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Still-young

Warcry - Ironjawz discussion

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1 hour ago, RaiderX said:

Unless you tell me you had a hard time recognize the models now because his club isn't spiky?

 

if a model isn't spikey enough and not covered in skulls its not warhammer. Common knowledge ;) 

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13 hours ago, RaiderX said:

Unless you tell me you had a hard time recognize the models now because his club isn't spiky?

To be clear, I'm talking about creating a "best state" where visual identification is as easy as possible not only to aid the player (who likely had some degree of familiarity with his force) but more importantly, to aid the opponent (who may have zero familiarity). Lots of my posts here follow that common theme: making sure my creative or interpretative choices don't negatively impact my opponent negatively.

I'm  NOT (OOPS!!! had to edit that in)trying to limit peoples'enjoyment or ability to make cool stuff.

There, now with that said, yeah, I suppose I'm sorta saying that (given that the only difference between some of the Orruk fighters in Warcry is that some have, for instance, two swords as compared to a sword and club or an axe) if you don't match up the weapons in the pictures on the abilities card to those on the models, then it seems a bit off to me - especially, again, because those weapon looks -are- the differentiator.

I wanna be super clear on this: I'm not going to wee in someone's cornflakes if they show up with inaccurate models. I'm just discussing it here, on a discussion forum, as is appropriate to do.

Edited by Sleboda
Critical missing "not"
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39 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Lots of my posts here follow that common theme: making sure my creative or interpretative choices don't negatively impact my opponent negatively.

I'm trying to limit peoples'enjoyment or ability to make cool stuff.

     Triple negative! Oh the pain! I don’t try to limit anyone’s enjoyment personally, well anyone except my kids.

     But seriously I’m not accusing you of trying to be a party pooper, just pointing out that in both RAW and RAI all four figures work in game. Bashas and Hackas are functionally identical in play; your options are: two handed weapon, dual weapons, weapon and shield, or leader with two weapons. Brutes are slightly more diverse. 

     Does anyone have a standard ardboy they could post a size comparison of with a brute and one of the shadespire Ardboyz? I don’t have any standard Ardboyz but have noticed the Ironskullz boys are actually about the same size as the brutes and want to see the comparison. Are the old black Orcs the same size as the brutes or slightly smaller like the old green skin Orcs?

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So you wouldn't stop someone from playing with their models in-game, but still have an issue with it? Whats the point of the issue then lol. Might as well not mention it.

Warcry is like AoS Mordheim or Killteam, its all about the individualized warband and conversions. Who gives a ****** if the model isn't in the same pose or whatever as it is on the card? Theres like 8 models or less in an Ironjawz warband anyways, just ask if its unclear.

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     Thanks @Ergonomic Cat, yeah it definitely looks like Gurzag and his boys are both a little taller and beefier than the standard ardboy; who are in turn a little beefier than the greenskins. 

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Honestly with the visual differences in some warbands literally being a bit of tin taped to a leg (Corvus Cabal ) i think the  shadespire bands are pretty clear as to what they are.  Visual clarity is an iffy thing in this game as it is. i played a few games as lon and watching my opponents struggle to tell one skeleton from another was bad enough that I'm converting some chaos warriors into grave guard just for easy ID.  The  IJ warbands about as clear as they get.

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1 hour ago, Deepkin said:

So you wouldn't stop someone from playing with their models in-game, but still have an issue with it? Whats the point of the issue then lol. Might as well not mention it.

 

I made it pretty clear why. Multiple times in the thread. It's about working out things on a forum, trying to create an ideal situation,  and being as considerate to an opponent as possible. Sure, if I were totally me-centric and only ever had people play against me with these models, there would be no point. However, I'm working toward a community consensus, and, I suppose, saying the I'd never put it on my opponents to expect them to deal with inaccurate models. After 30+ years in this hobby, I've seen and experienced far, far too many instances of form over function getting in the way of clarity and courtesy to an opponent. I never, ever want to be the one to upset an opponent or win a game against them because I let me creative juices interfere with their ability to recognize a model and react to it accordingly.

Short version: It's about trying to help us all be more courteous to our opponents.

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Its a hobby first and foremost. I can't imagine what sort of player would ever make this an issue. Conversions and creative minis are part and parcel of the hobby, this is such a foreign issue to me that I question what people youre playing with if this is an issue you frequently encounter. Because it sounds like an awfully stressful environment if this is something you actively worry about.

