Matched Play: How "Optional" Should Terrain and Realm Rules Be?

[Dead Scribe]

To many of us, tournaments and matched play and our pick up games at home store are one and the same.

[SwampHeart]

8 minutes ago, soak314 said:

I can see a lot of people here don't regard the ability to adapt to something you can't control as good measure of tactica, but is it really not?

No because if you play KO you don't have a viable non shooting build. So there is no 'take a balanced list and you won't get boned by Ulgu!' in that book - if you take KO and you get the 'shooting range is 8' then you're screwed because GW gave you a bad book and you played with a set of rules that further hamstrings you. Much the same as I play BoC/HoS both of which have many units which can run and charge. That ability is factored into the points cost of my models, when I get the 'you can't run' effect I'm now overpaying for those models where my opponent is entirely unaffected. When I play in the realm of Ghur and I bring a Ghorgon for my monster and my opponent brings a Magma Dragon there is no 'adapting my tactics' there is just a 300~ point difference in the game now. 

 

[Landohammer]

A) Realm Effects - These aren't being commonly used in my meta even though I personally like them. IMHO they are fine as long as they are announced ahead of time. Its critical that TOs and League organizers provide guidance  on these otherwise they shouldn't be used. I rarely use them in pickup games, and when I do I just re-roll the dumb ones. A lot of people complain about the impenetrable gloom one, (which is fair, its dumb) but if everyone knows about it going in then all is fair.  Realm of origin artefacts seem pretty much commonplace in all lists now. 

B) Terrain Rules - Of the three FLGS I frequent, the only GW terrain they have are citadel woods. The rest is a hodge podge of custom and third party stuff. I have never been to a tourney where the table has multiple GW terrain pieces, so the terrain warscrolls are pretty irrelevant to me personally. I don't know of anyone who uses the special terrain dice rolls either (ie nullifying, cursed, whatever, etc). This may be a holdover attitude from WHF where they were insane and just discarded out the gate. 

C) Terrain Setup- This varies. For pickup or league games its done by whoever gets to the store first to save time. For tournaments its done by the TO before the tournament starts. So the official method is completely irrelevant to me. I have never seen this exploited and TBH someone who nitpicks over terrain placement is probably going to be a nightmare opponent anyway. 

[soak314]

6 minutes ago, wayniac said:

I won't delve too deep into this tangent but people don't want randomness to dictate what they can't control, they want it to be actual skill and how you play, like wargaming of old where maneuvering and setting up charges and things like that were all the rule of the day.  Well actually most modern players seem to want list building to be the only real tactic, but my point stands:  The issue is it's just "We rolled the result on the chart which really hurt my army" isn't doing anything for tactics, it's just RNG ****** you over and making  you adapt instead of adapting coming naturally during the course of the game.

That said though, I still think the realm rules add some nice variety, even if I feel that having such huge swings of the game due to a die roll isn't actual tactics.

Im pretty sure we'll have a rough time coming to any sort of accord at this point. But i still think any sort of 'welp im boned' mentality born of rolling one of the simple realm effect variants you could have easily prepared a list for is *very much* something any player can curb at list building. 

It really just boils down to realm rules on not letting players roll the lists they want to roll (one trick pony lists as folks have called em) because that's what the game's early established meta has conditioned them to.

[tripchimeras]

3 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

To many of us, tournaments and matched play and our pick up games at home store are one and the same.

I mean sure that is totally fair, and in the past I have certainly done a lot of that too.  But I think that is not the case for everyone, I'm just saying that the realm rules/terrain rules as a balancing force, do actually make sense in many cases, just not for tourneys.  So if you are a tourney player primarily obv, that means you never prob are going to use them, which is fine.  I don't really use them either, but I can see their value in a different situation.

[SwampHeart]

3 minutes ago, soak314 said:

It really just boils down to realm rules on not letting players roll the lists they want to roll (one trick pony lists as folks have called em) because that's what the game's early established meta has conditioned them to.

Or you know sometimes you play an army that literally only has a single build that works. But hey I guess if that's the case you're just a bad tactician since you picked that book and all. 

[tripchimeras]

2 minutes ago, soak314 said:

Im pretty sure we'll have a rough time coming to any sort of accord at this point. But i still think any sort of 'welp im boned' mentality born of rolling one of the simple realm effect variants you could have easily prepared a list for is *very much* something any player can curb at list building. 

It really just boils down to realm rules on not letting players roll the lists they want to roll (one trick pony lists as folks have called em) because that's what the game's early established meta has conditioned them to.

