing to play if they laid out the Warcry scenery in a way that even slightly diverged from the official scenery cards.

Come on people, live a little!

I guess it's a side effect of more people playing in spaces like shops where everything is provided for them and it can be hard to see how those could be golden handcuffs you're happily snapping around your wrists.

I love the idea of wargame tables covered in hills, marshes and rivers and all sorts of natural things that both make a game more interesting, both visually and tactically, ESPECIALLY in a game where you're not trying to move large rank and file blocks through it all. But those kind of mundane, natural things don't really make sense for GW to produce as it is , so if they don't produce them there's no official rules for them, if there's no official rules for them then it feels like they effectively cease to exist.

A shame, but there you have it.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

The DIY attitude is alive and well - it's just changed forms a bit.  This is especially true for Star Wars Legion.  That community had taken to 3D printing their own terrain like no other game community I have ever seen.  Things like wrecked TIE fighters or tipped-over AT-AT's are being printed and file-shared all over the place.  It's pretty encouraging, actually.  Do yourself a favor and check out the Star Wars Legion Terrain Builders Facebook group.  Cool stuff.

I hope you're right, that does all sound cool. Maybe a 3D printer is the ridiculously unnecessary thing I need to somehow convince my wife we really need in our lives... would probably need one big enough to print her a horse unfortunately but...

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I started wargaming... well it's kinda hard to put an exact number on it. See, my first models (I can remember) were a couple of metal goblins from some random game that I got at a convention which my dad took me to when I was around 5. I went to tons of conventions back then I guess, I don't remember them but there is pictures of me looking at giant LOTR and historical battles being set up.

I mostly played with LEGOS for a long time, and read tons of books, which helped lead me towards imagination based games. 

Fast forward to 7th grade I think, and I start playing Warmachine and Hordes with my dad. I didn't paint to much, but enjoyed playing. I have a decent collection of Trollbloods (collecting dust for the last 3 years). I also joined an Iron Kingdoms RPG group like half a year. I started playing warmahordes with some friends from school as well, and started painted consistently finally. Then 3rd Edition (i think) came out and all the sudden only the new models were any good.

My dad and I saw the stormstrike box (the liberators, retributors and khorne warriors one) and split it to try a new game. We then got to 2 player starter and were hooked. I think this was right before the Generals Handbook was first released. The games were rather one sided, as the khorne were super underpowered, but fun nonetheless. We play mostly narrative or pick up games at home and at the local game store. Since then I have grown to love painting more than playing, even though games are great too, and am super lucky to be able to borrow paints from my dad when I need them. I have collected some dwarves and tons of goblins now as well. I have also picked up some Skull Pass dwarves, which are almost as old as I am, which are a future project once I finish up some grots. I also started playing actual D&D with my family (my dad runs it) set in the mortal realms. I'm not smart enough to figure out to mix text and images so I'll caption them at the bottom. 

1. First 2 minis ever. Not sure what game, a couple of goblin musicians, if anyone knows please tell me. They still have the paint I gave them when I was 5. 

2. Trolls from Hordes. One on the left was the first one I ever completed, right is the most detailed/recent one I did. 

3. Gorak Longstrike, Pygmy Rifleman, my first ever RPG character. He was painted by my dad. What I lacked in roleplaying ability I made up in choosing the biggest gun he could carry and making him a killer shot. He might have been compensating for something, but who knows. 

4. First stormcast on the left, best/most recent on the right. 

5. Some of by Grots, who go by the name the 'Bloodmoonz' . They are known for red-tinted robes, a powerful loonboss and varied color in their squigs. 

6. Some Warcry models I painted. All my Iron Golem were converted to have demonblades which in my backstory for them they forge. 

7. Finally Gha (short for some long old world elven name I got from messing with a name generator) he is a reskin of one of the PCs for the D&D starter set for the mortal realms. He is an aelven wizard who worships Teclis as the God of Knowledge and is attempting to find study Teclis's creations, of which he is almost completely unaware, but he knows that Teclis left Gha's people to do something. 

