Most powerful factions after GHB2019 & FAQs

[Enoby]

So, while I've seen a lot of talk around the most recent GHB not having quite as many changes as one would like, now the FAQs have come out and we've had a little bit of time to let the dust settle. So, which armies do you guys think are the most powerful in the current state of AoS? 

This isn't asked for any particular reason other than curiosity - I haven't seen any compiled tournament stats so far, so I'm aware that we can't base these observations on too much, but I think it's interesting nonetheless.    

[svnvaldez]

Give this a listen: Skaven, DoK, FEC, and Slaanesh are all contenders. KO, Fryeslayer, and others are on the rise.

Death has been hammered

http://podcast.justplaygames.uk/generals-handbook-2019-review-mega-episode

[PJetski]

My $0.02

Skaven, LON, FEC, and DOK were knocked down significantly. Khorne is looking much better now with cheaper Skull Cannons and Bloodthirster, as well as the changes to meta-warping Gristlegore Savage Strike. Ironjawz, Tzeentch, and Seraphon were significantly improved. Everything else pretty much stayed the same.

Stormcast deep strike builds (both melee + ballista drop) are much worse, but they still have double tap Longstrikes and Dracoths so they're relatively stronger than before.

Slaanesh is a very strong army in the right meta but it gets bullied hard by shooting armies and armies that spam 1 wound models. Unfortunately the  meta has lots of 1 wound models and armies that have multiwound models also tend to be the ones that shoot well.

I think the current top tier armies are Stormcast (Anvilstrike), Fyreslayers (both Hermdar LOTL & Lofnir Forge Brethren), and Seraphon (Thunderquake), followed by Skaven, FEC, Slaanesh, and DOK.

I'm still uncertain about Sylvaneth

Feel free to disagree

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by PJetski

[spenson]

I would actually switch tier 1 and tier 2. The nerf really only hurt DoK so maybe they're tier 2 now. LoN really took a hit (and poor nighthaunts that were already not that strong...).

I haven't read the new Sylvaneth book so I don't know yet where to put it.

I hope the new orruk battletome will make ironjawz and bonesplitterz tier 2 at least. Same for the gutbusters and BCR.

Edited July 30, 2019 by spenson

[jhamslam]

53 minutes ago, PJetski said:

My $0.02

Skaven, LON, FEC, and DOK were knocked down significantly. Khorne is looking much better now with cheaper Skull Cannons and Bloodthirster, as well as the changes to meta-warping Gristlegore Savage Strike. Ironjawz, Tzeentch, and Seraphon were significantly improved. Everything else pretty much stayed the same.

Stormcast deep strike builds (both melee + ballista drop) are much worse, but they still have double tap Longstrikes and Dracoths so they're relatively stronger than before.

Slaanesh is a very strong army in the right meta but it gets bullied hard by shooting armies and armies that spam 1 wound models. Unfortunately the  meta has lots of 1 wound models and armies that have multiwound models also tend to be the ones that shoot well.

I think the current top tier armies are Stormcast (Anvilstrike), Fyreslayers (both Hermdar LOTL & Lofnir Forge Brethren), and Seraphon (Thunderquake), followed by Skaven, FEC, Slaanesh, and DOK.

I'm still uncertain about Sylvaneth

Feel free to disagree

 

Huh This might be your personal experience but SCE are tier 1.5 to 2, being something of a powerfuly but again one trick pony. No battalions (playable ones atleast), no special artifacts (or extra artifacts) or special synergy beyond Anvils Shoot twice. Every "complete" feeling army i build with SCE comes out to 2300ish points. It feels like a "decent warscroll" army.

Skaven FeC and DoK are tier 1, the difference comes from good players vs bad. A good skaven player will ruin Anvil Strikes day.  FEC Blisterskin lists are also now the better ones imo but a lot of people bought into GG and are sticking with it

Edit: i saw the win rates for melee heavy and ballista heavy lists. Honestly i dont understand why they were nerfed given their win rates. My money is on people complaining and GW again doing no analysis beyond their FB survey to address the complaints over any serious balancing.

