The Tithe - Speculation.

[Beliman]

18 minutes ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

What can I say, I'm all for them trying new things but sometimes classics are classics.

GW tries things and sometimes it lands (more often than not). They absolutely got it right with the Nighthaunt, spectacular miniatures. Daughters of Khaine, very nice evolution of the Dark Elf aesthetic.  The Fyreslayers could have gone without the extra Y in their name, but overall, solid designs (even if sometimes their weapons were too much to look at in terms of phisicality). The Sylvaneth looked great. Most of the new Tzeentch acolytes and Nurgle followers are amazing concepts full of character. Minis like these make me want to start a Nurgle army, just because they ooze (sorry) personality. They even did great miniatures on a... controversial concept with the fish elves... but sometimes they get a concept out that's flawed. Let's see:

- Most of the new Khorne units look absolutely and irredeemably stupid, especially the Slaughterpriest and the Skullreapers. Many of them are so disproportioned that the sheer dread of their lore is lost on those enormous legs and funny helmets that don't cover the mouth (ironically adding in to the humanity of faces that should have none. Chaos warriors have always had bizarre looking helmets for a reason). I don't like either that they are usually wearing heavy armour from the waist down, but wear their chest and arms bare. Cognitive dissonance, I guess.

- Some of the Ironjawz ideas had problems, mostly the armour looked like random patches of armour strapped in place willy-nilly, and usually they were modeled metal over flesh, without chainmail and cloth between at all. The Warchanter especially. Makes little sense, but this, paired with the "hit me and my armour falls down like the Iron Man 3 suit" don't make for great visual implications. I think the designers had a similar thought, because when it came time to release the Shadespire orc band, they went for a traditional Black Ork armour design instead of the new Ironjawz theme. Many of the new skirmish bands doubled down on the successful concepts and threw away what didn't work.

- Hearthguard Berzerkers and most Slayer units with chain-link weapons on top of other weapons. They don't look cool, rather they look mightly impractical.

- Steampunk dwarves floating on metal balls. Yeah.

So, do I want new things? Yes. But sometimes people change things that worked just for the sake of change, and without a better replacement; it does feel like this is meant to replace the old skeleton-and-zombie foot soldier. And these are true-and-tried concept that GW has sculpted marvelously.

As I said, plase, do release new things. After all, many of the fish elves came in handy when I wanted to create a post-EndTimes Old World Elvish floating city. I couldn't have done it without them, and I paid them money, so they're doing something right for sure. It's just that, in this particular instance, I'm no blown by the concept.

Hey!! Most of your points are just positive ones that "really worked" for me. To each their own.

 

[Cèsar de Quart]

12 minutes ago, CDM said:

You've come to the wrong site and the wrong company.  It's ok you were looking for mantic games and the 9th age... you're welcome

Maybe. Too early to tell, though, GW is taking a lot of steps towards something great, but the Mortal Realms have not been fully realised yet.

One of the reasons I started visiting this site is because the places I used to lurk at became filled with bile towards AoS, and I wanted to see what the "other side" thought and said. Is this "the wrong site"?

11 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Hey!! Most of your points are just positive ones that "really worked" for me. To each their own.

 

To each their own, yes.

Maybe I have the low-key, plausible (not realistic) grimy fantasy of the Old World too ingrained in my brain. 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Cèsar de Quart

[Carnelian]

46 minutes ago, Cèsar de Quart said:

What can I say, I'm all for them trying new things but sometimes classics are classics.

GW tries things and sometimes it lands (more often than not). They absolutely got it right with the Nighthaunt, spectacular miniatures. Daughters of Khaine, very nice evolution of the Dark Elf aesthetic.  The Fyreslayers could have gone without the extra Y in their name, but overall, solid designs (even if sometimes their weapons were too much to look at in terms of phisicality). The Sylvaneth looked great. Most of the new Tzeentch acolytes and Nurgle followers are amazing concepts full of character. Minis like these make me want to start a Nurgle army, just because they ooze (sorry) personality. They even did great miniatures on a... controversial concept with the fish elves... but sometimes they get a concept out that's flawed. Let's see:

- Most of the new Khorne units look absolutely and irredeemably stupid, especially the Slaughterpriest and the Skullreapers. Many of them are so disproportioned that the sheer dread of their lore is lost on those enormous legs and funny helmets that don't cover the mouth (ironically adding in to the humanity of faces that should have none. Chaos warriors have always had bizarre looking helmets for a reason). I don't like either that they are usually wearing heavy armour from the waist down, but wear their chest and arms bare. Cognitive dissonance, I guess.

