Matched Play: How "Optional" Should Terrain and Realm Rules Be?

[wayniac]

Just now, SwampHeart said:

Fortunately the US got to see the end result of the UK events that used them and shied away from them. 

On that note, not to deviate too much, the US seems to consider most of the UK events to not be "serious".  The official GTs at Warhammer World especially are considered to not be "real" tournaments from most of the sentiment I've seen.

[SwampHeart]

Just now, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

But what about battleplans such as star strike, gifts from the gods, shifting objectives, relocation orb. Wherever you deploy your monster it has the potential to backfire as you don’t know where the objectives will be 

You just have to park in an advantageous spot where you control its proximity. Its really not a big brain play to make sure that the monster you bring either doesn't impact the game at all or is all bonus for you. 

[SwampHeart]

2 minutes ago, wayniac said:

On that note, not to deviate too much, the US seems to consider most of the UK events to not be "serious".  The official GTs at Warhammer World especially are considered to not be "real" tournaments from most of the sentiment I've seen.

The official GTs at WHW aren't real tournaments. That's a sentiment in the UK too - just look at how they're run. They're certainly not held up as a pinnacle of the tournament scene in any country. But as to the rest of the events I don't know what media you follow but everyone I know and talk to (I'm in the US) considers the UK's major events to be ahead of the US as far as skill and meta are concerned. I don't know a single major US tournament name who isn't watching BOBO, FaceHammer, SCGT, etc. as an example of what good can look like.  

Edited July 25, 2019 by SwampHeart

[wayniac]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

The official GTs at WHW aren't real tournaments. That's a sentiment in the UK too - just look at how they're run. They're certainly not held up as a pinnacle of the tournament scene in any country. But as to the rest of the events I don't know what media you follow but everyone I know and talk to (I'm in the US) considers the UK's major events to be ahead of the US as far as skill and meta are concerned. I don't know a single major US tournament name who isn't watching BOBO, FaceHammer, SCGT, etc. as an example of what good can look like.  

Fair point I Haven't followed the media in a while, and when I did it was mostly if its not ITC then it doesn't matter, at least that was the impression I got.

I do agree with you that Ghur is weird and probably is the "worst" of the realm rules.  THe rest I think encourage balanced lists in most cases; sure you have something like KO where they have a bad book that needs work, but for most everything else I think they add balance.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

You just have to park in an advantageous spot where you control its proximity. Its really not a big brain play to make sure that the monster you bring either doesn't impact the game at all or is all bonus for you. 

You make it sound so easy, I don’t think it really is. Considering the enemy manipulating your monster too.

my point is that it likely would have had very little overall impact if people had endorsed it, people would just adapt. But a few loud voices decide it’s not for them so therefore no one plays it. Which is a shame because it’s immensely fun and adds another dynamic to figure out. 

[SwampHeart]

5 minutes ago, wayniac said:

THe rest I think encourage balanced lists in most cases; sure you have something like KO where they have a bad book that needs work, but for most everything else I think they add balance.

Even here I can't agree - what do you do when you draw Shootcast in Ghyran and you can't run? There is no adapting to deal with this, you just get blown off the table. What happens when you get Nagash in Shyish and he becomes Ethereal? Brittle Isle and you brought units with good rend (and paid points for that rend)? Or Brittle Isle and you play a full on Stardrake Staunch Defender build? There are too many things that come up in realms where it doesn't matter if you're a good general you just lose because of bad draw. Losing to RNG is bad. 

@The Jabber Tzeentch I'm speaking from a place of experience. My play group was testing full blown realm rules for at least 6 months. I'm not talking I played 5 games with Ghur, I probably played 20+ games in Ghur and never once did the monsters add anything other than a wallet measuring contest to the table. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by SwampHeart

[wayniac]

2 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Even here I can't agree - what do you do when you draw Shootcast in Ghyran and you can't run? There is no adapting to deal with this, you just get blown off the table. What happens when you get Nagash in Shyish and he becomes Ethereal? Brittle Isle and you brought units with good rend (and paid points for that rend)? Or Brittle Isle and you play a full on Stardrake Staunch Defender build? There are too many things that come up in realms where it doesn't matter if you're a good general you just lose because of bad draw. Losing to RNG is bad. 