IMO people are gonna complain again because if they thought the ballista was oppressive, having their main heroes shot off in a single round by longstrikes is gonna ****** a lot of people off. And then we can have EVERYTHING overcosted in SCE

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by jhamslam
Added some more thoughts

[svnvaldez]

32 minutes ago, jhamslam said:

Huh This might be your personal experience but SCE are tier 1.5 to 2, being something of a powerfuly but again one trick pony. No battalions (playable ones atleast), no special artifacts (or extra artifacts) or special synergy beyond Anvils Shoot twice. Every "complete" feeling army i build with SCE comes out to 2300ish points. It feels like a "decent warscroll" army.

Yea everyone is going to have their opinion but there is no way this teir list isn't complete biased to this players local meta/experiances.  Directed at everyone - definately give legit podcasts of active tournament players a listen rather than just throwing out your own teir list.  Tournament players teir lists are by no means the end all be all but they are accurate to a .5 teir or so imo.

Here is the Justsaying Teir list before the FAQs and GH. Adjust up and down accordingly depending on your opinion post GH/FAQs

http://facehammer.co.uk/2019/07/13/episode-75-aos-6-nations-2019-and-round-table/

Second half of this facehammer episode talks about post change meta as well

Edited July 30, 2019 by svnvaldez

[Mutton]

Hasn't been long enough to tell much about the state of the meta. But there are two things I do know for certain:

Skaven units are still grossly undercosted. Slaanesh's summoning is broken.

[jhamslam]

2 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Hasn't been long enough to tell much about the state of the meta. But there are two things I do know for certain:

Skaven units are still grossly undercosted. Slaanesh's summoning is broken.

Id be fine with Stormvermin going down a bit more and plague monks going to 120 like WE. those rats are way too insane for all their re rolls and spamming MWs when die on anything that kills them.

 

[svnvaldez]

6 minutes ago, Mutton said:

Skaven units are still grossly undercosted. Slaanesh's summoning is broken.

Yes! broken is a strong word... but they are pretty bent lol

[Dervinus]

lol @ the guy with seraphon as tier 1. I wish buddy. 

[Chikout]

Slaanesh is very strong in a combat heavy meta. They are even weaker to shooting than the other combat armies though. If the cities of sigmar book has some good shooting options and if the the new death book does turn out to be a shooting army, we will see Slaanesh drop off a bit. Skaven have got very strong units in all areas. That book will continue to be top tier whatever happens to the meta. Ironjawz have been getting a few podiums recently. If the new book builds on the changes from the ghb and adds in a few bonesplittas shooting options they could well be right up there. Ko are definitely competitive again. 

I think we will see Slaanesh continue to win a lot of tournaments unless Ko start to come back in a bag way or the new books have good shooting. 

Under Slaanesh, skaven, DoK, KO, FeC, shootcast, Ironjawz, Fyreslayers legion of grief and Khorne all have solid chances of getting a podium.

[soak314]

4 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

Yes! broken is a strong word... but they are pretty bent lol

I've heard their book described as "a f***ing circus" and I think it's pretty apt!

[Skreech Verminking]

4 hours ago, jhamslam said:

Id be fine with Stormvermin going down a bit more and plague monks going to 120 like WE. those rats are way too insane for all their re rolls and spamming MWs when die on anything that kills them.

 

Well I won’t complain, about cheaper Stormvermins.

they’re always needed😂

as for Plague monks, yeah they probably need a slight increase.

but I’ll just wait and see how the meta lists of the skaven will change in the next grand events.

[kuroyume]

5 hours ago, jhamslam said:

Every "complete" feeling army i build with SCE comes out to 2300ish points.

Man that is so true it hurts. You try to build a solid SCE army with enough tools to not start the game on the back foot and you always come up two or three units above points limit. It gets even worse at 1000 points, the army is basically unplayable at that point.