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4 hours ago, Deepkin said:

Its a hobby first and foremost. I can't imagine what sort of player would ever make this an issue. Conversions and creative minis are part and parcel of the hobby, this is such a foreign issue to me that I question what people youre playing with if this is an issue you frequently encounter. 

It definitely is a hobby.  For sure. Collecting, modeling, painting, gaming. That's a pretty great hobby! The thing is, all those matter.  Not just one part.  Gaming is part of it, and the game has rules, and those rules are tied to models. For me, painting is the best part of the hobby, with gaming second, collecting third, and modeling last (but not unimportant - just last in my list). I don't think it's fair to denigrate others who prioritize things differently (for instance, implying with "what sort of person").
 

It appears you put modeling very high up on the list.  Lots of folks do, and that's awesome! That doesn't mean that someone who wants to ensure the rules are played accurately and that the models on the table reflect the rules is any lesser of a hobbyist. I'm saying that we can work together as a community to blend all the elements of the hobby for the betterment of the experience. Convert models! Go for it! Just maybe make sure that the conversions don't interfere with the gaming/rules part of it.

And speaking of conversions, why not apply those hobby skills to making very, very simple weapon swaps on da boyz to make them better reflect the standard appearance? The modeler gets to model, and the gamer gets a more consistent rules experience. Win-win! :)

 

 

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What are we even arguing here about? @Sleboda are you saying that in order to field an Ardboy as the Choppa and Smasha version you need to have one sword-like weapon and one mace-like weapon in order not to confuse the opponent?

I'm guessing you haven't played against/with Ironjawz in AoS? There is no stat difference at all between the mace-like, the axe-like and the sword-like weapons for Ardboys. The only difference is the two-handed weapons (of which there are also axe-like and mace-like versions), which are also separaten in Warcry.

I think the only model where you could get confused is the boss, since the weapon configuration is quite similar to the Choppa and Smasha Ardboy, especially considering Gurzag from the Shadespire warband. Even then, Gurzag has a very distinctive fur cloak over his shoulders, and the Ardboy kit Boss is usually modeled with the huge axe-like choppa and without a helmet.

 

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11 minutes ago, tom_gore said:

What are we even arguing here about? @Sleboda are you saying that in order to field an Ardboy as the Choppa and Smasha version you need to have one sword-like weapon and one mace-like weapon in order not to confuse the opponent?

I'm guessing you haven't played against/with Ironjawz in AoS?

I'm suggesting that's the ideal to which we might try to aspire, yes. Minimal confusion is not really a bad goal, is it? Being considerate to our opponents as much as possible? I'm really not seeing why my general idea of putting the other person over your self is such met with such resistance.

I've not played against or with (yet!) Ironjaws in AoS, but that's not relevant. This is Warcry. Same setting, utterly different game. I don't think veteran AoS experiences have any impact here. Besides, what about new players who don't have that experiential knowledge? Isn't it even more incumbent upon us, as veterans, to ensure that new players encounter as few obstacles as possible? It does no good to get a new person in, game against them, have them go after the wrong models on the table, get beat because they didn't recognize the model for what it was, and then quit because they felt like the game was too confusing or frustrating. We should endeavor to make the game as conflict/confusion-free as possible, shouldn't we?

Again, why is trying to be as nice as possible to our opponent seen as a bad thing?

 

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The whole discussion/topic of shadespire guys not being exact seems pedantic and a non issue to me. It seems fairly obvious to me as a new player that Ardboys are either  duel wield, 2-handed or shield I don’t know who would be confused beyond that, and even if they where that quick summary would suffice.  Those are my thought personally having just read through all the posts.

I’d much rather have read something about people’s experiences playing IJ in game with different warbands configs or shield/hammer/dagger configurations. 

For instance I’m building some brutes now so I haven’t gotten to play them yet and mostly just wanted to paint them but I’m thinking of doing 3 brutes 3 Ardboys (from shadespire) 

What do you all think is the extra body worth not just going 5 brutes?

i was thinking brute boss with big Choppa 

the brute gore Hakka and a duel wield brute and the 2 duel wield Ardboys and a big Choppa Ardboys. From what I can tell reading around this seems an okay warband? 

