AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion

[tripchimeras]

On 2/29/2020 at 10:10 AM, Holy_Diver said:

Ouch. Mmm that's pretty bad, because for 10 pts can't get another squad of 5x boys. 

So, @tripchimeras a legal alternative... -10 Savages and +5 Ardboys? 

Thanks for suggestion, its interesting but I really want to retain the 2x30 savages, if you could squeeze in an ironfist I agree it'd be worth it, but since you can't without sacrificing bodies I'm decided to try out my maw krusha idea this weekend.  It was pretty devastating in its first action.  I landed on the following option to start:

Quote

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
- Mortal Realm: Shyish

LEADERS
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Command Trait : Brutish Cunning
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact : Ethereal Amulet
- Mount Trait : Weird 'Un

Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Lore of the Savage Beast : Breath of Gorkamorka

Wardokk (80)
- Lore of the Savage Beast : Kunnin' Beast Spirits

Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat : Fixin' Beat

UNITS
30 x Savage Orruks (300)
- Stikkas

30 x Savage Orruks (300)
- Stikkas

5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
- 1 x Gore Choppas

BEHEMOTHS
Rogue Idol (400)

TOTAL: 1950/2000
EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1

EDIT: Sent before I meant to

Game went perfectly.  Played against a gloomspite horde list, and while gloomspite aren't exactly top of the meta right now it still showed me what I wanted to see from it.  Brutish kunning as I thought is 100% a must for the list.  So I think as much as I would want metalripper claw, without the 2+ armour save from Ironclad I don't feel comfortable taking it.  I didn't miss the shooting much.  Having the freedom to just spread out and layer the screens knowing no matter which savage orruk unit opponent was going to hit they were hitting something that can hit back and be buffed up to really tank some wounds was great.  The extra command point was also really clutch.  Every T1 pretty much you want to take advantage of all the bodies and use a command point to generate more Waagh! points, so depending on that 4+ to have anything left is nerve racking.  Having the extra CP in your back pocket from the word go is really helpful.  I was able to make use of it immediately since my opponent didn't quite screen right/ underestimated just how fast I was despite knowing about the 20 inch fly ability, and I was able to steamroll both my mawkrusha and rogue idol directly into his big block of 60 stabbas immediately t1.  Fly spell went off, mega destroyered my maw krusha and had easy 5 or 6 inch charges on each with +1 to charge with a CP to spare in case 1 of them fluffed.  Neither did and I was able to use the command point with the mawkrusha's ability allowing me to nullify his nets.  the 2 of them 1 hit the 60 stabbas, and the mawkrusha used his base size to engage 2 other support/screaning units at the same time.  Basically rolled up his entire stronger flank immediately he was forced to teleport skragrat (or whatever his name is) to his other flank, and while we played out through t2 the game was pretty much over there.  But even though a small deployment mistake on his part finished the game early, I was able to test out the screened out deployment structure with all of the bubbles, and I could see the path forward had he not presented the juicy t1 target.  Think the list doesn't lose a TON from the gore grunta build, and I think psychologically it is a bit more terrifying just to know I have 2 monsters with potential 32 inch + threat ranges.

I think the one thing that I still need to figure out are the Brutes.  They kinda are just there.  There damage output even without the damage plus is pretty strong, but that 4 inch move is just not ideal and they don't have the board coverage to adequately enclose/screen my support heros.  They can KINDA babysit them by charging anything that gets close, but that doesn't account for double turns.  And aside from having mop up duty, they are running so far behind the rest of the army that I found them just sitting around in no mans land for most of the fight.  Baby sit an objective, come in behind the savages (if they are in a single line) to fight maybe?  the uses just aren't great, feels like I'm paying a tax with them.  Ideally I'd go either 10 ard boyz, or 3 gore gruntas but in each of those cases I'm losing out on the extra CP which I really like.  A triumph isn't nothing, but I'd rather have the CP.  That leaves either a random 10 savage orruks or arrowboyz in there to babysit support heroes, or 5 boarboyz to clear screens/go character hunting.  The 10 extra bodies feels a bit like overkill, so I'm tempted to go with 5 boarboyz, but I do wonder about the lost rend of the Brutes.  Maybe I just need to stick with them and get better at keeping them in the fight.