I think you far oversimplify the effects of realm rules on lists.  Some of them are pretty extreme, and very few army books put emphasis on every phase of the game in equal measure.  Sure I can make a deepkin list with some magic and shooting and infantry, but none of them are particularly good.  In fact I think the best builds in almost all armies do not go COMPLETELY skew, I don't think king eel spam is the best deepkin build, I think the more balanced flip tide is.  It doesn't change the fact that Eels are the beating heart of both lists and if there was a realm that prevented flying and/or deepstrike it would significantly hamper the tactical options in both cases, particularly if my oponent was completely unaffected by the rule.  Over the course of many games, who cares, and yeah its a good challenge to see if I am good enough to overcome it.  But if it is table 1, round 5 of a tourney between 2 presumably closely matched players, do you really think I would be wrong to be pissed about that?  Even if the book were stronger Karadron are always going to be a shooting heavy army, a balanced list in a world they have a few more options might have some combat units, but the beating heart of their list is going to run on shooting.  Ulgu is going to bone them even if they take a balanced list, maybe against a significantly worse player at least in that dream scenario where they at least have SOME combat options they might be able to win, but not at a top table of a tourney.  And that is not how you want a tourney to run/end.

[soak314]

4 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

When I play in the realm of Ghur and I bring a Ghorgon for my monster and my opponent brings a Magma Dragon there is no 'adapting my tactics' there is just a 300~ point difference in the game now. 

 

Oh hey someone finally addressing ghur!

This lovely realm rule is actually worded real vague, and having gone over it I think the best way to handle ghur is to have the organiser pre assign monstrous beasts. It doesn't say the players have to pick beasts out of their own battletomes iirc, so we can play this one by ear pretty easily.

That's my solution that sticks totally within what the ghb defines matched play as, at least. 

But also if your opponent brings something stupid and insists on using it as per the book you could simply avoid it and have it crashing back into his own army. Which is how you make a tactics out of one of the dumbest rules in matched play.

[SwampHeart]

18 minutes ago, soak314 said:

Oh hey someone finally addressing ghur!

This lovely realm rule is actually worded real vague, and having gone over it I think the best way to handle ghur is to have the organiser pre assign monstrous beasts. It doesn't say the players have to pick beasts out of their own battletomes iirc, so we can play this one by ear pretty easily.

That's my solution that sticks totally within what the ghb defines matched play as, at least. 

But also if your opponent brings something stupid and insists on using it as per the book you could simply avoid it and have it crashing back into his own army. Which is how you make a tactics out of one of the dumbest rules in matched play.

So effectively you're house ruling the really bad realm rules? I.E. you're no longer playing directly out of the book - the crux of this whole thing to begin with. Also to be clear in a tournament you have no choice but to play whatever stupid thing your opponent wants to bring, either that or forfeit the game. And presumably your opponent has half a brain and also understands the Ghur rule and knows how to engineer his monster to get to you (it isn't exactly rocket science). 

Edited July 25, 2019 by SwampHeart

[wayniac]

11 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

So effectively you're house ruling the really bad realm rules? I.E. you're no longer playing directly out of the book - the crux of this whole thing to begin with. Also to be clear in a tournament you have no choice but to play whatever stupid thing your opponent wants to bring, either that or forfeit the game. And presumably your opponent has half a brain and also understands the Ghur rule and knows how to engineer his monster to get to you (it isn't exactly rocket science). 

I would assume a tournament would have a house rule to prevent that anyways, or just not pick Ghur from the list assuming realms are determined before the round.

House-ruling isn't a bad thing however.  Ghur is one of those things I really don't see how it's even remotely balanced for gameplay.

Edited July 25, 2019 by wayniac

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

My issue with Ghur is that no one ever even gave it a chance. It was written off day one. Personally I think it’s great and people should try and play it at tourneys. 

[SwampHeart]

Just now, wayniac said:

I would assume a tournament would have a house rule to prevent that anyways, or just not pick Ghur from the list assuming realms are determined before the round.

House-ruling isn't a bad thing however.

I agree 100% but what I'm digging at here is that the 'matched play core rules' aren't suitable for use as it straight out of the box. They are poorly written and must be curated to be made useful. 

[XReN]

I'm all for using those in every single game.

[zilberfrid]

2 minutes ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

My issue with Ghur is that no one ever even gave it a chance. It was written off day one. Personally I think it’s great and people should try and play it at tourneys. 

If I recall correctly, it's also one of the few not blatantly favouring casters.

[wayniac]

1 minute ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

My issue with Ghur is that no one ever even gave it a chance. It was written off day one. Personally I think it’s great and people should try and play it at tourneys. 

