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Warcry - Daughters of Khaine Discussion


Kaleun

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47 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

We can all have our opinions of course, and I certainly don't mean to criticise you for yours. That said, it runs counter to literally every single video I've watched and every single game I've played. I think this is one of GW's best games.

Agreed, this is the game we have been waiting for from GW. Smart, intuitive rules with slick play and short games. Amazing. 

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1 hour ago, Emissary said:

 

I feel like I'm the only one playing this army

 

I just can’t seem to get any games in. But reading this post made me realise it might be finally time to get some Melusai. So keep those updates coming even if I don’t have any info to give in return. 

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1 hour ago, Kuma said:

Agreed, this is the game we have been waiting for from GW. Smart, intuitive rules with slick play and short games. Amazing. 

After playing 10+ games, some of the shine of it has worn off for me.  I'll give a few reasons here.

1) I'm not a fan of the 3 turn limit for the game.  It doesn't allow you to set up strategy well, especially when parts of your crew will come in on round 2 or even round 3.  It leaves a lot up to luck.  Get this mission where you need to hunt someone down or get the chest?  Better hope your shield crew with your damage dealers or speedsters aren't coming in from the opposite board side turn 2 or 3.  Like I mentioned before.  I had one mission Saturday where my opponent won the roll and was the defender. The mission stated that turn 2 he chose a model in his army I had to kill.  No limitations on who that was only that they needed to be more then like 4" from a board edge at the end of the game.  So turn 2 his boss comes on on the long opposite side from my stuff and he chooses him.  Game over, might as well start a new game now.  We playing a capture and control mission in the center with 3+ objectives and our stuff is coming on each turn from a board edge?  Better hope you aren't ironjawz or legions of nagash with your wonderful 3" move against someone like me with a 5", especially if you draw the marsh card which lowers it by -1".  It's nice for a casual game, but the game wouldn't be great in a tournament or competitive setting unless the setups and missions were heavily regulated.

2) The game is way too highly reliant on crits.  The damage spreads are too high.  1/4, 2/5 etc.  If you roll them you can kill things, if you don't roll them good luck doing much in a 3 turn game.  I'm more convinced the crits should be +1 damage or at best +2 like 2/3 or 2/4 for smaller things.  When you're doing 1 damage against something with 15 wounds (or up to 30 for bosses) in a three turn game, 1 damage is inconsequential as you don't have enough turns for it really to add up over time.  This also goes for things that are naturally like 2/4 like Orruks.  Just not a ton happens without the crits.  Either you roll them and you do some good damage or you sigh and move on to the next activation.

3) I do think there is some inbalance in the game.  Anything that gives your models extra damage or extra actions is huge, especially in 3 round games.  If you have them like Gloomspite Gitz your crew is really good.  If you don't you're behind the 8 ball in a bad way.  It can be really bad when you compare army abilities.  One reason (of many honestly) why the Blood Stalkers suck is that they only have 2 shots (3 for the leader) and their ability needs a triple, but only adds the damage if the next action does a crit.  The chance of that happening is really low and if you don't crit, your 165+ point model didn't do much of anything.  Meanwhile the Gloomspite quad not only gives you the quad Rampage, but also adds damage to all hits and crits in the free action.  It's not even close.  If the Blood Stalker ability applied to all hits or at least your whole activation it would maybe be worth it, but as it stands it's a terrible ability, especially for a triple.  You can also compare that to the quad for the Daughters that gives a +1 strength only to our fliers.  Again, it's not fantastic.  Give me the +damage every day of the week.   It's also compounded in the Daughters because 4 of the 6 abilities are very limited in who can use them, all of those to specific models you won't have many of and none being game changing.

It's been a nice game that wasn't expensive by GW standards (book, cards, mission cards) as I already have a kill team board and other AoS terrain, but I really don't see it as an upper tier game.  

58 minutes ago, Kramer said:

I just can’t seem to get any games in. But reading this post made me realise it might be finally time to get some Melusai. So keep those updates coming even if I don’t have any info to give in return. 

I've been considering adding a regular Blood Sister into my crew, but the -1s and -1 damage hurt.  I could live without one or the other, but at the moment when you compare 5 s3 attacks doing 1/4 with a 2" reach and 7" move, 4T and 20 wounds to a Sister of Slaughter with 4 s3 attacks doing 1/4 with a 2" reach and a 5" move, 8 wounds a t3 its a tough call when you can get a little over 2 Sisters of Slaughter (and the extra activation) for 1 Blood Sister.