I agree losing to RNG is bad, but isn't the point of these to DISCOURAGE stuff like Shootcast or Stardrake Staunch Defender?  Okay Nagash you can't help he's one dude, but it seems like the entire intent (even if it's not used that way) of the realms is to make people think "Hmm.. we could roll Ulgu limited sight for the realm.  Shootcast might not be the best option, I should bring something more well-rounded" or what have you and give a reason to rethink those skew builds.

Edited July 25, 2019 by wayniac

[SwampHeart]

Just now, wayniac said:

I agree losing to RNG is bad, but isn't the point of these to DISCOURAGE stuff like Shootcast or Stardrake Staunch Defender?  Okay Nagash you can't help he's one dude, but it seems like the entire intent (even if it's not used that way) of the realms is to make people think "Hmm.. we could roll Ulgu limited sight for the realm.  Shootcast might not be the best option, I should bring something more well-rounded" or what have you and give a reason to rethink those skew builds.

Right but that's the whole thing, if it doesn't discourage the skew and you catch the bad draw you're even more screwed. Here's the thing, all the realms do is increase the odds that a gambler army wins. If you take Shootcast and never draw Ulgu but draw Ghyran then your gamble paid off. There's no tactical play here, its literally 'I hope we roll good realms and realmscapes for my army'. And its also - I hope my army has enough internal balance for me to make a balanced build. And lets not even start discussing the impact of things like Steel Rain or Winds of Death where a random die roll could just result in a unit entirely being wiped out and there is no way to counter play it, at all. 

[amysrevenge]

I think the biggest problem with the Realm rules is that they only limit SOME of the play styles but not all of them.  It would be much more fair if in addition to:

• Shooting limited to 8"
• Can't run
• No reserves

we also had the potential for other crippling things to other play styles as possibilities such as:

• Roll 1D6 instead of 2D6 to charge
• All melee attack ranges reduced to 1/2"
• Roll 1D6 instead of 2D6 for casting a spell
• -2 to hit for all attacks
• Half Move characteristic for all models
• No models can be set up after deployment via any "summoning" rules.

This way it's not just those few play styles that have the potential to be crippled beyond all effectiveness - their counterparts also have to worry about this.

 

 

(ETA:  I feel like I should add that this isn't sour grapes - my main competitive army is FEC and I would LOOOOOOVE to play on a nerfed shooting table.  It still isn't fair that other than Total Commitment fudging my Ghoul Patrol, I don't really have to moderate my list writing because of Realm Rules the way that other people do.)

Edited July 25, 2019 by amysrevenge

[Skreech Verminking]

Well the realm rules are an interesting, and although they aren’t really often used in the well tournament scene, I do sometimes see people use it, although it’s mostly just out of fun reasons.

in total I mean sure they could be an interesting option, although can be a huge problem for certain armies, that can be shut down immediately and for the the rest of the battle.

It isn’t really fun when your armie is incapable of doing anything.

but the realmspell in total could be a interesting feature for the tournament scene.

but that’s just my opinion.

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[svnvaldez]

Matched play tournaments should be ran as set out on pg 70-71 of the GH19 imo. 

That doesn’t mean it the best, or that I like it all, but I do think that should be the official way to play and anything else should be classified as open/narrative play rather than a matched play pitched battle tournament.

[18121812]

Honestly, I don't use the Realm and terrain rules out of simple special rules fatigue. 

There's just too much stuff to remember. Unless I can see an actual improvement in how fun the game is, why bother?

I've played with all the rules. I don't hate any of them. But I don't think they are worth the time. 

