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Kronos

The Tithe - Speculation.

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Posted (edited)

These heads are also shown in the second video ūüėä

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20190819_092712.jpg

Edited by Amradiel
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9 hours ago, Overread said:

Full reveal then would be a bit early considering that there's 2 other battletomes for factions which should be coming first. I'd wager we'll get another teaser and instead confirmed details on Orruks and Free Peoples unless GW is going to push this faction in between or before those two. 

Then again GW might put those two battletomes out at the same time. 

I wouldn't be surprised if they released Free Cities and Orruks at the same time. Perhaps even make a box ala Looncurse. Orcs vs Humans is such a classic concept. Probably sometime around October to match their "Orktober" meme.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, tupavko said:

I was looking at the rumor and the picture... i though it was a "stele" at first as a Rosetta Stone, but after looking at the picture it seems more as if the guy is actually a walking sarcophagus., and the rumor picmight be actually the back of it

sarc.jpg

The heads to the left are also the two from another rumor engine!

edit: oops I'm late, y'all are on the ball

Edited by CommissarRotke
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14 hours ago, Chikout said:

Pretty sure we are going to get a full reveal of the faction at Nova on August 28th.

that would be a sick reveal for my birth-day, though I don't play Death ūüėÖ

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31 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

The heads to the left are also the two from another rumor engine!

edit: oops I'm late, y'all are on the ball

At first I thought it was some sort of lich on a throne, perhaps being carried on a palaquin. But now I’m not sure. It could be someone facing away from the viewer, I.e. we’re seeing the figure’s back. In that case we have some sort of hero with a staff in one hand, a scroll in the other, and a tombstone/sarcophagus lid on its back. 

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If coffin boy is the judge then maybe the mortarch is the mortarch of executions? Or maybe there will be an executioner unit. Or maybe there are multiple judges and the mortarch is the mortarch of judgement? Probably a new character at this rate but the "past life I was a general, now I am an emperor" Fits really well for krell and Vlad. As much as I don't want coffin boy to be the mortarch it would be very nagash to have vlad carry around the coffin of isabella as punishment for getting buddy buddy with Karl during the endtimes.

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What if the general is in the sarcophagus and is just being carried around by a grunt?

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3 minutes ago, WookieLove said:

What if the general is in the sarcophagus and is just being carried around by a grunt?

If he's being carried around by a grunt then the grunt has left him high and dry in this picture!

emperor.png

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18 minutes ago, Dr Ben said:

If he's being carried around by a grunt then the grunt has left him high and dry in this picture!

emperor.png

How so?the priest(grunt) pictured above is carrying a sarcophagus which could have the actual character inside it.  Just another proposed theory of course. 

 

sarc.jpg

The reason I propose this theory is because in this picture it looks like the priest is turned around and on the backside of the sarcophagus, while the character is coming out of the other side. Notice the arm position, it doesn't quite seems to sink up with the skeletal figure facing front.It looks like a left hand seen from behind to me.

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Is that a symbol of a scorpion on the staff where the heads are hanging? 

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3 hours ago, Charly2912 said:

Is that a symbol of a scorpion on the staff where the heads are hanging? 

Wait, no, look closer. I  just realized it's an eye. Which is very common in Egyptian iconography..

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3 hours ago, WookieLove said:

How so?the priest(grunt) pictured above is carrying a sarcophagus which could have the actual character inside it.  Just another proposed theory of course. 

 

sarc.jpg

The reason I propose this theory is because in this picture it looks like the priest is turned around and on the backside of the sarcophagus, while the character is coming out of the other side. Notice the arm position, it doesn't quite seems to sink up with the skeletal figure facing front.It looks like a left hand seen from behind to me.

You are right! Well spotted!  The arm is on the other side!!! The judge/liche is on one side of the sarcophagus, and the arms are on the other side! 

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It seems you are all tracking the idea of it being some form of subordinate carrying the coffin. I wondered if the skeletal face we see was more decorative much like say tutankhamun’s sarcophagus and the famous face depiction on it. Also wondered if the subordinate is the narrator and the master that raised the army is the one being carried, more than likely with the hope of resurrection in some form or another through the tithe being collected. But hey all rumours and theories till we know more

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8 hours ago, WookieLove said:

How so?the priest(grunt) pictured above is carrying a sarcophagus which could have the actual character inside it.  Just another proposed theory of course. 