Edited by Emissary
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I have a few games under my belt now using the Iron Golems, Splintered Fang and finally the Daughters of Khaine... here are my takeaways for the DoK...

Feels a little like revenge on us for how well the ladies do in AoS. The fact that none of our non-leader have more than 1 damage for a base attack almost all are 3 strength feels unnecessary. Our abilities are kinda clunky for the most part too because of how locked down they are to specific models. Witches are fast but that's about it, I wish they seemed like a better choice vs the SoS but to me the SoS are the only way to go unless you don't have the points. Bloodsisters should be either 2 base damage or 4 strength from their halberds. Kinerai are overcosted if you ask me at 10 wounds. A flying 12" move is great for a few reasons but at only 10 wounds 4T all that really means is you can rush to your death faster.

The various chaos cults seemed to be better across the board in the way their abilites are more flexible. If you dont take a Kinerai your quad is useless. If you don't take a Blood Stalker one of your trips is useless. If you don't take a Blood Sister one of your doubles is useless. It's nice to have warband building variety but at the cost of an interesting unit faction card and having to rely on critical hits before taking attacks yourself is a frustrating play style. 

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On 8/19/2019 at 4:53 PM, Emissary said:

It's nice for a casual game, but the game wouldn't be great in a tournament or competitive setting unless the setups and missions were heavily regulated.

....

Meanwhile the Gloomspite quad not only gives you the quad Rampage, but also adds damage to all hits and crits in the free action.  

I realize that for some, this is a drawback because tournament play is very important to them, but in my opinion not all games need to work in that environment. Personally, I don't think AoS is well-suited to tournaments rather, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.

Warcry is a fantastic basement game. The campaign system is freaking brilliant. I mean, for decades we've seen attempts at campaign gaming with GW games and they've always hit the same snag - relying on your group of participants to stick with it and show up for "campaign night." This Warcry system finally removes that problem.

If I had to pick one thing about the game that is a bit of a let down, it's the occasional game where the four decks generate a non-game, as you touched on. Still, as the game seems to be designed with casual play amongst like-minded gamers in mind, that should not be much if an issue. It takes all of five minutes to set up the scenario, so just redraw and get on with a better game. Job sorted.

I dunno. I just think this is a real gem of a game. I already have the scenery painted (in record time for me) and I've now gone through my stock pile of models and the new models to cobble together seven warbands, with more to be done this week. It's really stoked my hobby fires and made use of kits I've owned for years that have just been sitting there.

Loving it.

 

Side note on the Gitz. That's debatable. According to a complete reading of the rules a you should be adding the bonus damage to -each point of damage you allocate-, which I think everyone would agree is insane. That leaves the sensible interpretation that you add the bonus damage one time, to the total of what you generate from hits and grits.

Edited by Sleboda
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I've had several games using DoK and here is my take on them.

  • Khinerai Heartrender Shryke - The only viable Khinerai considering she is T4, 20W and keeps a safe distance shooting people w/o any min distance. If you happen to play a treasure game, she is practically broken. You need at least 1 Khinerai to grab objectives so this is probably the best choice.
  • Blood Sister Gorgai - Crazy good stats at excellent cost, reliable but the opportunity cost is the Khinerai leader.
  • Melusai Blood Sisters - They are resilient enough to take some blows before knocking out 10W models. Tough, mobile and deadly. Flexible unit.
  • Witch Aelves w Daggers - They are so cheap, just spam them and literally out activate your opponent!
  • Blood Stalker Krone - Reasonable damage but her min. range is a big issue. Also having 30 wounds when you are just shooting feels counter-intuitive.
  • Blood Stalkers - I think running 1 is fine to capture objectives and pepper enemies with shots. Occasionally you may roll 6s and feel like a god. Best to use with the Universal Double for +1 A to a total of 6 shots.
  • SoS - Well they have 4dmg crit and 2", but so does a Melusai Blood Sister, which is cheaper to run. Having mixed feelings about them.
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52 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Side note on the Gitz. That's debates. According there a complete reading of the rules a you should be adding the bonus damage to -each point of damage you allocate-, which I think everyone would agree is insane. That leaves the sensible interpretation that you add the bonus damage one time, to the total of what you generate from hits and grits.

I would hope so, but it would be tough to argue it as it stands.  It's a stupid good ability.  A regular boinder almost killed a fully healed Ghorgai the other day with it.