 

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1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

I'm suggesting that's the ideal to which we might try to aspire, yes. Minimal confusion is not really a bad goal, is it? Being considerate to our opponents as much as possible? I'm really not seeing why my general idea of putting the other person over your self is such met with such resistance.

I've not played against or with (yet!) Ironjaws in AoS, but that's not relevant. This is Warcry. Same setting, utterly different game. I don't think veteran AoS experiences have any impact here. Besides, what about new players who don't have that experiential knowledge? Isn't it even more incumbent upon us, as veterans, to ensure that new players encounter as few obstacles as possible? It does no good to get a new person in, game against them, have them go after the wrong models on the table, get beat because they didn't recognize the model for what it was, and then quit because they felt like the game was too confusing or frustrating. We should endeavor to make the game as conflict/confusion-free as possible, shouldn't we?

Again, why is trying to be as nice as possible to our opponent seen as a bad thing?

 

You also have to consider many people have loads of AoS miniatures lying around. With your "guidelines" they would be unable to field many of them. Heck, if someone had modeled their dual-wielding Ardboys with dual axes, dual maces and dual swords, he would be unable to field any of them!

WYSIWYG is an admirable goal, but you're taking it a level too far. I have a very hard time believing any new player would be confused about the version of Ardboys each of the Shadespire models would be representing. Much less the actual Ardboys miniatures that would be wielding dual maces, for example.

 

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13 hours ago, Sleboda said:

There, now with that said, yeah, I suppose I'm sorta saying that (given that the only difference between some of the Orruk fighters in Warcry is that some have, for instance, two swords as compared to a sword and club or an axe) if you don't match up the weapons in the pictures on the abilities card to those on the models, then it seems a bit off to me - especially, again, because those weapon looks -are- the differentiator.

I don't even see why is this a problem, a club/axe/stick/bone blub/blade/sword/knife/chicken leg/drumstick/guitar... all function exactly the same for Ardboys. The only things matter is it's a 1-handed weapon or 2-handed weapons. This isn't only Ironskull Boyz things, this is Orruk/Ork in general, they usually have lots of different flavor of weapons.

This is the normal Ardboys weapon's choice, as I already told you, you see blade, club, axe,...

992a70f0-6c1c-44ad-b7a0-ad804b17f965-wat

 

The brute is the one who'd had trouble telling the weapon apart if someone was using conversion/proxy, not the Ardboys, even if I give them any weapons outside of their kits,  if they still follow the 1-handed/2-handed for their weapon profile, they'd be fine.

The brute's spiky club is a specific boss weapon, while the gore choppa and boss choppa also have vague description on how they'd look like.

Edited by RaiderX

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You keep couching this in terms of "why wouldnt you want to be considerate to your opponent" and "well if I was completely me-centric (i.e. a selfish ******) of COURSE I'd play it the way you do" and I think thats where a lot of the issue lies, at least for me. You have a clear preference for pretty strict WYSIWYG, for whatever reason, and youre arguing for it by implying that if we dont agree with it, we're selfish and mean to our opponents.

 

So that kinda rubs people the wrong way, in addition to your concerns seeming faintly ridiculous (like seriously, who is ever gonna be confused? if they are, just ask). From my perspective, and the perspective of my gaming group, your position seems way odder and more punishing to new players, far moreso than letting people model cool minis and then explain if there's some sort of issue. Its the sort of rules-lawyering legalism that has turned many of my friends off from the hobby in the past. 

So if someone was like "ooooohhhh heeeey your model doesnt match the picture on the card, thats wrong of you to do" pretty much everyone i play with would just laugh that off, maybe explain which model is which, and if the person persisted, we'd probably just not play them, because who has the time for that nonsense? 

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Ive just swapped gaming systems from warmachine back to AoS after a decade hiatus from games workshop, and as warmachine has a very strict WYSIWYG system i do aim for it. YES the picture has a choppa and club HOWEVER their will never be confusion as to what its representing if you model say a choppa and axe/dual choppas as, its been stated previously, the picture isnt depicting a strict axe/mace loadout due to the fact that there isnt split stats for 2 weapons. As long as you model 2 hand weapons it will be fine and i intend to model mine with choppa/axe or double choppa because i dislike the mace aesthetic. I do see confusion if you model just 1 hand weapon and the other hand empty as it looks similar to a 2 handed weapon

 

The first iteration of my IJ list will consist of 3 brutes, 3 ardboys (1x double choppa, 2x choppa shield) and i will use the brutes with double hackas and the boss will be with boss claw (i really want to model double hacka because i dont like the claw but i do see some confusion arising there as one of the abilities uses the claw model) Apologies if my writing is terrible, im writing just before bed and im tired as hell haha.