[SwampHeart]

6 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

That doesn’t mean it the best, or that I like it all, but I do think that should be the official way to play and anything else should be classified as open/narrative play rather than a matched play pitched battle tournament.

Nah, that's GW's (very bad) suggested tournament ruleset. The idea that should be the standard is absolutely awful, oh you don't like to shake hands? You lose 2 points. Also I don't think every model in your army is shaded with highlights so you're down 15 points as well. GW tried to do a good thing but it fails miserably and I absolutely would refuse to attend a tournament that used it. Thankfully most every major TO already has a better tournament pack than that already. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by SwampHeart

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

Nah, that's GW's (very bad) suggested tournament ruleset. The idea that should be the standard is absolutely awful, oh you don't like to shake hands? You lose 2 points. Also I don't think every model in your army is shaded with highlights so you're down 15 points as well. GW tried to do a good thing but it fails miserably and I absolutely would refuse to attend a tournament that used it. Thankfully most every major TO already has a better tournament pack than that already. 

Firstly GW have made clarifications regarding those points, so what you’re saying is moot. GW have just introduced a recommended set of rules that most other tournaments are doing in some aspect anyway. Secondly let’s not derail, im sure there’s another thread just for this. 

[wayniac]

3 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Nah, that's GW's (very bad) suggested tournament ruleset. The idea that should be the standard is absolutely awful, oh you don't like to shake hands? You lose 2 points. Also I don't think every model in your army is shaded with highlights so you're down 15 points as well. GW tried to do a good thing but it fails miserably and I absolutely would refuse to attend a tournament that used it. Thankfully most every major TO already has a better tournament pack than that already. 

While I don't disagree, a standard set of rules is a very important thing.  When tournaments run their own rules, pick and choose what they run, etc. it sort of detracts from the "legitimacy" of competitive play since there's no single standard.  The GW rules might not be the best but they should be the standard if only because they are directly from the company making the game.

I feel what they say should be used in events is what should be used in events.  If that includes the terrain and realm rules, then so be it.

Edited July 25, 2019 by wayniac

[SwampHeart]

Just now, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

Firstly GW have made clarifications regarding those points, so what you’re saying is moot. GW have just introduced a recommended set of rules that most other tournaments are doing in some aspect anyway. Secondly let’s not derail, im sure there’s another thread just for this. 

Even their clarifications aren't enough. Its a bad pack and I'm responding to a post about them. Part of the core of their use is that realm rules will be in use - and as I'm sure is clear at this point that is something I don't believe should be used in tournaments. 

[tripchimeras]

Just now, wayniac said:

While I don't disagree, a standard set of rules is a very important thing.  When tournaments run their own rules, pick and choose what they run, etc. it sort of detracts from the "legitimacy" of competitive play since there's no single standard.  The GW rules might not be the best but they should be the standard if only because they are directly from the company making the game.

I didn't find this to be at all true in 8th edition where there were nearly no major tournaments that did not use extensive Comp (at least in the US), and the tourney scene was extremely well developed at that point in time imo.  Nothing wrong with a little variation from tourney to tourney to keep things interesting, and generally over time the best tourney packs shine through, and gradually most shift towards very similar rules (rules GW never seem to get the fyi on).

[SwampHeart]

8 minutes ago, wayniac said:

I feel what they say should be used in events is what should be used in events.  If that includes the terrain and realm rules, then so be it.

But GW themselves don't actually do this, to be very clear. They don't use Ghur at WHW events so they're full on admitting that all the realm rules aren't suitable for competitive play.  Also you're telling me you think the WHW GTs are a better barometer of competitive play than literally any other major event? Just because GW says a thing is true doesn't mean it is, if you recall GW said Gutbusters would remain Deadly as Always in the GHB. 