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Edited by Pariah
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4 hours ago, JPjr said:

wants everything to be 100% codified and official

I'm definitely one of those people! Full disclosure I started playing in May 2018, so also relatively new.  I love rules, and I love when the rules are decided by the people in charge of balancing the game (truly, for better or worse), instead of the absolute anarchy of every tournament and LGS having their own house rules. To make a weird analogy, you know how McDonalds tastes basically the same everywhere you go? That's what I would want for AoS tournaments.  A single, codified, final outline and rules that everyone has to abide to so you know exactly what you are walking in to whether I drop in to a shop in Berlin or Toronto. Obviously there's a ton of historical baggage that stops that from being the case but a man can dream!

(This is not a put down to people who disagree, and I'm sorry if it reads that way.  Just my personal pipe dream).

Edited by relic456
Edit: For clarity, I'm talking standardized competitive formats. I'm totally fine with fluffy narrative tournaments and what not, but I think there should be one competitive standard.

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4 minutes ago, relic456 said:

. To make a weird analogy, you know how McDonalds tastes basically the same everywhere you go? That's what I would want for AoS tournaments.  A single, codified, final outline and rules that everyone has to abide to so you know exactly what you are walking in to whether I drop in to a shop in Berlin or Toronto.

So you basically want the Steamroller Tournament rules that Privateer Press uses for Warmachine.

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5 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

So you basically want the Steamroller Tournament rules that Privateer Press uses for Warmachine.

Maybe! I just pulled up the PDF and skimmed it since I'm at work and I'm not familiar at all with Warmachine, but I like the terrain and TO/EO sections. And Strength of Schedule and no soft scores 😍

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14 minutes ago, relic456 said:

Maybe! I just pulled up the PDF and skimmed it since I'm at work and I'm not familiar at all with Warmachine, but I like the terrain and TO/EO sections. And Strength of Schedule and no soft scores 😍

Yep, that's what you want, it sounds like.

The company makes the rules (updated each year for new missions, etc), and basically like 99 percent of tournaments in the world use them (because why wouldn't they?)

One thing they do is provide a list of variant rules in the packet.  So tournament organizers, if they want to do something a little different will just list the variant rules.  So if an upcoming tournament uses the Deathclock rules (Deathclock being one of the variant rules), then the tournament will be listed as "Steamroller Deathclock tournament" or something similar.  That way players can have access to all the potential rules in one spot.

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@mikethefish Maybe one day something similar will work its way in to AoS, like I said, a man can dream!

I also don't think my post contributes well enough to the topic so I'll add in some hobby stuff.  Currently working on finishing painting my last batch of Grimghast Reapers and heroes before I can tackle Arkhan and Reikenor (working from smallest models to largest).  After that I'll finally be able to start buying the Bonereapers without aggroing the wife!

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9 hours ago, mikethefish said:

Actually the DIY attitude for terrain creation is arguably bigger now than it was in the past, largely due to the advent of 3D printers.  More and more players are printing off some really cool and unique looking pieces that many would not have had the courage or wherewithal to even attempt a decade ago.  

The DIY attitude is alive and well - it's just changed forms a bit.  This is especially true for Star Wars Legion.  That community had taken to 3D printing their own terrain like no other game community I have ever seen.  Things like wrecked TIE fighters or tipped-over AT-AT's are being printed and file-shared all over the place.  It's pretty encouraging, actually.  Do yourself a favor and check out the Star Wars Legion Terrain Builders Facebook group.  Cool stuff.

Oh and PS - your game board looks pretty boss!

Thinking about it, I agree that it changed form. Not only with 3D printing but also on how it is transmitted. Companies will no longer publish books or "how to" guides as they will want to sell their own products. But with youtube, blogs, etc... there is an endless source of guides and tips which weren't possible 20 years ago. 3D printing flourishing is also a consequence of this, with all those sites that share files (or sell them).

It's basically exchanging crafting terrain using toothpicks and pva glue with designing terrain on programs to print on machines.  Must say that toothpicks, pva glue and getting your hands dirty does have an appeal and satisfaction feeling like no other :D Though I think 3D development still requires a few more years till it becomes more mainstream and  user friendly. The amount of technicalities to take into account when printing is a bit daunting, at least when I looked into it (not very tech-savvy, doh!).