In my experience all the realm rules were written off day one.  I find way too much "but what if" rather than doing it.  "What if my opponent brings X monster".  Same sort of thing that was written off for pre-GHB AOS or Open Play.  "What if my opponent runs 10 Nagashes" "What if my opponent fields all monsters", "What if my opponent fills every inch of their side of the table with the most powerful units in the game".

Ghur is a weird place though because it A) requires you to have a monster and B) it gives you free reign to pick the most powerful monster.  That's not possible to be balanced.  It needed something else to not just open Pandora's box.

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, zilberfrid said:

If I recall correctly, it's also one of the few not blatantly favouring casters.

Not really - there are 3 that favor large single casters and the rest are fairly meh for most casters. 

[Dead Scribe]

45 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

I mean sure that is totally fair, and in the past I have certainly done a lot of that too.  But I think that is not the case for everyone, I'm just saying that the realm rules/terrain rules as a balancing force, do actually make sense in many cases, just not for tourneys.  So if you are a tourney player primarily obv, that means you never prob are going to use them, which is fine.  I don't really use them either, but I can see their value in a different situation.

My statement means that for those that identify primarily or  solely as tournament players, that means the realm rules and anything not tournament standard will never be used and that I indeed think that they should remain "optional" or for people playing games that have no ranking or tournament precedent.

Not that they have no use and no one should use them.

[SwampHeart]

Just now, wayniac said:

In my experience all the realm rules were written off day one.

You say this understanding that for nearly 6 months after GW stated they were intended to be used that every major GT was using them right? It isn't like people didn't play them, there was a half year period of 'lets see how these work' and the consensus was they add very little given the massive amount of bloat they incur. 

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

1 minute ago, wayniac said:

In my experience all the realm rules were written off day one.  I find way too much "but what if" rather than doing it.  "What if my opponent brings X monster".  Same sort of thing that was written off for pre-GHB AOS or Open Play.  "What if my opponent runs 10 Nagashes" "What if my opponent fields all monsters", "What if my opponent fills every inch of their side of the table with the most powerful units in the game".

Ghur is a weird place though because it A) requires you to have a monster and B) it gives you free reign to pick the most powerful monster.  That's not possible to be balanced.  It needed something else to not just open Pandora's box.

But the whole point of that realm is that the monsters aren’t part of your army. You pick a really powerful one it could end up backfiring!

The whole of AoS is a what if game, so much so that you can’t consider everything and you have to be good at reacting to situations on the fly. 

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

You say this understanding that for nearly 6 months after GW stated they were intended to be used that every major GT was using them right? It isn't like people didn't play them, there was a half year period of 'lets see how these work' and the consensus was they add very little given the massive amount of bloat they incur. 

I don’t remember every major GT using them at all, at least not in UK from what I saw. Maybe the GW ones for what they were at the time but they weren’t competitive tourneys. 

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

But the whole point of that realm is that the monsters aren’t part of your army. You pick a really powerful one it could end up backfiring!

I've played with the Ghur realm rules, repeatedly. It doesn't backfire on you, ever, assuming you read the rules and bring a monster selection that allows you ensure the positioning you need. Effectively Ghur just rewards system mastery - do you know the available monsters better than your opponent? 

[wayniac]

4 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

You say this understanding that for nearly 6 months after GW stated they were intended to be used that every major GT was using them right? It isn't like people didn't play them, there was a half year period of 'lets see how these work' and the consensus was they add very little given the massive amount of bloat they incur. 

In the US from what I saw, there was near-universal panning of the realm rules and all the major tournaments I'm aware of said no way, not using it.  At least from what I recall.   I could be mistaken though my memory is hazy from that period but I do recall a LOT of gnashing of teeth and "What were they thinking" and just a near-universal agreement to ignore them.

Edited July 25, 2019 by wayniac

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, The Jabber Tzeentch said:

I don’t remember every major GT using them at all, at least not in UK from what I saw. Maybe the GW ones for what they were at the time but they weren’t competitive tourneys. 

Blackout, JustPlay, FaceHammer just to name a few. 

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

I've played with the Ghur realm rules, repeatedly. It doesn't backfire on you, ever, assuming you read the rules and bring a monster selection that allows you ensure the positioning you need. Effectively Ghur just rewards system mastery - do you know the available monsters better than your opponent? 

Well that’s your experience. 

But what about battleplans such as star strike, gifts from the gods, shifting objectives, relocation orb. Wherever you deploy your monster it has the potential to backfire as you don’t know where the objectives will be 

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, wayniac said:

In the US from what I saw, there was near-universal panning of the realm rules and all the major tournaments I'm aware of said no way, not using it.  At least from what I recall.   I could be mistaken though my memory is hazy from that period.

Fortunately the US got to see the end result of the UK events that used them and shied away from them.