Furthermore all the best tournaments have always deviated from GW - in 8th Comp was king for a reason. The idea that you should be playing the game per GW's frankly terrible tournament pack has no basis in the reality of major tournaments. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by SwampHeart

[The Mysterious Mr B]

Local tournament or all day to play? Sure, use all the rules. A short evening after work at the local club, just to unwind with familiar faces and enjoy a scrap? All the extra rules slow it down and prove too much to remember and think about, even in 'matched play'. Whether this is truly matched play or not, who knows. In a way, I don't think it matters if it is or isn't. 

[gjnoronh]

3 hours ago, wayniac said:

While I don't disagree, a standard set of rules is a very important thing.  When tournaments run their own rules, pick and choose what they run, etc. it sort of detracts from the "legitimacy" of competitive play since there's no single standard.   

Why? 
Competitive play is competitive, winners should be respected for their legitimate achievement even if the rules aren't exactly the same from one event to the other.  

It's not Magic where there are set highly defined formats. AoS is very open ended and as someone pointed out on the first page that makes it actually a very interesting war game.     Inside of matched play even as defined by GW's tournament rules there is a lot of weird stuff that can really mess with the competitive balance at any given 3-5 game event (realm rules as discussed quite eloquently by others here in this thread.)  That's pretty RNG or organizer whim dependent competitive balance even if every last rule as written is folowed. There is a lot of variance in terrain from board to board and event to event  even if we use all GW products for terrain.   While some events use the terrain war scrolls including in the terrain compendium list on line the majority do not.  That skews competitive balance from event to event  quite a bit. 

How many events give players ID numbers and badges? That's part of the defined tournament rules from GHB 2019.  If an event doesn't give out ID numbers is a winner 'less legitimate.'  You might argue heck those ID numbers aren't important (and I agree.)    But I think it's a bit odd to   say w"e must use all the rules exactly as written" while also saying 'ignore the rules I think aren't important.'    

Again read upward on this page where the GW run events are generally considered not to be good models of how to run a 'competitive' tournament for decades.  It's hard to reconcile that fairly universal sentiment with 'everyone should follow the exact system  suggested by GW.'  

Edited July 25, 2019 by gjnoronh

[chord]

Since AOS is a war game not a list building game I believe the ream rules should always be used as they discourage one trick pony lists.

Is there a chance that you could get hosed? Yup, but there is also a chance you don't.  Its life.

[SwampHeart]

7 minutes ago, chord said:

Since AOS is a war game not a list building game I believe the ream rules should always be used as they discourage one trick pony lists.

Is there a chance that you could get hosed? Yup, but there is also a chance you don't.  Its life.

Completely uninterested in a 'it's life' justification for using bad rules for a game. I get enough of 'it's life' in my actual regular life, would rather my hobby serve as some form of escapism for that. 

[amysrevenge]

58 minutes ago, chord said:

Since AOS is a war game not a list building game I believe the ream rules should always be used as they discourage one trick pony lists.

Is there a chance that you could get hosed? Yup, but there is also a chance you don't.  Its life.

Buuut, as I said above (and you Liked haha), there are a vast number of One Trick Lists that aren't impacted by realm rules at all.  Only some One Trick Ponies are discouraged.  My One Trick Pony Feast Day FEC aren't discouraged by a single realm rule.  Bring it on, let's roll it randomly at the table - the more restrictive it is, the wider my advantage becomes, I have no care at all.  And that's not necessarily right or fair.

[svnvaldez]

I also should clarify that the top of pg 70-71 in BOLD says something along the lines that a TO can make whatever alterations they want as long as all players are informed. Thus anything is technically still a matched play tournament. 

My preference is that no alterations are made simply so that we have a standard format.

[svnvaldez]

5 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

But GW themselves don't actually do this, to be very clear. They don't use Ghur at WHW events so they're full on admitting that all the realm rules aren't suitable for competitive play. 

It's either bullet point 7 or 9 or something that says the TO will pick the realm and realmscape. It is my belief that by not picking Ghur and selecting reasonable realmscapes (you can always pick the roll of 1 ie none) you are still following pg 70-71 as intended.