AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion

[kenshin620]

3 minutes ago, Malakree said:

The wyvern is a baby mawkrusha, orruks are baby ardboys, boarboys are baby goregruntas, even bow orruks are just baby arrowboys. So the only unique things are the warboss with banner and chariots.

So by that definition, Death should squat Deathrattle. They're just non-floaty Nighthaunt.

 

(and on that note people are still clinging onto the hope of Dispossessed and Wanderers getting proper battletomes)

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, kenshin620 said:

and on that note people are still clinging onto the hope of Dispossessed and Wanderers getting proper battletomes)

Yeah that ain't happening. The cities tome is their book.

1 minute ago, kenshin620 said:

So by that definition, Death should squat Deathrattle. They're just non-floaty Nighthaunt

The argument could be made between skeletons and chaonwrasps yes.

Mechanically and aesthetically they are distinct in a way that orruks and ironjawz aren't.

[kenshin620]

3 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Mechanically .... they are distinct

I dunno, people are still using GGR over GG. And Chainrasps are very common replacement for skeleton warrior battleline.

And Black Knights vs Hexwraiths not only come from the same box but they do the same thing!

Spoiler

sit on the shelf! 👻

 

[PlasticCraic]

39 minutes ago, Malakree said:

What role do they fill in the orruk hordes?  What aesthetic do they bring outside of "green slightly stronger human".

"Cheap" is a role.  1 wound cheap chaff would potentially be very useful - especially against Slaanesh, but sometimes you just need a bunch of idiots to stand 9" from a board edge.

And being smaller and weedier Ardboyz isn't really any different from Skeleton Warriors (smaller and weedier Grave Guard) for example.  Just because you have the larger version doesn't preclude the useful Battlefield role of the smaller version.  Or at least it doesn't in other GAs.

[gedrekt]

I think a case could be made that normal Greenskinz do provide an important lore function in giving a baseline by which Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz differentiate themselves.  Ironjawz are supposed to be orruks that are bigger, tougher and better armored than your average orruk. Bonesplitterz are supposed to be orruks that are crazier and more primitive than your average orruk. Kind of like how without Free People some might start considering the Stormcasts to he the "human" faction.

Mechanically I think they have to the potential to be different along these lines:

• Ironjawz having good durability and damage output, but lacking numbers
• Bonesplitterz having good damage output and numbers, but lacking durability
• Greenskinz having good numbers and durability, but lacking damage output

(In a combined battletome there would need to be some drawback to prevent people running orruk soup from just cherry-picking the best of each subfaction.)

Without new models I don't have much hope for Greenskinz though.
 

[tom_gore]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Greenskinz and Gitmob are gone for good. Sadly, since I have about 100 painted orcs in my cabinets. Perhaps it's finally time to sell them to the 9th Age / KoW players (which I will most likely never be).

On more predictions, I actually believe they will remove Waaagh as a command ability and instead make it part of the allegiance ability. So you accumulate Waaagh energy by playing and then unleash it as a full-scale, boardwide Waaagh. That would further remove the need to bank those command points and/or release them for other uses.

The way Waaagh energy is accumulated I think will be closest to how Nurgle works, so there are several different ways to gather it. One is most likely the faction terrain generating it, another one is probably having units in melee and/or fighting with them. Some endless spells and perhaps command traits might generate it too.

I don't think we're getting any new models, but I'm secretly wishing for a plastic hero or two for the Bonesplitters so I don't have to work with finecast.

 

[PlasticCraic]

24 minutes ago, tom_gore said:

I don't think we're getting any new models, but I'm secretly wishing for a plastic hero or two for the Bonesplitters so I don't have to work with finecast.

To be fair, the finecast Wurggog Prophet is a great little model, and the Wardokk is decent enough.

The Maniak Weirdnob is abysmal though.  If you want variety in the models, I recommend this guy from Mierce:

https://mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_blg_bnl_cha_050_000

He is doing his little Wardokk dance, or he can also perch nicely on the back of a boar as an alternative Maniak Weirdnob.  So he's a great alternative for either.