 

sarc.jpg

The reason I propose this theory is because in this picture it looks like the priest is turned around and on the backside of the sarcophagus, while the character is coming out of the other side. Notice the arm position, it doesn't quite seems to sink up with the skeletal figure facing front.It looks like a left hand seen from behind to me.

It's hard to tell in the edited image but if you look at the screenshot without the red lines you can see that the arm is seemingly covering the line depicting the edge of the gravestone/sarcophagus. Which implies that the arm is emerging from the same shadowy section as the face.  You might still be correct though, suppose we'll have to wait and see. 

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I see a scorpion before an oval, forming an eye of horus type shape, so plenty of deserty iconography, even if the candles are more gothic.

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8 hours ago, SilentSentinel said:

It's hard to tell in the edited image but if you look at the screenshot without the red lines you can see that the arm is seemingly covering the line depicting the edge of the gravestone/sarcophagus. Which implies that the arm is emerging from the same shadowy section as the face.  You might still be correct though, suppose we'll have to wait and see. 

The arm is indeed covering the edge of the sarcophagus which would mean it is coming out of it as well like you said, I don't think either of the arms are apart of anything other than whatever's inside of the sarcophagus. It could be that it drags it behind it, or it could be that it's some kind of powerful necromancer and moves the sarcophagus by conjuring a wave of bones/sand or something, there's really no way to tell at this point. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dirtnaps said:

The arm is indeed covering the edge of the sarcophagus which would mean it is coming out of it as well like you said, I don't think either of the arms are apart of anything other than whatever's inside of the sarcophagus. It could be that it drags it behind it, or it could be that it's some kind of powerful necromancer and moves the sarcophagus by conjuring a wave of bones/sand or something, there's really no way to tell at this point. 

Yeah pretty much, hopefully we get at least some more info at Nova. A proper reveal trailer would be great but that's probably just wishful thinking on my part, it'll likely be the 3rd tithe teaser.

Edited by SilentSentinel
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Posted (edited)

I love to speculate, and these trailers and new death army gives us so much to speculate about :)

I have to admit I am becoming quite hyped for this army. A good recipe to get largely disappointed  in the end, but for now I just enjoy the thrill of trying to figure out what this is about and think about the vague hint and clues they are giving us so far.

The safest assumption to make is that this al about bones an so it is reasonable I think to expect an army that is largely made out of skeletons, or bone constructs. No doubt there are alternatives, but for now I find it unlikely that  tithe of bones comes down to vampires or zombies.

In the first trailer the narrator refers to having rebuilt himself in his homeland. In 2nd one he speaks of the city he was born in. That gives me the strong feeling that this homeland and city has some significance, and as such more likely the army will have a strong cultural flavour over it. Reason for me, like many before me, to look specifically for clues about this homeland. This turns out to be not that easy, as things seem to point in all kind of directions.

The Music in the first trailer to begin with. I have listened to it over and over again now, and compared it with music in various movies. I am as certain as you can be certain about anything that this is Asian, and more specifically China (or perhaps Mongolian or Japan even.)  I really cannot hear anything Egyptian or middle eastern in it, and not Indian either (not 100% sure about the last though.) 

The buildings however doesn't look Chinese (or Mongolian) to me at all. It gives me the feeling of Angor Wat, which is a Hindu temple originally, so yeah could be Indian. Nothing Egyptian here either imho, unless you like to see a vague pyramid shape in the main building.

As for the accent used by the Narrator, I really cannot make much out of that other than they clearly try to make it sound a bit exotic. 

The second trailer shows what I think is part of the army itself. Not sure what to think of the silhouettes of the soldiers, nor their weapons. They seem to have hoods, which I wouldn't directly associate with Chinese or India, Egypt or anything Asian for that matter. 

For the weapons however, although the pictures are to vague to drop into conclusions, it easily can be one of those fedual Chinese weapons, I think

 

185917096_chineseweapons.png.363d86100d90ab8100d13110f4e601c9.png 

But maybe one can find similar weapons for Egypt or India..not sure. At least they don't look like regular medieval weapons we usually see.

