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AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion


Malakithe

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5 hours ago, Malakree said:

Ok so, exclude all the cities of sigmar units as we know they are also getting a warscroll update. What other army that isn't garbage has profiles as bad for the points that we do?

The WAAAGH! stacking is almost definitely going to go. Not least because it's not fun to play with/against.

My whole point was that warscroll updates/buffs across the board is relying on the Waaagh bomb. If it is going away (which would be a good thing, as you mentioned), it would obviously happen. I just dont know if they would trash such a fundamental thing about IJ

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I think the major change we will see will be the abilities' effectiveness extending until our next phase (Waagh abilities and Warchanters prayer) like all other armies abilities do. This alone will massively buff the army. Also I would be surprised if some MW output generation (e.g gruntas charge) is not included.  It is not acceptable that goblin bouncing tomatoes can cause mortal wounds on a charge but gruntas can't

Other than these changes I do not expect many radical changes in the warscroll stats.

But let's see...

In either case, post GH2019 I feel I am playing a much more powerful army.  Waagh under bloodtoofs has become extremely powerful and easy to pull off.  I have played some rematches post GH2019 and easily won some previously impossible matchups.

things are looking good right now for IJ :)

Edited by Planar
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I'm happy with this. I've always wanted to build a Bonesplitters army too, but felt they had too few options (as if the IJ doesn't). Now that I can mix and match, the deal is sealed (and I just went and ordered a box of Savage Orruks to get started - via a Warcry warband of course).

Mechanics wise, here are my predictions (well more like a wishlist):

  • Waaagh! spamming will be over. It'll be more reliable, but cannot be stacked anymore. Most likely will also carry over to the next hero phase.
  • Gore-gruntas will have their 8" limitation removed and they will just get a flat bonus on the turn they charge. Gruntas will get -1 rend to their attacks.
  • 'Ardboyz will finally get the "armed to da teef" rule, allowing them to choose their weapon loadout at the beginning of the combat phase two choppas for +1 attacks, big choppas for -1 rend or shields for a save reroll (of 1).
  • Warchanter's buff will persist until next hero phase.
  • Weirdnob shaman will get 5+ "feel no pain" save.
  • Brutes will get more rend on their weapons or some other way to increase their damage output while not increasing their already impressive amount of attacks.
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I am extremely happy that we are getting an update, I myself will probably stick to pure Ironjawz but perhaps seeing the rules will force me to reconsider. Ironjawz need that warscroll update so badly.

One of the things I am most wishful for is that they make our Warchanter's frenzy of violence ability into a flat (lets say 12") aura and perhaps also buff movement speed within that aura (he's got them pumped up for a fight, they're gonna want to get right in there!)

Another interesting way to go would be to introduce orruk "prayers" for him which is probably unlikely but I think would be pretty cool and fitting close enough with the lore. 

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I'm pumped,  I love playing my Splittas and the chance to paint some ironjaws up is a win win.  

Very keen to see our spells and endless spells.  

Super keen to delve into our new synergies. 

Ultra keen to crush all before us in a tide of ork muscle. 

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The way they talk about Whaag energy and ways to build and use it sounds interesting. It sounds a bit like Blood Tithe, and could very well be almost a copy paste, with the more fighting the more points to use for different effects. I do hope it is somewhat interactive and not just a static system like DoK. I am looking forward to see how this pans out.

They did manage to make some interesting stuff with fyreslayers despite a limited model range, the lodges etc can vastly change how the army plays and I hope that will be true to IJ as well (if we look past that 1 fyreslayer battalion which is better than all else). 

Will be interesting to see how IJ will work alone and then together with BS, considering there will be 3 allegiances in the book.

Very much looking forward to see new warscrolls, they are badly needed, altough a bit disappointed with no models announced. Same goes for the new cities of sigmar too, had hoped for some proper AoS age regular humans/empire update. 

Maybe we will see a new hero or some such in a box set down the line instead.

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35 minutes ago, Killamike said:

Ultra keen to crush all before us in a tide of ork muscle. 

So much this. I've been sidelining my IJs for a while now and playing with SCE instead. Time to put the shiny lightning boyz in the back burner and bring out da WAAAGH!!!

Edited by tom_gore
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1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

The way they talk about Whaag energy and ways to build and use it sounds interesting. It sounds a bit like Blood Tithe, and could very well be almost a copy paste, with the more fighting the more points to use for different effects. I do hope it is somewhat interactive and not just a static system like DoK. I am looking forward to see how this pans out.