He fits in perfectly with the army and is just the right scale too.

There is also this guy who I would imagine to be the right scale, although I've not bought one of these myself (unlike that first one linked above) so I can't really confirm that:

https://mierce-miniatures.com/index.php?act=pro&pre=mrm_blg_bnl_cha_011_000

[tom_gore]

Thanks for the tips @PlasticCraic ! Will keep that in mind if GW fails to deliver anything new

I'm not troubled by the sculpts, just that Finecast as a material is not my thing. I hate having to straighten up all sticks and blades, and there's usually a lot more flash and mould lines than GW's current plastic models.

[Malakree]

6 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

"Cheap" is a role.  1 wound cheap chaff would potentially be very useful - especially against Slaanesh, but sometimes you just need a bunch of idiots to stand 9" from a board edge.

At a guess, they don't want 1 wound orruks? Could you take the shadespire warband instead, it should get a warscroll update with the book.

I'd say that in the future cheap will be the bonesplitterz half of the army. Which then brings us to

6 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

I dunno, people are still using GGR over GG. And Chainrasps are very common replacement for skeleton warrior battleline.

Savage boarboys are a straight swap from normal ones, especially if the 6+ unrendable ability remains in the game. I guess I should have been clearer in my thinking. You either "upgrade" to ironjawz or you "sideswap" into bonesplitterz.

And yes I agree that chainwrasps vs skele warriors is a good counter.

6 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Skeleton Warriors (smaller and weedier Grave Guard)

Graveguard aren't battleline.

[Dirtnaps]

13 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Graveguard aren't battleline.

They are if you're playing Grandhost of Nagash but yeah usually they aren't.

[Skreech Verminking]

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

Greenskinz as a "faction" are the generic free people's faction. So they have to be rolled into the it run hordes.

What role do they fill in the orruk hordes?  What aesthetic do they bring outside of "green slightly stronger human".

 

Cheap meathsields protecting your line from very killi Daughters and fec

[Malakree]

7 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Cheap meathsields protecting your line from very killi Daughters and fec

Ally in grots?

[Scurvydog]

Why is meatshields an issue? Ardboyz are now 14 pts per model, that is 7 points per wound, with a 4+ save and with a shield they got that 6+ ignore wound save as well. You can't really get much more point efficient meatshields than that really. Same with Bonesplitterz also being one of the highest amount of wounds per point, meatshields is the last thing Orruks need compared to every other area.

[PlasticCraic]

Because it's not just points per wound you're looking for in a meat shield - it's minimum cost for the unit (140 points is relatively high to throw away or leave standing around doing nothing) and points per amount of zoning (10 Greenskinz control as much space as 10 Ardboyz despite being half the wounds).

So Ardboyz are more efficient overall, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are efficient in the role of dangle bro. 

Or to put it another way - they are cheap wounds, but not cheap bodies. 

[Gothmaug]

There’s also the need for variety, from a plan aesthetics viewpoint. Having an army of big, mean Meele machines is great..... until you come across your  first walled fort.  Then you just stand around as then lousy pink skins throw stuff down on our heads. Give us a catapult or a battering ram, or even a monster that fulfills  a siege role. How about some heroes that actually utilize gore gruntas as transportation? 

Im not sad we lost greenskinz mechanically. the new ironjawz sculpts are beautiful, I just feel we need some more variety before we can truly represent the breadth of the ork hordes. 

[Malakree]

3 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

There’s also the need for variety, from a plan aesthetics viewpoint. Having an army of big, mean Meele machines is great..... until you come across your  first walled fort.  Then you just stand around as then lousy pink skins throw stuff down on our heads. Give us a catapult or a battering ram, or even a monster that fulfills  a siege role. How about some heroes that actually utilize gore gruntas as transportation? 

In the lore brutes bash down the gates and walls...

[tom_gore]

A grunta riding hero would be sweet indeed.

[kenshin620]

1 hour ago, Gothmaug said:

 Give us a catapult

Got you covered!

[tom_gore]

12 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Got you covered!