Then the humans that are carrying the big plates with bones (harvest) out of the city. They look very alive to me, and wearing something on their head that looks a bit like a turban or something, Indian maybe, or can it be Egypt? (not what we see on the old paintings I think) 

Then for the Hero in the 2nd trailer. That one looks strange indeed. Not sure if I like it if it turns out to be a walking sarcophagus or it carrying its casket on its back like a turle. Maybe it floats, like Kurdoss on his throne?

If I had to guess I would say he just carrying this big tombstone (the rumour picture doesn't seem to indicate a sarcophagus or casket, more like tombstone or a stele (Egyptian memorial stone.) I like the idea of a servant/priestcarrying him on his back, but hard to tell from the pictures.

Either way, this stone regardless if it is it a sarcophagus or a tombstone seem to rule out Indian or hindu theme, as they don't burry their deaths but burn them instead as far as I am aware of. Ancient Chinese do use tombstone, but I am not sure if they look anything like this one. Also notice he has some kind of "tail in his "hair" with bones?...any clue in what direction that takes us, any culture that is known for this? Chinese?

To cut a long story short, Me don't know Nothing ;) There seem to be indication of different cultures and aesthetics. What pops into my mind now, no clue if it makes any sense, is that if this army is going from city to city, harvesting bones (I assume to grow in size), they might collect bones from all kind of cultures and maybe even races, and so the army itself eventually is made out of all kind of skeletons from different cultures and/or races. That would probably even allow the more gothic style deathrattle to make part of it. At least it would explain why the Trailers give so many hints that seem to be a bit contradictive to me.

Just my 2 cents,

 

Oh just realized...The narrator also speaks of himself of being an emperor (in death.) Now although there are many civilizations from the past that had an emperor, first thing that comes to mind when speaking off emperors (apart from Rome maybe), is China and also Japan as a good second

Edited by Lowki
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The Rumor engine with the candles closely resembles the ATON from the AMARNA period in Egypt.  During that short period, a pharaoh spurned all the old Egyptian gods and created his own monotheistic religion worshiping the sun as the god Aton.  Depictions of the Aton were the sun with rays of light shining down on people (making crops grow, giving life, etc.)  After his death this religion was quickly abandoned and the people returned to worshiping the old Egyptian gods.  We have lots of examples from this period because the heretic pharaoh had an entire new capital city built that was abandoned to the desert after his death and so many artistic pieces were protected by the sand.

Anyway, what I see is the Aton (itself not pictured) shining rays of light down on a pyramid with an entrance and 3 symbols.  VERY Egyptian - though I doubt the designers were trying to match the Amarna period, just Egyptian symbols generally.   I have never held out hope that the tomb kings were returning, but I could see some nods to Egypt to allow some plastic kit units to be used in this new IP army.

Amarna period art: 

Spoiler

Image result for amarna period aton

Image result for amarna period aton

 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Goddin said:

The Rumor engine with the candles closely resembles the ATON from the AMARNA period in Egypt.  During that short period, a pharaoh spurned all the old Egyptian gods and created his own monotheistic religion worshiping the sun as the god Aton.  Depictions of the Aton were the sun with rays of light shining down on people (making crops grow, giving life, etc.)  After his death this religion was quickly abandoned and the people returned to worshiping the old Egyptian gods.  We have lots of examples from this period because the heretic pharaoh had an entire new capital city built that was abandoned to the desert after his death and so many artistic pieces were protected by the sand.

Anyway, what I see is the Aton (itself not pictured) shining rays of light down on a pyramid with an entrance and 3 symbols.  VERY Egyptian - though I doubt the designers were trying to match the Amarna period, just Egyptian symbols generally.   I have never held out hope that the tomb kings were returning, but I could see some nods to Egypt to allow some plastic kit units to be used in this new IP army.

Amarna period art: 

  Reveal hidden contents

Image result for amarna period aton

Image result for amarna period aton

 

Yes, it is easy to see how these could be sunrays, while the triangle building below it can be seen as a pyramid as well. What I miss on the Rumor Engine however, is the sun itself. On the pictures from the Aton period I think it is always there, which make sense as why make a picture of that one god, without showing  the god itself.  Doesn't mean GW artist couldn't have used their creative freedom to leave it out of course

Edited by Lowki
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1 minute ago, Lowki said:

snip: What I miss on the Rumor Engine however, is the sun itself. On the pictures from the Aton period I think it is always there, which make sense as why make a picture of that one god, without showing  the god itself. 