The SW group has some super neat stuff! I'm all for people creating their own stuff, no matter the means, to improve the experience. Coz as mentions @JPjr, I do find it a bit discouraging how everything around the "wargaming hobby" seems so sterile, tight and controlled in some areas. Walking into a store and seeing the same 3 or 4 mats and straight out the box terrain feels sort of "empty", for a lack of a better word. Not to mention the abomination known as 2D terrain xD It's actually easier (and cheaper) than most think to build some decent terrain and a real board to exponentially increase the gaming experience quality, but it seems forgotten/avoided by many nowadays. I get that being spoon-fed is appealing to some, but it's shooting yourself in the foot. And for a hobby that is supposed to promote art, crafting skills and spark the imagination in every way, it's a bit of a shame.

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@VBS @JPjr I've found my people ;)

I totally agree that the "top down" approach has really taken off, personnally I'm not a big fan of it. It seems like a bunch of people at games workshop are trying to remind people as much as possible that they can have fun and do whatever they want. But there's a weird dichotomy too because of the lack of DIY features in White Dwarf and official books, pictures with 99% official terrain and such. Probably a mix of their commercial strategy and actual expectations from lots of players to have an official line on everything. With internet the communities are less local and people do have that McDonald's expectation of finding the same game everywhere. That said the internet also helps connecting with AoS28 communities and such, that are all about personalizing.

Regarding terrain, I completely agree that plastic terrain on battlemats look very sterile. Just a bit of basing can do so much to blend everything in!
@VBS if you want some good DIY resources I suggest youtube channels like Mel the terrain tutor or Miscast Terrain. Whereas building your own terrain used to be the norm, it's more like an extra hobby now. But there's still a lot going on :)

@relic456 I see we have different expectations and that's cool. I hope AoS can stay that weird cross between international fast food and home cooked burgers haha. I actually wish that GW would give more examples of house rules and such to give Narrative / Open Play the same legitimacy and inspire players interested in that approach.

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My army actually started as a Mordheim Warband. While I built the miniatures, I realized that I almost got enough minis for a 1000 points game in my hands 😄

So now I am sitting on 1500 Points of almost painted Ogors. Still haven’t played a single game, but enjoying it nonetheless. Now with the new book, anything can happen...😊

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1 hour ago, Moldek said:

@VBS @JPjr I've found my people ;)

I totally agree that the "top down" approach has really taken off, personnally I'm not a big fan of it. It seems like a bunch of people at games workshop are trying to remind people as much as possible that they can have fun and do whatever they want. But there's a weird dichotomy too because of the lack of DIY features in White Dwarf and official books, pictures with 99% official terrain and such. Probably a mix of their commercial strategy and actual expectations from lots of players to have an official line on everything. With internet the communities are less local and people do have that McDonald's expectation of finding the same game everywhere. That said the internet also helps connecting with AoS28 communities and such, that are all about personalizing.

Regarding terrain, I completely agree that plastic terrain on battlemats look very sterile. Just a bit of basing can do so much to blend everything in!
@VBS if you want some good DIY resources I suggest youtube channels like Mel the terrain tutor or Miscast Terrain. Whereas building your own terrain used to be the norm, it's more like an extra hobby now. But there's still a lot going on :)

@relic456 I see we have different expectations and that's cool. I hope AoS can stay that weird cross between international fast food and home cooked burgers haha. I actually wish that GW would give more examples of house rules and such to give Narrative / Open Play the same legitimacy and inspire players interested in that approach.

I do wonder if some of this is down to what your "gateway" into the game is. A lot of people don't start out as wargamers, but play board and card games, RPGs, or increasingly, computer games, and then decide to branch out into wargaming as well. However every genre has a different philosophy to how games should be played.

I come from a roleplaying background, and I feel like RPGs and older wargames all have a very DIY ethos. A good RPG isn't a prescribed game which you play the same way every time. It is a flexible toolbox that lets you play whatever game you want to play. Early GW evolved out of that ethos, and also built on all of the very creative wargame scene from which RPGs emerged in turn. From what I've read about the 70's historical scene, it was all about building cool stuff, customising games, and using different games together in the same campaigns to create  a weird but immersive experience. Or that is the elements of the scene that still get recounted fifty years later anyway.