Most likely moved to Legends with the new battletome, along with the other Greenskins and Gitmob units.

 

[Gothmaug]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

In the lore brutes bash down the gates and walls...

 

With what? Their hands? A rusty iron sword doesn’t do much against a stone wall or iron gate, no matter how strong you are. Oh well, no one said fantasy games have to be logical.

It’s a pipe dream I know, but what about an armored pig or wooly rhino as a “gatecrasher” that inflicts mortals on impact?  Or “Gorks mighty headbutt “ spell that blasts a wall (or heavy armored units) to bits. Or a few monstrous units, the bonesplitters should definitely have more than pigs. 

Just something to give us a bit more tactics as an army. This is a strategy game after all, and just because we are the “melee army” doesn’t mean charging ahead screaming had to be the only available tactic.

 

[Malakree]

58 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

With what? Their hands? A rusty iron sword doesn’t do much against a stone wall or iron gate, no matter how strong you are. Oh well, no one said fantasy games have to be logical.

Literally yes.

Quoting from the lore.

There can be no mistaking the handiwork of the Ironjawz. One of their most famous acts of vandalism was the defacement of the monolithic statue of Archaon which stood over the Manticore Realmgate that leads to the Allpoints. Three times have different Ironjaw warclans brought it down. The first time, the Everchosen’s helm was recarved into the grinning face of Gork, so Archaon sent a legion to guard over its repair. The second time, the head was taken off entirely and replaced with a huge wooden grot head. Incensed, Archaon ordered the expansion of the Manticore Dreadhold. The third time, the Ironjawz brought down the walls and raised a crude idol to Gork over the fallen statue of Archaon. Now, a new Lord of Chaos commands the rebuilt Manticore Dreadhold, peering into the wastes as orruk drums rumble in the distance.

 

Once, the Realm of Beasts was filled with many noble empires ruled over by hunter kings and proud beast lords. Their domains were set atop snow-wreathed peaks or amid subterranean continents where mountains reached from above and below to form mazes of stone. Some stood on the backs of surging ocean monsters and others in the boughs of drifting sky-trees. The Ironjawz toppled one after another. If a skyborne keep flew the banners of free peoples or the eye-searing symbols of the minions of Chaos, it mattered not to the Ironjawz, only that the keep stood at all.

 

So no, ironjawz don't need warmachines to bring down a fort.

There's other things, like the armour on true ironjawz, so not ardboys, looks crudely forged. That's because they litteraly forge it with their fists, beating it into the armour they wear.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Malakree

[Gothmaug]

11 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Literally yes.

Quoting from the lore.

There can be no mistaking the handiwork of the Ironjawz. One of their most famous acts of vandalism was the defacement of the monolithic statue of Archaon which stood over the Manticore Realmgate that leads to the Allpoints. Three times have different Ironjaw warclans brought it down. The first time, the Everchosen’s helm was recarved into the grinning face of Gork, so Archaon sent a legion to guard over its repair. The second time, the head was taken off entirely and replaced with a huge wooden grot head. Incensed, Archaon ordered the expansion of the Manticore Dreadhold. The third time, the Ironjawz brought down the walls and raised a crude idol to Gork over the fallen statue of Archaon. Now, a new Lord of Chaos commands the rebuilt Manticore Dreadhold, peering into the wastes as orruk drums rumble in the distance.

 

Once, the Realm of Beasts was filled with many noble empires ruled over by hunter kings and proud beast lords. Their domains were set atop snow-wreathed peaks or amid subterranean continents where mountains reached from above and below to form mazes of stone. Some stood on the backs of surging ocean monsters and others in the boughs of drifting sky-trees. The Ironjawz toppled one after another. If a skyborne keep flew the banners of free peoples or the eye-searing symbols of the minions of Chaos, it mattered not to the Ironjawz, only that the keep stood at all.

 

So no, ironjawz don't need warmachines to bring down a fort.

There's other things, like the armour on true ironjawz, so not ardboys, looks crudely forged. That's because they litteraly forge it with their fists, beating it into the armour they wear.