I think you give too much credit to the designers =).  I think they just wanted Egyptian-looking symbols, and omitted the Aton for space on a miniature.  If I were to give the designers more credit than I think they are due, I would say because the Aton was a god and this character will be a servant of Nagash, who does not allow his servants to worship anyone else.... so take the aesthetic without all the meaning behind it.

Basically, I think we know nothing at this point - but I could see a nod to Egypt as I think GW was surprised how much love the TKs are still receiving this long after being swatted.

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57 minutes ago, Goddin said:

The Rumor engine with the candles closely resembles the ATON from the AMARNA period in Egypt.  During that short period, a pharaoh spurned all the old Egyptian gods and created his own monotheistic religion worshiping the sun as the god Aton.  Depictions of the Aton were the sun with rays of light shining down on people (making crops grow, giving life, etc.)  After his death this religion was quickly abandoned and the people returned to worshiping the old Egyptian gods.  We have lots of examples from this period because the heretic pharaoh had an entire new capital city built that was abandoned to the desert after his death and so many artistic pieces were protected by the sand.

Anyway, what I see is the Aton (itself not pictured) shining rays of light down on a pyramid with an entrance and 3 symbols.  VERY Egyptian - though I doubt the designers were trying to match the Amarna period, just Egyptian symbols generally.   I have never held out hope that the tomb kings were returning, but I could see some nods to Egypt to allow some plastic kit units to be used in this new IP army.

Amarna period art: 

  Hide contents

Image result for amarna period aton

Image result for amarna period aton

 

I actually could see this being part of the inspiration. A new religion (the worship of nagash) replacing the worship of the old death gods and with black pyramid iconography instead of sun iconography.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Goddin said:

I think you give too much credit to the designers =).  I think they just wanted Egyptian-looking symbols, and omitted the Aton for space on a miniature.  If I were to give the designers more credit than I think they are due, I would say because the Aton was a god and this character will be a servant of Nagash, who does not allow his servants to worship anyone else.... so take the aesthetic without all the meaning behind it.

Oh I dunno,  there's a suprising amount of former art historians working or GW and folks like Jes Goodwin and John Blanche have a real depth of knowledge. Amarna period art is probably the best known kind of Egyptian art in the mainstream anyway and was discussed a lot in 19th/early 20th c. artistic circles. Akhenaten is widely known (rightly or wrongly) as 'the first monotheist' and I can see someone emulating his replacement of polytheistic gods in Nagash usurping previous gods. Or as you say the designers could simply have been reaching for 'generic Egyptian' style, which in most people's minds is basically the motifs of Amarna art anyway.

One thing I would note above all though is that GW and the design studio are really going out of their way not to make 'fantasy versions of X'. When  Maxime Pastourel was talking about designing the Warcry warbands, he was emphatic that they didn't want to make a pastiche of any one culture but wanted instead to use motifs from multiple RL cultures to get a particular feel or atmosphere across. You've probably seen that image shared around (and linked here: https://i.redd.it/wgwsfh1c2tb31.png) of the Cypher Lords pointing out Chinese, Japanese, Roman and Egyptian aspects meant to convey a wealthy, cultured imperial feel.

There's more depth there. More interest and room for designers to play around without it getting washed out quickly; I think of Jes Goodwin grumbling about folks mistaking the Ultramarines for space Romans when he made sure that they had the freedom to draw from the larger 'Classical' grab bag. There's also less risk of it being, to quote Jes Goodwin again, "culturally appropriative or just a bit naff".

I think that's what we can expect from these new Death guys. Not Tomb Kings, not 'undead Mongols', but some new (and copyrightable) faction which draws from multiple cultures to make a defined AoS-specific thing, one which probably has overtones of ritual and antiquity and which may come off as vaguely 'Eastern-inflected'.