54 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I realize that for some, this is a drawback because tournament play is very important to them, but in my opinion not all games need to work in that environment. Personally, I don't think AoS is well-suited to tournaments rather, but I suppose that's neither here nor there.

Honestly, I'm really glad you like the game.  I like it also.  I just don't rate it as one of the best games, but it's good everyone has different opinions.  Really, I don't play in tournaments.  My group is competitive, but not tourney competitive.  We run campaigns and don't run netlists.  We've just had too many games where it wasn't competitive and that you should stop the game mid-game because it was impossible for one side that's starting to sour us a bit.  It's mainly the 3 turn system coupled with large parts of your crew coming in on turns 2 or 3 with the very swingy damage that's causing the issue.  We enjoy playing, but don't have high hopes or put a lot of brainpower into it.

37 minutes ago, InSaint said:
  • SoS - Well they have 4dmg crit and 2", but so does a Melusai Blood Sister, which is cheaper to run. Having mixed feelings about them.

I'm curious about this.  How is the Blood Sister cheaper to run?

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2 hours ago, Emissary said:

I'm curious about this.  How is the Blood Sister cheaper to run?

Look at their stats side by side, pt for pt Blood Sister is a more optimal choice.

  SoS w Shields Blood Sister
Quantity 2 1
Pts 170 165
Movement 5 7
Toughness 4 4
Wounds 16 20
Range 2 2
Attacks (Twice) 12 10
Strength 3 3
Damage 1 1
Crit 4 4
Usable DoK Abilities 2 3

Combat stats do not degrade in Warcry when you are wounded. Losing a 8W T4 model, which is not too difficult for your opponent, will effectively half your damage output.

Edited by InSaint
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See, I'd rather have 2 SoS with Daggers at 150 points.  The attacks go up to 16 vs 10 if you attack twice at a cheaper unit cost.  Yes they're only T3, but I'd rather have the extra attack.  Even if you kill one the damage is still close to the Blood Sister, only you also get 4 actions to the Blood Sister's 2 and get the extra activation and body for taking/holding objectives.

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I got to play a couple games of Warcry last week and really enjoyed it. Both games were 4 player games and one thing I like about the game is I think it handles multiplayer games well and quickly. There's definitely room in my life for a fast and light skirmish game that still offers some interesting choices. I think the lightweight campaign mode will also be fun. Like someone else said I think this is a good game to play for fun with like-minded friends--I'd play in a Warcry tournament for fun but I wouldn't take it too seriously. If I want to compete in a serious way I'll play a game with a much higher skillcap and much less luck such as Malifaux. 

Anyway I played DoK in both of the games I played and wanted to share my impression of them. I ran much more elite lists and I was very impressed with them. My favorite was Blood Sister Gorgai, 2x Khinerai Lifetakers, 1 Khinerai Heartrender, and 3x WAs with Buckler. I think SoS are probably a better choice than WA but I don't have any. I also think the double knife WA might be better than the knife/buckler but again I don't have any.

Next time I'll likely replace the Heartrender with another Lifetaker--I loved them. Super mobile and on a quad I could basically use one to kill anything I wanted. I think they average around 17 damage on a quad. Compared to a Heartrender that would get more like 10 damage out of a quad.

Sure, the Lifetakers won't survive long but that just means you have to be careful with how you play them--either taking out isolated enemies or sacrificing or them in the right time and place to accomplish your goals.

Anyway, I just wanted to share a different point of view on the DoK. However you use them I hope you have fun doing it.

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  • 3 weeks later...

The list I am running:

Leader - Khinerai Lfetakers Harridan

2 Melusai Sisters

1 Melusai Stalker

4 Witch Elves.

Its just 8 miniatures, easy to transport, but its fairly fun list. Not creme de la creme, but definitely can pull their own weight. You might scoff at those 2 sisters, but the fact is, those 20 wounds are something like a center pillar. You can seriously rely on them to hold the line, and given some luck they can cut through stuff with sheer amount of attacks (fishing for crits, but thats something to be expected with the sad sad cards this warband has).

The Stalker is mostly just for fun, and to see if you can get lucky. Granted the intent was to get her to chip at priority targets, before they get close so that you can proc your Double and get +1S +1A by the time you will be engaging them.

Harridan is surprisingly good. Very fast, and while just S3, having 5 Attacks and being able to do 2/4 unlike the rest makes her very good assassin and objective hunter. Plus it allows you to proc some of the Leader skills where you need them due to her speed.