Apparently some people spoke to GW at the event and they said the Waaagh Energies will be a way to summon in more Orruks. That sounds super juicy! 

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8 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Apparently some people spoke to GW at the event and they said the Waaagh Energies will be a way to summon in more Orruks. That sounds super juicy! 

Aw really, yes summoning is strong, but it feels like they introduce it everywhere and the pessimist voice in me says that this is an indirect way to have everyone not just buy a 2k army, but also a 500-1000 pts sideboard to summon in as well, makes good business sense. 

But just look at Khorne, where blood tithe is both effects and summoning, and the way the game is played, getting more models on the board is nearly always best, which is a bit of a shame. I'd like the Whaag energy to empower shaman spells, or make the boyz way more dangerous.

Oh well, I guess anything is better than the current stacking in a blob "mechanic" but summoning will be a disappontment to me regardless if true, I'd prefer different options to manipulate the battlefield. I guess I am looking a gift horse in the mouth though ;)

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Just now, Scurvydog said:

Aw really, yes summoning is strong, but it feels like they introduce it everywhere and the pessimist voice in me says that this is an indirect way to have everyone not just buy a 2k army, but also a 500-1000 pts sideboard to summon in as well, makes good business sense. 

But just look at Khorne, where blood tithe is both effects and summoning, and the way the game is played, getting more models on the board is nearly always best, which is a bit of a shame. I'd like the Whaag energy to empower shaman spells, or make the boyz way more dangerous.

Oh well, I guess anything is better than the current stacking in a blob "mechanic" but summoning will be a disappontment to me regardless if true, I'd prefer different options to manipulate the battlefield. I guess I am looking a gift horse in the mouth though ;)

You rarely need that much sideboard models with Khorne as you can throw your daemons first in the fray and as they die, summon them right back. I believe the same happens with Orruks (since I don't think Waaagh energy accumulates if there is no fightin' and dyin').

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Well it will be interesting to see how that works, summoning depends a lot on when and where you can summon, an unlike seraphon and demons etc I do not see Orruks just materialising out of thin air, but if you have to wait a turn or two for points to summon something, and then got to go in from a table edge, well then a new unit of ardboyz will not see much action I think, but I will look forward to see how they explain/handle that.

Most importantly make Gordrakk great (not again, he was never great sadly) ;)

 

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So for hobby purpose each greenskin lover should be quite happy about 2019 so far.

After getting my new Gloomspite Gitz up to 1000 points i can't help but scroll through all the bonesplitterz models... I always imagined Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz in one army, i think it's very thematic, but bonesplitterz and ironjawz are for themselves very coherent, too.

So the only task for this book should be to be very coherent for a full IJ or full BS army, but also make it great to field a mixed army in a more epic "total" scale. The name "Da Great Waaagh!" for the allegiance gives hope and shows the lore point of view i think. It seems much more epic.  And i'm hyped about sub-factions, theres way more then Bloodtoofs and Ironsunz in the old book, e.g. dethtoofs or bloodgrins. I'm certain Bonesplitterz are similiar.

But i'm also a bit scared, gloomspite gitz is pretty much grots + flavour, with flavour being more grots, squigs, troggs or spiders. A real Gloomspite Gitz "conglomerat" is very unsatisfying as the rules are extremly restricted on keywords.

5-6 sub-factions for IJ and BS, allegiance abilities, artefacts, spell lore and command traits for each of the three allegiances, and less restrictive keywords than in gloomspite gitz (e.g. instead of <IRONJAWZ> to <ORRUK>, so you can use warchanter for bonesplitterz for example) would make that tome an awesome book.

Edit: Btw, i expect a total rework on at least all Ironjawz Warscrolls (maybe even weapon options on ardboys, as they are absolutly unique right now and dont fit the standard. But @tom_gore's idea with "armed to da teef" is excellent!) and i really hope Waaagh will be rewritten.

Edited by DerZauberer
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11 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Well it will be interesting to see how that works, summoning depends a lot on when and where you can summon, an unlike seraphon and demons etc I do not see Orruks just materialising out of thin air, but if you have to wait a turn or two for points to summon something, and then got to go in from a table edge, well then a new unit of ardboyz will not see much action I think, but I will look forward to see how they explain/handle that.

Most importantly make Gordrakk great (not again, he was never great sadly) ;)

 

I think it will come from table edge. It makes sense that nearby Orruks get drawn in on the Waaagh energies. There was a clash between Chaos and Orruks where it was explained how more and more got drawn in.

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So I played against skaven last night and won due to the 30 ardboys pinning him in place for long enough.