Edited by sandlemad
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Posted (edited)

I think we can be pretty certain that the designers at Games Workshop know about the Amarna Heresy. They have historically had a lot of history enthusiasts on their team, and I don't believe for a moment that they just decided to name a major period of 40K history "the Horus Heresy" for no reason. Akhenaten's reign isn't the only religious movement to be known as "the X Heresy" but its a pretty big one, particularly if you are invoking ancient egyptian culture with Horus at the same time...

Its worth noting that while Aten is usually depicted as a sun disk, which is absent from that stele, there are a set of candles mounted on top of it! Maybe the religion requires the light of the sun god to be represented with actual light rather than being depicted graphically.

Edited by EccentricCircle
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sandlemad said:

 

One thing I would note above all though is that GW and the design studio are really going out of their way not to make 'fantasy versions of X'. When  Maxime Pastourel was talking about designing the Warcry warbands, he was emphatic that they didn't want to make a pastiche of any one culture but wanted instead to use motifs from multiple RL cultures to get a particular feel or atmosphere across. You've probably seen that image shared around (and linked here: https://i.redd.it/wgwsfh1c2tb31.png) of the Cypher Lords pointing out Chinese, Japanese, Roman and Egyptian aspects meant to convey a wealthy, cultured imperial feel.

There's more depth there. More interest and room for designers to play around without it getting washed out quickly; I think of Jes Goodwin grumbling about folks mistaking the Ultramarines for space Romans when he made sure that they had the freedom to draw from the larger 'Classical' grab bag. There's also less risk of it being, to quote Jes Goodwin again, "culturally appropriative or just a bit naff".

I think that's what we can expect from these new Death guys. Not Tomb Kings, not 'undead Mongols', but some new (and copyrightable) faction which draws from multiple cultures to make a defined AoS-specific thing, one which probably has overtones of ritual and antiquity and which may come off as vaguely 'Eastern-inflected'.

I think there is much truth in what you say. Indeed I wouldn't expect they will just copy everything you can find in history books about an ancient culture, replace flesh and blood, by skull and bones and call it an army,  something you may say they  did for Tomb Kings in the past. So I guess whatever the theme maybe, I don't think it will include things like sphinxes, Chinese dragons or exact copies of  uniforms and armour belonging to one and the same  culture.

Still, I think there is often a clear source of inspiration for many of the existing GW armies, including relatively recent ones.  DoK, has a very medusa/greek flavour imho, Nighthaunt also has a very classical gothic / mid victorian feel over it (grimghast reapers are literally how they depict the ghost of Christmas yet to come in many movies and books) and even some of the Warcry bands like the splintered fang (greek/Spartan)  and  untamed beasts (Conan the Barbarian). In fact also  the announced new Ogre Tyrant still has this Mongolian Inspired look if you ask me. But I have to say all of them have little details added or changes that makes them very GW and different from anything else around. And of course there are also examples of armies that are more a mix of many things, or a thing on its own.  I just wonder if the often heard Copyright argument really holds true in the end. I think it is indeed more because of the freedom and satisfaction  it gives the designers.

That said, I still expect this new army to have a theme that is inspired by one or few recognizable cultural aspects. Or maybe I just hope they do, because I have to admit I have a strong preference for armies that do. :)

Reminds me of something I like to add to my speculations in the previous post. The tail the hero has on its head in the 2nd teaser. I just realized that this is something that was very common in some regions of china of course , in fact even required during some period in ancient China. Stupid that I didn't think of that right away (you can learn from the movies alone). So I think that apart from the music in the first teaser, this maybe even the strongest indication there might be at least some Chinese aspects to this army.

As for the Egyptian aspects. As much as I would like to see them return in some form, to be honest I see hardly any evidence for it. Apart from the mentioned sunrays and pyramid on the stone, and possibly a sarcophagus...I see nothing that hints in that direction. Not the music, not the army silhouettes, the city, or anything else.  I fail to see mummies in the 2nd trailer, and I am not so sure if that thing on the staff is a scorpion. It could be, but than what supposed to be the tail is actually the hook that has one of the kings heads attached. Pyramids are not exclusive to Egypt (China has them as well i.e.), and worshipping the sun you see in basically every culture. Of course very well possible that they just made a mix of several cultural aspects, and give a nod in the direction of TK fans too. 

We will see, and in the meanwhile I keep speculating :D

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Lowki

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