Just something to think about when you get tired of the Gorgai who is ofc the top, but still the Harridan is not bad either. S3 is an issue, but not impossible to work around.

Now the only thing I would change in this list is drop the Staker and get two SoS instead. Or a 3rd Stalker. You really cant ignore those 20 wounds. Against T5 armies those wounds will see you through the painful grind. 

Its sad when I look at the Corvus Cabal Shrike I always think "this is how the Sisters should have been" combat stats wise.

 

Honeslty If it was me, Id swap the stats around a bit. The Khinerai are too expensive and squish. The intent for them is to be a Alpha strike unit, but they dont work. Meanwhile Melusai were ment to be the elite foot sloggers (err... tail sloggers ? :D )

If I did the cards, I`d swap around Khinerai and Melusai attacks around. The idea is they Alpha strike suicide units, while Melusai.

5A S3 2/4 for Khinerai,  4A S4 2/4 for Melusai (combat version)

2A S4 2/4 Khinerai, 3A S3 2/5 for Melusai (ranged version).

Would make much more sense in regards to what they should be doing on the battlefield. But ah well, it is what it is, and unless its changed in a FAQ (not likely), there is not much to do about it. 

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  • 7 months later...
17 hours ago, Kaleun said:

Soon the Morgraeves Bloodcoven Warband will come for Warhammer Underworlds. The Models do make for a great Warcry Warband too!

 

Daughter-of-Khaine-768x768.jpg.dd05b13d7c9bcb9eebcae9a0d32bde80.jpg

I really like this models, so I'll probably start another warband from here... but this box is about 500 points, how would you expand the rooster? A khinerai box?

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On 4/14/2020 at 11:04 AM, Gotz said:

I really like this models, so I'll probably start another warband from here... but this box is about 500 points, how would you expand the rooster? A khinerai box?

hmm I am in the lucky position to already be in possession of a full DoK army. But when you would like to buy one box, I would lean towards a box of melusai and build Blood Sisters. They seem to be tough in Warcry.

I like the list of @Myrdin

Maybe he will give us a feedback of his/her games

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Thanks @Kaleun for at ment. me :)
I didnt even know these girls are already out. Will definitely snatch one box for myself. The Hag Queen with spear is absolutely stunning!

The Melusai and SoS are fairly good too. The two WE are very dissappointing miniatures though.  They looks like they got hit by a sledgehammer and turned into witch dwarfs instead of elfs.

@Gotz I am sorry to say, but the Archer is nigh unplayable in Warcry. I tried a lot of different setups, but her statline is just bad.... so bad (like all the elite DoK units in Warcry) that for those point I phased her out and replaced her with a Slaughter Queen, who can at least pull her own weight.  The 1 to 6 chance to actually do something while fun when it happens makes extremely unreliable and feels just like a points sink, even in friendly matches. (2A S3 DMG1/5 is a really bad statline for such a model that costs some odd 170pts). Anything the Stalkers can do, the Sister do better, and even the sisters are amongst the low tier elite units out there, even when compared so some native Warcry ones.

But to be honest I havent played my DoK warband. With more and more old armies getting their own, the balance is getting more broken than ever and DoK are one of the worst warbands I have played so far (I have BoC who are really fun to play, their abilities are meh, but the stats are fairly reliable, from natives I got the Cabal which is very fun as well, though lot of their skills are terrain dependent.).

My girls will most likely see table only against native Warcry armies where the stat line is more tame, unless they receive an update in the future warcry books with some noticeable improvement to the Khinerai and Melusai. But regarding the underworld warband > they will have their AoS rules so that makes them usable outside of Warcry and I really like that HQ with spear.

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  • 9 months later...

When I finish my KO warband I was thinking about doing a warband of some snake ladies next. Always wanted to get a box of those but I couldn't be bothered to collect an army. I was thinking:

Gorgai

3x blood sisters

1 blood stalker (sit on objective and take pot shots at whoever)

1 sisters of slaughter/barbed whip and knife

should be 980 or so points. Might not be the most competitive list but would it be not be entirely terrible?

Idea was to get one box of melusai and the WH underworlds box and call it done. But really the melusai are the key miniatures that make me want to even collect this warband.

edit: was on varanscribe and noticed the newer melusai ironscale has a points value. Don't recall seeing it's statline or any news about that model getting rules for this game, did it get rules in white dwarf or something? Is that leader even any good?

Edited by Gorthaur
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