Other games are a lot more prescriptive though. Not all board games can be houseruled, and even if they can, most people seem to play the game they are given. On the whole you don't pick up ticket to ride, and say, wouldn't it be cool if we added space ships as well as trains!

Card games like Magic have prescribed ways to play, and lists of banned cards. It is very much a top down approach, and it seems as though the community are very much beholden to WoTC for how the game will play.

But the biggest thing I think is probably Video Games, because the market for them is bigger than all of our tabletop games combined. I know that there are modders who create custom content for video games, but they aren't anywhere near as flexible or customisible as tabletop games, because by their very nature you need to computer to adjudicate everything. If you want to change the rules you need to be able to code it in. I get the impression that for a lot of games the idea that you can do something beyond what the engine says you can do is just not a "thing". Or if it is, its a case of "wouldn't it be cool if we made our own game where it works in this different, prescribed way".

I wonder if people thus bring these sorts of expectations with them. Old school gamers, and people with RPG backgrounds want to be able to convert and kitbash, make our own stuff and do things our own way. Tournament Starcraft players expect a solid, functioning system which is going to be working the same however you play it, and aspire to the mythical concept of balance, and so on.

I may be completely wrong, and there are exceptions to every rule, but its interesting to speculate at any rate!

 

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6 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

I do wonder if some of this is down to what your "gateway" into the game is. A lot of people don't start out as wargamers, but play board and card games, RPGs, or increasingly, computer games, and then decide to branch out into wargaming as well. However every genre has a different philosophy to how games should be played.

I come from a roleplaying background, and I feel like RPGs and older wargames all have a very DIY ethos. A good RPG isn't a prescribed game which you play the same way every time. It is a flexible toolbox that lets you play whatever game you want to play. Early GW evolved out of that ethos, and also built on all of the very creative wargame scene from which RPGs emerged in turn. From what I've read about the 70's historical scene, it was all about building cool stuff, customising games, and using different games together in the same campaigns to create  a weird but immersive experience. Or that is the elements of the scene that still get recounted fifty years later anyway.

Other games are a lot more prescriptive though. Not all board games can be houseruled, and even if they can, most people seem to play the game they are given. On the whole you don't pick up ticket to ride, and say, wouldn't it be cool if we added space ships as well as trains!

Card games like Magic have prescribed ways to play, and lists of banned cards. It is very much a top down approach, and it seems as though the community are very much beholden to WoTC for how the game will play.

But the biggest thing I think is probably Video Games, because the market for them is bigger than all of our tabletop games combined. I know that there are modders who create custom content for video games, but they aren't anywhere near as flexible or customisible as tabletop games, because by their very nature you need to computer to adjudicate everything. If you want to change the rules you need to be able to code it in. I get the impression that for a lot of games the idea that you can do something beyond what the engine says you can do is just not a "thing". Or if it is, its a case of "wouldn't it be cool if we made our own game where it works in this different, prescribed way".

I wonder if people thus bring these sorts of expectations with them. Old school gamers, and people with RPG backgrounds want to be able to convert and kitbash, make our own stuff and do things our own way. Tournament Starcraft players expect a solid, functioning system which is going to be working the same however you play it, and aspire to the mythical concept of balance, and so on.

I may be completely wrong, and there are exceptions to every rule, but its interesting to speculate at any rate!

 

Completely agree with you. I think especially video games are a big influence. I don't think expectations should be the same because physically playing with actual people is very different than being connected to a worldwide community that is all on the same playing field, constantly updated by the publisher. I also think the internet skews our perception of what's going on in the hobby, since you don't hear about all the people playing a campaign with their friends in their garage or small clubs having their houseruled tournaments.

I do think we need clear and usable rules out of the box, but I also find that a lot of people completely dismiss the idea of using the game as a toolbox to be "not real warhammer" 🙄

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I think you’re absolutely right. 