Edited March 2, 2020 by tripchimeras

[Holy_Diver]

I also tried a list with the idol yesterday afternoon, against a mono shooting kharadron list. Well, it's definitely a bulldozer, but it basically has two flaws:

1) costs more than the maw ... someone could object surely, but while for the maw you spend 460, for the idol you spend at least 400 + 150 + 80.
2) works the same way as a rocket launcher: once fired 40 inches then it's far from any other type of support.

I'm still studying the army sure, but for now I have noticed that. And for the bodies @tripchimeras you're right: against shoot we need to "resist and bite".

Edited March 2, 2020 by Holy_Diver

[PlasticCraic]

2 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:

I also tried a list with the idol yesterday afternoon, against a mono shooting kharadron list. Well, it's definitely a bulldozer, but it basically has two flaws:

1) costs more than the maw ... someone could object surely, but while for the maw you spend 460, for the idol you spend at least 400 + 150 + 80.
2) works the same way as a rocket launcher: once fired 40 inches then it's far from any other type of support.
 

Agreed on point 1) to an extent

What can make the whole thing work is if you craft a list with cross-synergies.  And what I meant by that is, when you have other uses for the Megaboss and Wardokk, they are not simply a sunk cost. 

Specifically, I would always have a shield wall of 30 Savage Orruks.  They also benefit hugely from the Wardokk +2 to save combo, and in the early rounds I'd be more likely to juice them up than the RI.  He also generates a Waaagh point every turn.  He also jacks up the +1 to cast on your Prophet so you can blast through his Warscroll spell on a 10+.  Pebbles also further enhances the Prophet.  So with those cross-synergies, the 80 points is so much more than a Rogue Idol tax.

The Megaboss is more of a tax, it's true.  You can still get juice out of him beyond just giving Pebbles a Mighty D move: I always include Gore Gruntas in my lists, so they benefit too.  He also has a slightly different role as a backfield support Hero (who can kick back a bit) that buffs people along with the Warchanter as they go forward in waves, whereas once your Maw Krusha goes off into to the wild blue yonder, he's up and away. 

But it's definitely fair to say that you wouldn't take him if you had a Maw Krusha with Brutish Cunning (unlike the Wardokk which I would argue you take anyway).  So I think 550 vs 460 is the true points comparison, but it can still work  if the rest of your list works in with it.  For example the RI and Megaboss don't demand further investment (read: Ethereal Amulet) in the same way as a Maw Krusha, so that liberates a resource to use elsewhere to offset the extra cost.

Also agreed on point 2) to an extent

That's a big part of playing this list: once you fire him forward, you've played your ace.  Timing is everything.  Early turns he has value in buffing your wizards, and threatening every area of the board with that big move and hitting over the top of enemy screens.  He's also a trap / deterrent that can hit over the top of your own screens and fight twice, i.e. you can shut down a whole area of the board from being charged by deploying him just behind your lines.  

You don't fling him out there until you're happy that he will have a game-defining impact.  You've had 2 or 3 buffed magic phases out of him, he's got the 2+ save and flying move, and there is a crucial target within Mighty D move reach.  That's not really a flaw though, as much as a playstyle.  He's not a turn 1 rocket - he's a menace and buff piece early game, and a mid-game clincher.

[Ravinsild]

19 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Agreed on point 1) to an extent

What can make the whole thing work is if you craft a list with cross-synergies.  And what I meant by that is, when you have other uses for the Megaboss and Wardokk, they are not simply a sunk cost. 