Yes, and in that same lore it states that no matter how elaborate the defenses the greenskinz eventually overwhelmed it. That still doesn’t mean the ironjawz dont use bettering rams (which seem highly thematic) or other specialized orruk units to help achieve the goal. Sure you can tear down a mountain with your hands, but it takes a long time, even if you’re a 9’ tall muscle bound brute. 

 

IIRC in the same lore, doesn’t it speak of the mega waaghs attracting ALL greenskinz to the area, and that armies like Gordrak’s have countless normal orruk followers in tow. Orruks get bigger and meaner the more fights they survive and it’s from this constant tide of normal greenskinz that new Ironjawz replacements come from. You need small orks to make big orks and those small ones have to come from somewhere. 

 

Of of course this whole discussion could be moot, as the new battletome is likely to replace/update the existing lore. And personally I’m ecstatic we’re actually getting a batttletome 

I’ll still use some old greenskinz in my friendly local games. I’ve got “orruk” catapults (that use gitmob stats) and orruk “conscripts” as well as a few old hero sculpts they I  bring in as allies from time to time. Perhaps with the new “grand Orruk” faction comming out, we’ll houserule in the old normal greenskinz for some narrative games. 

 

 

[Malakree]

35 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

IIRC in the same lore, doesn’t it speak of the mega waaghs attracting ALL greenskinz to the area, and that armies like Gordrak’s have countless normal orruk followers in tow. Orruks get bigger and meaner the more fights they survive and it’s from this constant tide of normal greenskinz that new Ironjawz replacements come from. You need small orks to make big orks and those small ones have to come from somewhere. 

Ardboys are actually those smaller orruks. Ardboys aren't ironjawz, they are orruks who follow the ironjawz waaagh! hoping to impress the Ironjawz and join their ranks.

37 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

Of of course this whole discussion could be moot, as the new battletome is likely to replace/update the existing lore. And personally I’m ecstatic we’re actually getting a batttletome 

I imagine they will build on what's there rather than retcon it.

38 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

Yes, and in that same lore it states that no matter how elaborate the defenses the greenskinz eventually overwhelmed it. That still doesn’t mean the ironjawz dont use bettering rams (which seem highly thematic) or other specialized orruk units to help achieve the goal. Sure you can tear down a mountain with your hands, but it takes a long time, even if you’re a 9’ tall muscle bound brute. 

I believe the argument is that an ironjawz fists ARE the equivilent battering rams.

39 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

I’ll still use some old greenskinz in my friendly local games. I’ve got “orruk” catapults (that use gitmob stats) and orruk “conscripts” as well as a few old hero sculpts they I  bring in as allies from time to time. Perhaps with the new “grand Orruk” faction comming out, we’ll houserule in the old normal greenskinz for some narrative games. 

In the new gbh it says you can use any of the old warscrolls that had points values in previous editions with your opponents consent.

So realistically they are still tournament legal if the TO agrees to allow them to be used at the old points.

Ofc at flgs do whatever you want. All my arguments come from a purely canonical and "tournament legal" because that's the only standard/area I actually play at. I tried playing at my flgs but found it wasn't fun for me or them. Me because they would constantly misplay the rules and the games were not a challenge. Them because I'm a horrific rules lawyer and would curb stomp them every game.

[kenshin620]

Well as I mentioned a while ago, if you got a bunch of greenskinz lying around, just use them as bonesplitter stand ins.

 

Though also to be fair on Sieges, it's something that GW kind of goes on and off about. I mean technically I think nearly everyone uses traditional siege weapons like Rams or Towers or Ladders but GW doesn't feel like making them anymore since they're a bit of a niche (and they'd have to maked themed weapons for everyone). Thats for you the player to do!

Spoiler

 

[Dirtnaps]

19 hours ago, Gothmaug said:

With what? Their hands?

Well, yeah I mean they makes all their armour and weapons by bashing it into shape with their fists so I don't see why they couldn't bring down a gate or a wall if enough of them are smashing into it for long enough.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Dirtnaps