I myself come from a RPG background. What really fascinated me with AoS is not only the possibility, but the actual encouragement to play more open, scenario-based, even deliberately asymmetrical games. I do hope that they expand those ideas in the future.  So much to explore there: Sieges, suicide missions, last stands....  

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2 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

I think you’re absolutely right. 

I myself come from a RPG background. What really fascinated me with AoS is not only the possibility, but the actual encouragement to play more open, scenario-based, even deliberately asymmetrical games. I do hope that they expand those ideas in the future.  So much to explore there: Sieges, suicide missions, last stands....  

Precisely! I think that those "odd" not particularly balanced scenarios are the ones that have the most potential to generate an interesting story. But I can absolutely see why some players aren't fussed about creating a story, and just want a fair game to play, for the sake of playing a fair game.

We almost need a variety of the Indy RPG "Same Page Tool", where the GM circulates answers to a script of questions which define what their campaign is going to play like, so that players know what they are getting and are all on the same page.

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It’s slightly on a tangent but worth reading this interview that just went up with Chris Birch from Modiphius. It touches on a couple of things regarding more codified competitive vs narrative games and how that might play out in the near future in terms of game design.

http://tabletopgamesuk.co.uk/2019/11/01/modiphius-the-future/

whilst its more focused on RPGs/Dungeon Crawlers/board game type affairs it’s certainly easy to see how GW could really ramp up this side of games like Warcry.

I haven’t played the latest version of it but it seems Necromunda has a lot of this baked in and they’re pushing it further in that direction & it wouldn’t be hard at all to create proper solo or co-op modes for Warcry at all. 

 

Edited by JPjr
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Something like this exists already. It’s called Mordheim. 😊

I haven’t looked into Warcry all that seriously, but from what I saw it is way less open, with little focus on development of the heroes over the course of a campaign, than good ol’ Mordheim was.  

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Thanks @JPjr. Really good read. I agree  with author that competitive play is not a bad thing per se but focusing only on tournaments makes the game less appealing to non-competitve players. 

 

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@Beastmaster yeah Warcry is much more simplified than Mordheim, though I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing, I can totally see a space for both existing. I think Warcry can (and in fact will, officially or not) be expanded to deliver a more involved narrative experience, it's a good place to start though, fast, simple to get into, there's a simple but fun campaign system baked in so all good things to work and build from. 

In terms of co-op/solo play between the existing rules for chaotic beasts, the WD rules for 'wild Troggoths', the AI system in Blackstone Fortress and our own ideas and ingenuity it really shouldn't be hard to create a decent rule set for other game modes. I can easily picture a Warrcry game where you play against say a tribe of Gargants or a rampaging dragon. In fact I'd be amazed if we don't get something along those lines in WD in an issue or two, they've already done it for Underworlds after all.

Actually what I'd love, and this is something I might have a go at making myself in the spirit of DIY is some tiles like the Blackstone Fortress ones but fantasy'fied to use and create tunnel & cavern games for Warcry (obviously the other two AoS WH:Q games exist but the BSF tile system is much better I think).

I'd already tried using the BSF tiles for Kill Team before they published rules for that in WD so again it something I'm sure we'll see eventually but would be easy to do and a fun project to build (on a side note one of the things I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to do is get the license from GW to reprint all the different beyond beautiful 1980s Dungeon Floorplans but scaled up to reflect bigger models and on thicker card like BSF).

for those like @relic456 who do want something much tighter for 'competitive' play, I'm actually all for it as long as it's clearly positioned as such.

I think the whole 3 ways to play that they've been pushing the last few years is a great idea but I'm not sure it's exactly working right. in a way because they keep trying to move agency back to the players and I don't think, in some circles, its quite getting through. You see it in the way some people seem incredibly confused by what narrative or open play is or can be.

my personal, only barely thought through so entirely up for change, thought is really you just need two modes.

SANDBOX: basically everything from the basic rules up, including points, realm rules, weird experimental rules for terrain, narrative rules, streets of death, aerial games, cavern fighting etc etc etc. Absolutely everything with the caveat that you pick from all those options what kind of game you want, in fact it would be easy to produce a tick list that you can quickly go through and say ok, we're using x, y, z. Game on.