Specifically, I would always have a shield wall of 30 Savage Orruks.  They also benefit hugely from the Wardokk +2 to save combo, and in the early rounds I'd be more likely to juice them up than the RI.  He also generates a Waaagh point every turn.  He also jacks up the +1 to cast on your Prophet so you can blast through his Warscroll spell on a 10+.  Pebbles also further enhances the Prophet.  So with those cross-synergies, the 80 points is so much more than a Rogue Idol tax.

The Megaboss is more of a tax, it's true.  You can still get juice out of him beyond just giving Pebbles a Mighty D move: I always include Gore Gruntas in my lists, so they benefit too.  He also has a slightly different role as a backfield support Hero (who can kick back a bit) that buffs people along with the Warchanter as they go forward in waves, whereas once your Maw Krusha goes off into to the wild blue yonder, he's up and away. 

But it's definitely fair to say that you wouldn't take him if you had a Maw Krusha with Brutish Cunning (unlike the Wardokk which I would argue you take anyway).  So I think 550 vs 460 is the true points comparison, but it can still work  if the rest of your list works in with it.  For example the RI and Megaboss don't demand further investment (read: Ethereal Amulet) in the same way as a Maw Krusha, so that liberates a resource to use elsewhere to offset the extra cost.

Also agreed on point 2) to an extent

That's a big part of playing this list: once you fire him forward, you've played your ace.  Timing is everything.  Early turns he has value in buffing your wizards, and threatening every area of the board with that big move and hitting over the top of enemy screens.  He's also a trap / deterrent that can hit over the top of your own screens and fight twice, i.e. you can shut down a whole area of the board from being charged by deploying him just behind your lines.  

You don't fling him out there until you're happy that he will have a game-defining impact.  You've had 2 or 3 buffed magic phases out of him, he's got the 2+ save and flying move, and there is a crucial target within Mighty D move reach.  That's not really a flaw though, as much as a playstyle.  He's not a turn 1 rocket - he's a menace and buff piece early game, and a mid-game clincher.

Would your assessment of the Megaboss on Maw-Krusha apply to pure Ironjawz too?

[PlasticCraic]

39 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Would your assessment of the Megaboss on Maw-Krusha apply to pure Ironjawz too?

I think the equation changes slightly in pure IJ (including pure IJ running under a Big Waaagh).  Specifically you don't have a Prophet with stacking +1s to cast on his modifiable horde-clearer, and you don't have other BS units (30x Stikka boyz) to benefit from Wardokk spells and dances.  So in that situation I think they are more like a true Rogue Idol tax, and he starts to price himself out of the equation.

So roughly speaking I'd say a Maw Krusha is more efficient in pure / mostly IJ lists (under either allegiance), but the Rogue Idol can compete with him in truly mixed Big Waaagh armies.

I'm still interested to see Maw Krusha Big Waaagh lists with mixed forces though - the Wardokk and Stikka boyz are so damn efficient, they are worth slotting in with or without a Rogue Idol in my opinion.

[Bloodgut]

Big time lurker here, I've got a match coming up against a big waagh soon and have been looking over the rules and such and have one question on my mind. Why is no one taking the Warboss on warboar with the great Banner?

Just seems so op. 9" movement to get around the board better. His banner and command ability are both withins not wholly withins (this is a big deal) and affect multiple units(bigger deal). His Banner is 16" reroll 1s to wound which is nice since your guys will be wounding on 2s by turn 2 probably. His command ability is 12" and  adds +1 attacks for all units within range which is better than +1 to hit for 1 unit that the megaboss's get. It's not as good as the Big Waagh but you dont need to risk your Waagh points. And to top it all off he affects both Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz units.

Am i missing something here? Seems like he should be an auto include in a Big Waagh.

 

[PlasticCraic]

Hi @Bloodgut

I'm running the Warboss with Waaagh Banner (if you click the link to my blog you'll see I recently podiumed with him).  However you are unfortunately also missing something.

Specifically, he has a new updated Warscroll, which moved him to wholly withins (and stopped you spamming the Command Ability).  But on the plus side, the timing of the CA is now at any point in either player's combat phase.