[prochuvi]

Nothing have changued with the faq and gh.

 

Skavens,dok,fec and slanesh are the god tier yet.

Lon is very close to them and then the others 2.0 tomes as fyreslayers demons,idoneths etc

[PlasticCraic]

1 hour ago, prochuvi said:

Nothing have changued with the faq and gh.

I think that's an overstatement.  The very top armies were undernerfed (in my opinion), but some of the armies underneath that level got some help.

IJ probably jumped a tier and a half (from a low base), Gloomspite got a lot of help (competitive options like the Webspinner A-Rok got a points drop, and they have more useful generic CAs to spend all those CPs on), and the drops in Khorne were targetted at the stuff that was already the most competitive.

I definitely think they could and should have gone significantly further on some very low hanging fruit (Slaanesh summoning is way out whack, Plague Monks are still an absolute joke, WLV still exists).  But I also think it's fair to say the field has tightened up a bit too.

Edited July 31, 2019 by PlasticCraic

[Qaz]

FEC practically dropped out of the face of earth locally for me. WLV now has to be casted within unbind range to be effective.... 

Not so sure, it seems like Fyreslayers is the power faction here. Yet, they only place well, not win tournaments overwhelmingly. 

[Skreech Verminking]

22 minutes ago, Qaz said:

FEC practically dropped out of the face of earth locally for me. WLV now has to be casted within unbind range to be effective.... 

Not so sure, it seems like Fyreslayers is the power faction here. Yet, they only place well, not win tournaments overwhelmingly. 

Yeah, although the fyreslayers are strong and tough as steel, their greatest weakness is movement.

almost anything can literally outmaneuver easily, and with a bit of shooting, all of their key characters can easily be sniped out, denying  those significant I feel nothing buff on some units.

as for fec, I mean they aren’t as strong as they were before the faq arrived.

there were actually more than just a few armies that had problems dealing with gigantic monsters that always attack first, twice!.

I mean any combat army will literally struggle with them, when they basically have no way of defeating them without like 6inch pile in and attacking or don’t have any go first buff/go last debuff tricks.

with the well let’s say nerf, some players are at least able to attack a terrorgheist in the combat phase, when it is their own turn, without having to fear that their units gets killed of with one go.

but still I think they are still a very strong army that can gain some winning strokes with the right Strategie and movement.

So not sure why everybody in your area feels like dropping them.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[Qaz]

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So not sure why everybody in your area feels like dropping them.

No idea. They went back to Nagash . There's an influx of Slaneesh (and Ironjaws) armies though but despite the powerful summoning, not doing so great. 

[PJetski]

15 hours ago, jhamslam said:

Huh This might be your personal experience but SCE are tier 1.5 to 2, being something of a powerfuly but again one trick pony. No battalions (playable ones atleast), no special artifacts (or extra artifacts) or special synergy beyond Anvils Shoot twice. Every "complete" feeling army i build with SCE comes out to 2300ish points. It feels like a "decent warscroll" army.

Skaven FeC and DoK are tier 1, the difference comes from good players vs bad. A good skaven player will ruin Anvil Strikes day. 

I agree with all of your criticism about Stormcast. They have a terrible book full of downright garbage battalions, lackluster stormhosts, and awful artefacts. Despite all that, the power of Anvilstrike can't be denied. When it is built and played properly it is so oppressively strong that there seems to be no counter. I'm 32-0 with Anvilstrike so far this year at tournaments, and the meta has been packed full of the "top tier" armies like LON, DOK, HOS, Skaven, and FEC.

My Anvilstrike has no trouble beating Skaven, even before the point cost increases and WLV errata. Longstrikes outrange WLC and they have the advantage over Jezzails because they can be left in reserve and Stormcast teleport is more versatile than Gnawholes. I can't see how Skaven can beat that list.