This gets rid of people getting, weirdly, confused when you for instance use points in a narrative game for example and also allows 'Sandbox mode' to almost be like an open test for crazy new ideas to get a ride out, some may last the course, others may be binned but it makes experimentation and trying new things part of the DNA. 

TOURNAMENT: A streamlined rules pack produced once a year (maybe updated after 6 months, like points are now), featuring just the select rules, expansions, realm rules in play etc that will be chosen in advance by GW and a committee of tournament organisers/players. This way it potentially stops the constant churn of meta chasers trying to keep up with every new thing and allows those who want to know exactly what they'll be facing for the next few months to do so in confidence.

Other bonus of this is that explicitly tying the release of each year's new rule pack with the start of a new 'season' would make it feel a little bit more like a proper sport for those that like to believe it is. You can easily see how you could build on that to really provide more structure for those that want it and build in some of the excitement that comes from 'seasons' building to a close.

Anyway I just typed up that nonsense as a stream of consciousness so probably a load of nonsense but I think there's some ideas there worth exploring (and probably already being done by a lot of people somewhere anyway).

Right I'm going to get back to paining this temple I've got on the go and have a think a bit more about creating some modular Warcry tunnels and caverns.

 

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ANYWAY talking of awesome scenery to play on, check these out. The, I guess some kind of, gargantual god beast skeleton is particularly awesome and inspiring (I might finally have to follow through with my plan to buy a 1980s Castle Greyskull toy and convert it into the centre piece of a Shyishian table).

More of this kind of thing!

 

 

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6 minutes ago, JPjr said:

SANDBOX: basically everything from the basic rules up, including points, realm rules, weird experimental rules for terrain, narrative rules, streets of death, aerial games, cavern fighting etc etc etc. Absolutely everything with the caveat that you pick from all those options what kind of game you want, in fact it would be easy to produce a tick list that you can quickly go through and say ok, we're using x, y, z. Game on.

That's basically Open - nothing that GW didn't already say. I don't think it will help people understand non-tournament games. I actually don't understand how someone can be confused about narrative and open play - for me the simplest way to describe them is "Wargame RPG". Maybe we should bring back Game Masters for AoS?

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Since some of you in this thread seem pretty experienced when it comes to custom terrain, I was wondering if you could give me some help/advice. I bought a bunch of balsa wood (plus some similar stuff for platforms that is a little more sturdy). I plan to build a fort for my goblins inspired by some of the stuff in the old skirmish book from the 90s I think.

I watched a couple videos about working with balsa wood but I'm still kinda lost. What tools should I use? Does the wood need sealed/treated with anything? Any other tips?  Thanks in advance.

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@JPjr I totally agree once again. Too bad we’re not neighbours as I think you and some of the people on this thread could form a gaming group tailored to my tastes ;)

I also agree with @michu that your (awesome) game mode idea won’t probably clear up any confusion. To some people hearing « narrative AoS » is like hearing « narrative poker » or « freeform boxing ». It just clashes completely with what the point of the game is to them. The only thing to do is for narrative players to stay active in communities, share our vision and remind people that it’s not all competitive.

@Pariah I haven’t worked much with balsa, but I’d advise either a mix of pva and acrylic craftpaint as a basecoat, or just seal with pva if you want to spray the base color. Although you should check other sources too!

@JPjr

the terrain looks cool, I actually bought a halloween decoration with the same idea :)

4D0B50D3-77F7-49F7-BFCD-89C4580688BC.jpeg

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@Pariah I mentioned this in another thread a while ago but some time ago I Kickstarted this...

the KS itself is finished but worth keeping an eye on it for when the book is ready next year as I'm sure there will be copies available for non-backers. More immediately Mel's YouTube channel itself is worth checking out too, sure you'll find lots of useful tips there to get you going on your goblin fort project

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Since I am quite new to this forum: Is there a thread here where creative home-brew battle plans can be presented and discussed; maybe even including actual battle reports of playing them? Should be the right format to encourage others getting  into a more experimental mindset, I would think.

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