Beyond that, he's not really competing with the Megaboss for his CA.  His CA is definitely much better than the Megaboss, especially in Big Waaagh.  The reason the Megaboss still sees play despite that, is for backdoor access to Mighty Destroyers, via the Brutish Cunning Command Trait.  For that reason, I run both Bosses in my own Big Waaagh currently.

CPs are scarce in this army and he's CP thirsty.  If you're running Bonesplitterz in there, you'll probably need some for IP for example. 

I do also think that a lot of people don't own the model / can't be bothered converting, and he's probably just not on some people's radars.  But I do agree that he's really good despite that, and I do run him competitively myself.  Although I'll be honest, he's right on the cusp of being kept in the army or not.

[Kasper]

The question for me usually comes down to how many points are you gonna spend on support heroes. For IJ, a Warchanter is significantly better utility. You probably also want atleast 1 caster, maybe both a Wurrgog and a Shaman. Before you know it, you have very little points left for bodies.

[Holy_Diver]

13 hours ago, Bloodgut said:

Big time lurker here, I've got a match coming up against a big waagh soon and have been looking over the rules and such and have one question on my mind. Why is no one taking the Warboss on warboar with the great Banner?

Just seems so op. 9" movement to get around the board better. His banner and command ability are both withins not wholly withins (this is a big deal) and affect multiple units(bigger deal). His Banner is 16" reroll 1s to wound which is nice since your guys will be wounding on 2s by turn 2 probably. His command ability is 12" and  adds +1 attacks for all units within range which is better than +1 to hit for 1 unit that the megaboss's get. It's not as good as the Big Waagh but you dont need to risk your Waagh points. And to top it all off he affects both Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz units.

Am i missing something here? Seems like he should be an auto include in a Big Waagh.

 

For him the problems are the model and the fact that you must cut off something to fit him in. 140 points (if I remember right) means you can't bring all the normal choises.

17 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Agreed on point 1) to an extent

What can make the whole thing work is if you craft a list with cross-synergies.  And what I meant by that is, when you have other uses for the Megaboss and Wardokk, they are not simply a sunk cost. 

Specifically, I would always have a shield wall of 30 Savage Orruks.  They also benefit hugely from the Wardokk +2 to save combo, and in the early rounds I'd be more likely to juice them up than the RI.  He also generates a Waaagh point every turn.  He also jacks up the +1 to cast on your Prophet so you can blast through his Warscroll spell on a 10+.  Pebbles also further enhances the Prophet.  So with those cross-synergies, the 80 points is so much more than a Rogue Idol tax.

The Megaboss is more of a tax, it's true.  You can still get juice out of him beyond just giving Pebbles a Mighty D move: I always include Gore Gruntas in my lists, so they benefit too.  He also has a slightly different role as a backfield support Hero (who can kick back a bit) that buffs people along with the Warchanter as they go forward in waves, whereas once your Maw Krusha goes off into to the wild blue yonder, he's up and away. 

But it's definitely fair to say that you wouldn't take him if you had a Maw Krusha with Brutish Cunning (unlike the Wardokk which I would argue you take anyway).  So I think 550 vs 460 is the true points comparison, but it can still work  if the rest of your list works in with it.  For example the RI and Megaboss don't demand further investment (read: Ethereal Amulet) in the same way as a Maw Krusha, so that liberates a resource to use elsewhere to offset the extra cost.

Also agreed on point 2) to an extent

That's a big part of playing this list: once you fire him forward, you've played your ace.  Timing is everything.  Early turns he has value in buffing your wizards, and threatening every area of the board with that big move and hitting over the top of enemy screens.  He's also a trap / deterrent that can hit over the top of your own screens and fight twice, i.e. you can shut down a whole area of the board from being charged by deploying him just behind your lines.  