7 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah, although the fyreslayers are strong and tough as steel, their greatest weakness is movement.

almost anything can literally outmaneuver easily, and with a bit of shooting, all of their key characters can easily be sniped out, denying  those significant I feel nothing buff on some units.

This has not been my experience at all. With just a handful (5-10) of Auric Hearthguard to soak wounds and the standard save bonuses, Fyreslayer heroes are very resilient against being sniped. Lots of people are using Forge Brethren battalion with Ignax's Scales to make a Magmadroth virtually unkillable, which makes battleplans like Duality of Death a breeze.

There is nothing in the game that can beat HGB in melee - 30 poleaxes with 2 attacks each doing mortal wounds on hit6, fighting first, and fighting twice is insane damage output.

Mobility and endless spell spam is their weakness but people are already starting to put in allies like Skywardens and Knight-Incantors to shore up those weaknesses.

 

FEC are still good but the change to Savage Strike is a huge blow to their defenses. I think people are going to adapt and either switch to Royal Mordant + Blisterskin for megamove flayers or Feast Day with +2 cast and ethereal/cogs combo.

15 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

  Directed at everyone - definately give legit podcasts of active tournament players a listen rather than just throwing out your own teir list.  Tournament players teir lists are by no means the end all be all but they are accurate to a .5 teir or so imo.

I'm #2 on ITC, does that make my opinion more relevant to you?

Edited July 31, 2019 by PJetski

[BaylorCorvette]

16 hours ago, spenson said:

 LoN really took a hit (and poor nighthaunts that were already not that strong...).

My buddy and I just started playing like a week before GHB19 came out. He plays NH and I play LoN. What were the huge blows to those armies? Dire Wolf & Grimghast point increase? Or am I missing something? Again, I just started playing so I very well could be ignorant to the nerfs, lol.

[HammerOfSigmar]

21 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

My buddy and I just started playing like a week before GHB19 came out. He plays NH and I play LoN. What were the huge blows to those armies? Dire Wolf & Grimghast point increase? Or am I missing something? Again, I just started playing so I very well could be ignorant to the nerfs, lol.

NH suffers from the increase of grimghast. LON suffers from several point increase, including nagash, arkhan, grimghast. grimghast increase is a pretty great blow since the 90 grimghast list might just be not possible anymore.

[El Syf]

19 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

My buddy and I just started playing like a week before GHB19 came out. He plays NH and I play LoN. What were the huge blows to those armies? Dire Wolf & Grimghast point increase? Or am I missing something? Again, I just started playing so I very well could be ignorant to the nerfs, lol.

Nagash and the spell portal also spring to mind.

Nagash went up 50 and the spell portal went up 40 I believe(?) That's another good chunk of points to spend on the same models, without any improvement on them. (I realize a lot of people moaned Nagash was too cheap beforehand, but I don't share that view.)

[BaylorCorvette]

1 minute ago, El Syf said:

Nagash and the spell portal also spring to mind.

Nagash went up 50 and the spell portal went up 40 I believe(?) That's another good chunk of points to spend on the same models, without any improvement on them. (I realize a lot of people moaned Nagash was too cheap beforehand, but I don't share that view.)

Ok thanks. Right now my buddy and I play 1k lists, so the Nagash thing wasn't a huge problem from me since he didn't fit in that list, but with the other points increases as well I can see 2k lists suffering. I'm just happy blood knights went down to 200 points.

[Forrix]

8 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah, although the fyreslayers are strong and tough as steel, their greatest weakness is movement.

almost anything can literally outmaneuver easily, and with a bit of shooting, all of their key characters can easily be sniped out, denying  those significant I feel nothing buff on some units.

Pretty much my and the other Fyreslayer player's experience in my local meta through replace shooting with fast flying units and magic. Fyreslayers are a high tier army for sure (especially for scenarios that don't have a lot of objectives) but only broken when people make up hypothetical lists that can't actually exist due to points limits and combining multiple lodge abilities.