- Some of the Ironjawz ideas had problems, mostly the armour looked like random patches of armour strapped in place willy-nilly, and usually they were modeled metal over flesh, without chainmail and cloth between at all. The Warchanter especially. Makes little sense, but this, paired with the "hit me and my armour falls down like the Iron Man 3 suit" don't make for great visual implications. I think the designers had a similar thought, because when it came time to release the Shadespire orc band, they went for a traditional Black Ork armour design instead of the new Ironjawz theme. Many of the new skirmish bands doubled down on the successful concepts and threw away what didn't work.

- Hearthguard Berzerkers and most Slayer units with chain-link weapons on top of other weapons. They don't look cool, rather they look mightly impractical.

- Steampunk dwarves floating on metal balls. Yeah.

So, do I want new things? Yes. But sometimes people change things that worked just for the sake of change, and without a better replacement; it does feel like this is meant to replace the old skeleton-and-zombie foot soldier. And these are true-and-tried concept that GW has sculpted marvelously.

As I said, plase, do release new things. After all, many of the fish elves came in handy when I wanted to create a post-EndTimes Old World Elvish floating city. I couldn't have done it without them, and I paid them money, so they're doing something right for sure. It's just that, in this particular instance, I'm no blown by the concept.

For me Ironjawz are a stone cold hit with no second thoughts at all! So consider this not agreed! 🤣 

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, KriticalKhan said:

Even if there are only a few per kit, it takes less than 15 bucks to get the materials to cast your own

I don't believe this forum allows such blatant support of straight up theft.

[Lord marcus]

Just now, Sleboda said:

I don't believe this forum allows such blatant support of straight up theft.

Recasting for personal use is fine. Recasting with intent to sell is another matter.

[Sleboda]

3 minutes ago, Lord marcus said:

Recasting for personal use is fine. Recasting with intent to sell is another matter.

Common misconception. The idea of making money or not has very, very little to do with the legality.

Selling just makes it worse.

Essentially:

You want a thing the company makes. That thing is something they sell you. Instead of paying them for the thing they own, you decide to copy it. You don't have the right to make a copy, they do. Every casting not only denies them profit in something they own and determine how to sell, but diminishes the brand's integrity.

The key though is that you wanted it, they own it, and you decided to just take it instead of pay them for it.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Sleboda

[Panzer]

3 hours ago, Getthefeckback said:

With the people who are upset about the models, I would like to see some their ideas of what they wanted in a drawing. Cause from what I see, people explaining what aesthetics they should be, it's kinda hard to picture what they want without looking like TK.  Some say it looks cartoony, silly and have weird smiles, fair enough. ( need lips to do so)

I just wanted a death army and don't care about what they look like. If I wanted skeletons then I'll buy a box of the old ones.

Well Tomb Kings would've been great but I was already content with this not being such a release.

 

What I would've prefered for them would be if they were classic skeletons instead of weird abstract bone constructs. Keep the samurai and mongolian theme and everything. Just change the one thing and I would like this release a ton more.
However if the skulls from the skull pack are the right size I can definitely see me picking some up and replacing all the heads. Maybe still not getting the guys with four arms though.

 

Alternatively a terracotta/golem/puppet aesthetic like the Mortarch hasgoing  but for the whole army would've been great too.

[Cèsar de Quart]

7 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Common misconception. The idea of making money or not has very, very little to do with the legality.

Selling just makes it worse.

+++

It is legal in the United States and United Kingdom to record live TV for personal use. In U.S. law, recording TV programs for later viewing is protected under "Fair Use." It is legal to physically give out copies of TV recordings to other people, but it is illegal to distribute those copies through peer-to-peer file sharing on the Internet.

+++

Doesn't this apply to the recasting of miniatures for personal use?

Edited August 29, 2019 by Cèsar de Quart

[Ravinsild]

I like it. I think I’ll start an army of them for myself

[Overread]

10 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Common misconception. The idea of making money or not has very, very little to do with the legality.

Selling just makes it worse.

Essentially:

You want a thing the company makes. That thing is something they sell you. Instead of paying them for the thing they own, you decide to copy it. You don't have the right to make a copy, they do. Every casting not only denies them profit in something they own and determine how to sell, but diminishes the brand's integrity.