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No problem here as far as the ardboys go.  2 weapons, any style, works for me.

My question, in reference to the ardboy with shield:  When would you use shield bash over using charge?  The only instance i can think of pertains to visibility.  If you couldn't see your enemy before you moved, you couldn't use charge.  What am I missing otherwise?

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6 hours ago, C3ns0rious said:

The whole discussion/topic of shadespire guys not being exact seems pedantic and a non issue to me. It seems fairly obvious to me as a new player that Ardboys are either  duel wield, 2-handed or shield I don’t know who would be confused beyond that, and even if they where that quick summary would suffice.  Those are my thought personally having just read through all the posts.

I’d much rather have read something about people’s experiences playing IJ in game with different warbands configs or shield/hammer/dagger configurations. 

For instance I’m building some brutes now so I haven’t gotten to play them yet and mostly just wanted to paint them but I’m thinking of doing 3 brutes 3 Ardboys (from shadespire) 

What do you all think is the extra body worth not just going 5 brutes?

i was thinking brute boss with big Choppa 

the brute gore Hakka and a duel wield brute and the 2 duel wield Ardboys and a big Choppa Ardboys. From what I can tell reading around this seems an okay warband? 

 

I don't think the big choppa is ever worth it over two attacks, given the bonus damage on a crit.  

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1 hour ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

I don't think the big choppa is ever worth it over two attacks, given the bonus damage on a crit.  

I did the math and with the Ardboys there's a place for both the big choppa and the two choppas. The big choppa is on average more damage against lower and higher toughness, and equal damage against equal toughness. Two choppas obviously have a higher damage potential, but on the other hand the big choppa has a higher chance to finish off low health models.

So in short, against equal strength/toughness model with many wounds left, it's better to go with the 2 choppas. Against different toughness and/or low health models it's better to go with the big choppa.

If you're using Onslaught, the big choppa is even more better and the only thing better about the 2 choppas remains the higher potential with crits.

 

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38 minutes ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

This would be awesome. 

How did you math it out? All the people I’ve seen doing the checks come out firmly on 2 choppas. 

I use a simple method of calculating the average of 6 rolls, each turning a different number, then multiplying it with the number of attacks.

For example, the average damage caused by 1 attack with a big choppa against toughness of 3 is (0 + 0 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 4)/6 = 1,666...

Multiplied by 3 (the number of attacks) it is 5.

The same calculation for 2 choppas is (0 + 0 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 4)/6*4 = 4,666...

I did have a small error in the spreadsheet though. Against higher toughness the 2 choppas are better, but toughness 5 is pretty rare in the game.

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14 hours ago, Superninja said:

My question, in reference to the ardboy with shield:  When would you use shield bash over using charge?  The only instance i can think of pertains to visibility.  If you couldn't see your enemy before you moved, you couldn't use charge.  What am I missing otherwise?

I havent played many games and ive never been much for theoryhammer so ill just be experimenting with builds until i feel one is right for my play style. Ill be using the ardboys with shields as cheap tough5 objective holders/jammers which (hopefully) will free up my brutes to go where the damage needs to be done. Im more of a casual gamer so i think 2xhand weapons will always be my go to warbands as i dont really want to change my builds to play certain factions. I think pure weight of attacks will be better for that purpose. Minmaxing has never been my personal style in any gaming system. I dont actually think the shield bash ability will be used much unless you literally have no other use for your doubles.

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On 8/15/2019 at 8:17 PM, Sleboda said:

Actually, also @DrJekyll325 , I've just had another look at Ironskull's Boyz and it turns out that the only one that has a use in Warcry is Bonekutta. Gurzag and Basha have the wrong weapons to match any of the Ardboyz, and Hakka is not a Brute, which is the only 2-choppa Warcry orruk.

 

Bummer.

Incorrect.  Choppas and Smashas are the name of the dual wield loadout.  Any dual wielding ardboyz are using the Choppa and Smashas loadout.  

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