My hopes for the book, an army wide 6+ mortal wound save. With the current state of the game we are just to vulnerable to it.

Waaagh! Made once per megaboss.

Prophet of the waaagh! Changed to an IJ dead shouty, can use the waaagh! Once per turn for free.

More damage and rend across the board.

All our saves increased by +1 across the board. So cabbage would have a 2+.

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17 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So I played against skaven last night and won due to the 30 ardboys pinning him in place for long enough.

My hopes for the book, an army wide 6+ mortal wound save. With the current state of the game we are just to vulnerable to it.

Waaagh! Made once per megaboss.

Prophet of the waaagh! Changed to an IJ dead shouty, can use the waaagh! Once per turn for free.

More damage and rend across the board.

All our saves increased by +1 across the board. So cabbage would have a 2+.

I would not get my hopes up for that and I do not really find them all that realistic, +1 save to everything would be sort of madness with a 2+ hero on behemoth... helloooo ethereal amulet... Not going to happen ;)

I hope for far more diversity in tactics and playstyles rather than just raw power. We are not very mortal wound vulnerable really, with multi wound models across the board nad usually a good price per wound, even less so for bonesplitterz models, which are even more point per wound efficient against mortal wounds.

I would like compeltely different command abilities and everything Whaagh related built into that new mechanic they talked about.

For each Clan I really like the fyreslayer format, putting emphasis on the aspects you enjoy with the twists lodges/clans provide. With so few models, it is a really interesting way to stretch their use and potential more, like the fyreslayer lodge giving more run and movement in general, or the one with more hero artifacts and command ability which lets more heroes close to each other strike at the same time, or the magmadroth one, where you can have more behemoths and more mount traits. I can see this baked into the core ideas of our current battalions.

We do not need more rend, attacks, save or anything if the army as a whole gets more tactical options. I really hope that the whaag bubble is removed so we can spread out our forces and play the objective game.

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1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

We do not need more rend, attacks, save or anything if the army as a whole gets more tactical options. I really hope that the whaag bubble is removed so we can spread out our forces and play the objective game.

So on the save thing, it's more I want something which makes us tankier in general Ironjawz are supposed to be incredibly tough and incredibly dangerous like a slow moving steamroller.

Instead all our units are made of glass and we are less tanky than most other modern armies. Even skaven heroes are tankier than ours are.

On the rend/attacks/damage I completely disagree. We are not sylvaneth darting around the board avoiding fights while trying to seize objectives. Even khorne or nurgle should have to be wary about how they engage us or end up getting minced.

As far as raw melee potential goes ironjawz should be THE best at their points level. To the point that they can grind down pretty much anything. The offset to that is no ranged potential, very limited magical potential, no stupid or funny tricks (like the FEC mortal wound stuff) and slow moving.

That goes for everything, a warchanter should have the same damage potential as other armies mid teir melee heroes, able to mash things like runesons on foot. A megaboss on foot should be a threat to ~250pt monsters.

So no, our currently pathetic damage warscroll damage potential needs a huge boost.

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1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Instead all our units are made of glass and we are less tanky than most other modern armies.

 

This is maybe a slight hyperbole, but yeah, based on lore ironjawz should stay slow and incredible tanky. But i dont think we should get an additional save, this should allways be the nurgle or fyreslayer thing. Armor increase or wound increase would be nice, as it should fit being 95% in armor.

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

As far as raw melee potential goes ironjawz should be THE best at their points level. To the point that they can grind down pretty much anything.

I have to disagree with that. As you point out we should be able to grind down everything - through our incredible tankiness. Because simply sad, orruks are brutes hitting heavy (2+/3+ to wound, high damage) but slow (low attacks), inaccurate (4+ hit) with improvised and blunt weapons (low rend).

What should be the kicker is the Waaagh!

As the fight continous, orruks get frenzied, therefor faster, so they murder through anything. But without Waaagh!, they should be just tanky.

I hope we get a mechanic represting that, warchanters and shamans building up the Waaagh! making orruks absolutly bonkers, but till that, those guys are slow and tanky and a stormcast - lorewise - should beat any normal Orruk. Its the mass channeling the Waaagh! making them unstoppable and yes - in this state they should be THE melee killer.

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5 minutes ago, DerZauberer said:

I have to disagree with that. As you point out we should be able to grind down everything - through our incredible tankiness. Because simply sad, orruks are brutes hitting heavy (2+/3+ to wound, high damage) but slow (low attacks), inaccurate (4+ hit) with improvised and blunt weapons (low rend)

Aye, I think a 6+ mortal wound save is needed but other than that wounds and armour rather than the after saves.