The key though is that you wanted it, they own it, and you decided to just take it instead of pay them for it.

Actually the laws will vary country to country on specifics and can often be quite varied even down to specific product groupings.

Though the production and distribution (free or paid) of a copyright product that you do not have permission from the copyright holder to produce and distribute is illegal in most countries (even China, the difference there is that they don't recognise or respect international copyright within their own country - or at least the laws are hazy and enforcement spotty). 

Most gamer forums shy away from any talk of production of copyright parts even if just for home use (most things you can copy for home use/backups). Since it can often only encourage copyright infringement and someone will start making them for local gamers etc.... Plus, for the logical and moral reasons you raise; that we'd all rather we bought from the model companies so that they continue to get money to invest into production of more models, lore, games etc.. that we all love and play. 

[Sleboda]

There difference (I'm not a lawyer, but I have a few friends who specialize in copyright law) is two-fold: (happy I be corrected by actual experts)

1. These are different kinds of products and there are or may be different agreements in place within the law to govern the slightly different nature of them. Broadcast TV is essentially a free product, paid for by advertisers. That's the profit model, so once it's been broadcast, it's paid for. Note the difference between a broadcast and, say, a DVD of Season 1 of Game of Thrones. That's a horse of a different color, and leads me to ...

 

2. Each pyhsical model you copy denies the rights holder their profit on a box of the kit that contains the head. This is not the case for a TV broadcast. Look at it more simply: If copying a head is ok, why not an entire model? If you want 20 of a model that comes in boxes of 5, surely it's not ok to cast 4 copies each of entire models, right? A physical product company's whole profit model is based on selling lots of physical product. If they were not protected by law, they would either not bother to make the item or would charge muuuuuuch more for the item, knowing people were entitled to copy it.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Sleboda

[Lord marcus]

21 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

There difference (I'm not a lawyer, but I have a few friends who specialize in copyright law) is two-fold: (happy I be corrected by actual experts)

1. These are different kinds of products and there are or may be different agreements in place within the law to govern the slightly different nature of them. Broadcast TV is essentially a free product, paid for by advertisers. That's the profit model, so once it's been broadcast, it's paid for. Note the difference between a broadcast and, say, a DVD of Season 1 of Game of Thrones. That's a horse of a different color, and leads me to ...

 

2. Each pyhsical model you copy denies the rights holder their profit on a box of the kit that contains the head. This is not the case for a TV broadcast. Look at it more simply: If copying a head is ok, why not an entire model? If you want 20 of a model that comes in boxes of 5, surely it's not ok to cast 4 copies each of entire models, right? A physical product company's whole profit model is based on selling lots of physical product. If they were not protected by law, they would either not bother to make the item or would charge muuuuuuch more for the item, knowing people were entitled to copy it.

But we were not talking about full models with the OB, we were talking about alternate heads that we are assuming are in limited supply in the box.

 

For all we know there might be enough per box

[KriticalKhan]

3 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I don't believe this forum allows such blatant support of straight up theft.

blatant support of straight up theft.

straight up theft.

theft.

 

 

[Sleboda]

3 hours ago, Lord marcus said:

But we were not talking about full models with the OB, we were talking about alternate heads that we are assuming are in limited supply in the box.

 

For all we know there might be enough per box

Irrelevant. GW still hold the rights to all the parts.

If you want more of the toys, buy more of the toys, don't steal them.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Sleboda

[Eldarain]

Maybe we should just kill this topic as there is nothing left to speculate on amd it's just a recasting argument now.

[Lord marcus]

11 minutes ago, Eldarain said:

Maybe we should just kill this topic as there is nothing left to speculate on amd it's just a recasting argument now.

We still have to speculate on any non-previewed OBR.

[Eldarain]

1 minute ago, Lord marcus said:

We still have to speculate on any non-previewed OBR.

That's true. They must have a Behemoth. What seems likely? Bone Giant? Some kind of Self propelled Construct War Wagon could be cool. 

[Kyriakin]

2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Irrelevant. GW still hold the rights to all the parts.

If you want more of the toys, buy more of the toys, don't steal them.

He did "buy" them. In this scenario, he has bought one OBR toy to represent one OBR toy on the table.

Other add-ons could be greenstuffed, bits from other companies' models, bought from bitz sites, self-casts, etc. It's just window dressing.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Kyriakin

[Getthefeckback]

Wow this went off topic

 

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++

A couple of things....

Recasting - Recasting is bad. Don’t do it and we don’t want it discussed on this forum.

Going Off Topic - We Love discussion on this forum but we like it to be on topic. This is the last chance for this topic, especially as there is a Bonereapers topic in the Death part of the forum. I’m not locking just in case there is any more about the “Tithe” like a boxed set or campaign. 

[Dolinarius]

2 hours ago, Eldarain said:

That's true. They must have a Behemoth. What seems likely? Bone Giant? Some kind of Self propelled Construct War Wagon could be cool. 

mmhh i would prefer something more animal-ish like a scorpion (yeah I know, TK related, but i love scorpions  ) or maybe they bring dread abyssals to the board as a single miniature?

Does anyone noticed the little legs of the catapult? Awesome and somehow creepy like a centipede. So there are already animal related elements in the design. Maybe the behemoth also goes in this direction?

Or a bone-patchwork-dinosaur - can we have one? please please please????

Edited August 30, 2019 by Dolinarius

[Black_Templar_Lad]

49 minutes ago, Dolinarius said:

mmhh i would prefer something more animal-ish like a scorpion (yeah I know, TK related, but i love scorpions  ) or maybe they bring dread abyssals to the board as a single miniature?

Does anyone noticed the little legs of the catapult? Awesome and somehow creepy like a centipede. So there are already animal related elements in the design. Maybe the behemoth also goes in this direction?

Or a bone-patchwork-dinosaur - can we have one? please please please????

I definitely reckon the blurred thing in the background of the book is a beasty. 

I really hope there is one. A behemoth that had the souls of great beasts stitched together would be so bloody cool. 😍

[JackStreicher]

11 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Common misconception. The idea of making money or not has very, very little to do with the legality.

Selling just makes it worse.

Essentially:

You want a thing the company makes. That thing is something they sell you. Instead of paying them for the thing they own, you decide to copy it. You don't have the right to make a copy, they do. Every casting not only denies them profit in something they own and determine how to sell, but diminishes the brand's integrity.

The key though is that you wanted it, they own it, and you decided to just take it instead of pay them for it.

That varies from country to country. In Germany it is legal for personal use.

you buy a model, you own the model and you can do with it whatever you want. But you cannot sell copies of it due to copyright since at that point you „rob“ the producing company of potential profit.

Edited August 30, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Sleboda]

4 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

He did "buy" them. In this scenario, he has bought one OBR toy to represent one OBR toy on the table.

Other add-ons could be greenstuffed, bits from other companies' models, bought from bitz sites, self-casts, etc. It's just window dressing.

I'll make this my last comment on it since I'm failing to get the point through.

He bought one copy of each part by buying the box. Nothing legally says that after you use some of what you bought, it's ok to copy the rest of what you bought but decided not to use.

In other words, each part (or, in another way, the entire contents) of the product is still protected from illegal copying. That he didn't use some parts does not make copying those parts legal.

In other other words, we the consumer don't get to make up justifications to selectively ignore the rights of the manufacturer.

@JackStreicher "you cannot sell copies of it due to copyright since at that point you „rob“ the producing company of potential profit."

Obviously I don't know German law, but if that's it, then copying the parts violates it. It's pretty simple to connect the dots: You want three of a thing that you only get one of by purchasing the set. The way to get to more is to but two more sets. If you copy the one you have, you have denied the producing company its profit. Are you saying that in Germany you could buy a single complete model one time and recast it 29 times to make a unit of 30? I'm not sure how it why GW would do business in Germany if that's legal.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Sleboda

[JackStreicher]

15 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Are you saying that in Germany you could buy a single complete model one time and recast it 29 times to make a unit of 30? I'm not sure how it why GW would do business in Germany if that's legal.

That is correct. GW is doing business since most people rather buy a model than go through the hassle of recasting (which costs time, needs equipment and usually turns out worse than the original).

also once you recast for yourself you are not going to cost the company anything since you weren‘t going to buy more from them anyway. Whereas the American law focusses on the company and wants it to get every cent out of every possible scenario (Companies first, citizens second - thx lobbyism) the German law focuses on the bought object, your rights with what you do with your possession and when you would hurt the company with your possession. This climaxes in „you can sell, trade, copy, destroy, burn your Model, you can copy it and parts of it,  but selling the copy is a direct loss for the company“. Also „plagiatism“

Edited August 30, 2019 by JackStreicher