Unbuffed ironjawz base melee profile should be the strongest and most reliable in the game. That's before buffs etc. that makes DoK go nuts for example.

True ironjawz should be high attacks, strong profiles, solid rend (blunt weapons are actually better against armour than bladed) with above average damage.

Ardboys attack profiles should be average damage for the strong melee factions or elite infantry for more average armies. 

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With generic greenskinz no longer being sold by GW, I had thought they might be getting a resculpt/relaunch in a new Orc-centric battletome.  There is certainly room in ironjawz for a mounted hero, or mid-tier hero like a warboss or bannerboss. Or even normal Orruk conscripts. Think we’ll see any of the greenskinz models re-appear with new warscrolls as ironjawz in the new battletome?

 

Or could GE be slowplaying some new Greenskinz model release to go along with the new Orruk grand alliance in the book? If you can mix bonesplitterz and ironjawz, then why not allow the greenskinz in too?

Just some hopeful speculation on my part. 

 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

With generic greenskinz no longer being sold by GW, I had thought they might be getting a resculpt/relaunch in a new Orc-centric battletome.  There is certainly room in ironjawz for a mounted hero, or mid-tier hero like a warboss or bannerboss. Or even normal Orruk conscripts. Think we’ll see any of the greenskinz models re-appear with new warscrolls as ironjawz in the new battletome?

 

Or could GE be slowplaying some new Greenskinz model release to go along with the new Orruk grand alliance in the book? If you can mix bonesplitterz and ironjawz, then why not allow the greenskinz in too?

Just some hopeful speculation on my part. 

I get the feeling they want to move away from "generic" so that each faction/race is distinct rather than "this is the bigger and badder version of..."

I think with gitmob and greenskinz dead and the random order stuff being sorted into cities rather than races we are pretty much at that point.

Only one would be ogors/beastclaw but let's face it there will be a single combined ogor book which makes them a single faction.

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While bonesplitterz are OK I do not really think model range wise combining these 2 forces provide much, both got a shaman hero, a boss on foot, OK tough but slow guys on foot, guys on pigs. 

Unlike Gloomspite and Beasts the model ranges of the 2 urruk factions does not really cover any holes but mostly just overlap, which is a shame. Both ranges need a unit or two to spice things up a bit. 

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2 hours ago, Malakree said:

I get the feeling they want to move away from "generic" so that each faction/race is distinct rather than "this is the bigger and badder version of..."

I think with gitmob and greenskinz dead and the random order stuff being sorted into cities rather than races we are pretty much at that point.

Only one would be ogors/beastclaw but let's face it there will be a single combined ogor book which makes them a single faction.

Oh well, the greenskinz hordes have been a staple of Warhammer since the beginning, hate to see them go.  GW better step up and release more Ironjawz units  if they are going to properly  represent the orks in AoS.  Brutes, ardboyz and gruntas do not make for a varied force. 

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Malakree said:

I get the feeling they want to move away from "generic" so that each faction/race is distinct rather than "this is the bigger and badder version of..."

I think with gitmob and greenskinz dead and the random order stuff being sorted into cities rather than races we are pretty much at that point.

Only one would be ogors/beastclaw but let's face it there will be a single combined ogor book which makes them a single faction.

I know what you mean, but it does seem like double standards with Destruction getting dumped on again.

Generic Humans and Dwarves?  Here, have a Free Cities Battletome.

Generic Skeletons and Zombies?  Sure, you can have a home in LON.

Generic Orcs and Goblins?  Sorry, we don't do "generic".

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1 minute ago, PlasticCraic said:

Generic Orcs and Goblins?  Sorry, we don't do "generic".

Greenskinz as a "faction" are the generic free people's faction. So they have to be rolled into the it run hordes.

What role do they fill in the orruk hordes?  What aesthetic do they bring outside of "green slightly stronger human".

The wyvern is a baby mawkrusha, orruks are baby ardboys, boarboys are baby goregruntas, even bow orruks are just baby arrowboys. So the only unique things are the warboss with banner and chariots. 

Chariots as a whole are something they are phasing out and don't really work in the modern orruk lore. The bannerboss is only important because it gives a unique aura.

End result is that "greenskinz" as a faction bring nothing from a lore or aesthetic perspective which the union of bonesplitterz and ironjawz doesn't already have. Outside of being small and weedy that is.

10 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Generic Humans and Dwarves?  Here, have a Free Cities Battletome.

They have said some of the older order models are going to be retired in the coming months. So this isn't entirely true.

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