You don't fling him out there until you're happy that he will have a game-defining impact.  You've had 2 or 3 buffed magic phases out of him, he's got the 2+ save and flying move, and there is a crucial target within Mighty D move reach.  That's not really a flaw though, as much as a playstyle.  He's not a turn 1 rocket - he's a menace and buff piece early game, and a mid-game clincher.

Very interesting examination.  All arguments on which I agree, but for the second one there's a thing to notice: against shooting maybe the Idol must hit before the enemy begin to cut of your bodies. So 99% in the first turn.

ps: I'm dying to know how one of your teammates managed to beat Changehost in the final (readed on your blog 😄 of course)

 

[VonSmall]

Current Big Waaagh list looks something like this:

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of the Weird
- Artefact: Amberbone Hoard
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Fixin' Beat
Wardokk (80)
- Artefact: Mork's Boney Bitz
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
15 x Orruk Ardboys (270)
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

Ardfist (120)
Ironfist (160)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Wounds: 163
Drops: 5

 

Overview:

• Like so many others, the issue I've faced is where to find the points for all the things I want. A Wurrgog would be great but I don't need his horde killing spells when I have an army of Ardboys who come back and hit/wound on 2s, so I went for the Weirdnob General as he has the one spell I REALLY want.
• Ardfist: Warchanter (Fixin' Beat) &  3x15 Ardboys , Ironfist 6 Pigs (with battalion boss) & 2x5 Ardboys

Deployment:

• No rocket science here, the 3x15 ardboys are going to be front and centre of your army here. Initially they are the wall that later becomes the wall that hits back. Make sure you have a warchanter within 15" of each of these units.
• To make the most of the pigs I tend to keep them central but behind the lines. This means they can get stuck in at the front or get teleported later on.
• Obviously the Weirdnob's key weakness here is 6 wounds and a 5+ save so keeping him close enough to get healed by the Fixin' Beat Warchanter if something is going to be shooting him is key. Otherwise with his 24" range spell you can sit him happily at the back and let the other chracters carry the army.

Game Plan:

• If at all possible, you want to be giving your opponent the first turn (and subsequently give the turn away). In this regard you know you will never get doubled. If given the first turn buff up and sit tight.
• First 2 turns are essentially spent buffing your army to the point where they get the +1hit/wound. Once you've reached this point it's game on time.
• A good opponent will either hit you early on before the buffs go up, which is where your high wound count from the Ardboys in front and 2CPs for Immune to Battleshock come into their own. They will also be looking to kill you essential characters, in this case the Weirdnob so do try and keep him safe!
• The 2x5 ardboys can be used in two ways: 1) If the opponent has units that can come on behind you, they can be used as a screening unit alongside your back units. 2) They are your early, throw away, objective grabbers using teleports and secret speed (see below).
• Important: Never rely on the 4+ rolls. A big part of Ardfist / Get 'Em beat's threat is their potential. Make sure to remind the opponent of what they can do as this will make them think about it which in my experience is half the battle.

Secret Speed:

• Many are the opponent who miss the speed of ardboys without the teleport. If, for example, you want to grab an objective early game with the 5 ardboys you can Mighty Destroyers from the pigs, Greenpuke from Brutal Power,  move and run for an average of 14"-16". Alternatively, if you're wanting to get stuck in you can do the same without the running, but add the charge for an average threat range of 21"-22". If you're able to get the 4+ from the warchanter with Get 'Em Beat this increases to an average 25"-26" threat range...without a teleport in sight!

Edited March 5, 2020 by VonSmall

[Malakree]

@VonSmall That's actually a really nice variation on the list I've been building/working around.

Dropping the wurrgog for to have 15+15+15 rather than 15+15+5 is something I hadn't thought of. I'm not sure how you deal with fyreslayers or petrifex would be my issues. I'm definately leaning into massive mw output to get round the problem...

[Ravinsild]

17 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

I think the equation changes slightly in pure IJ (including pure IJ running under a Big Waaagh).  Specifically you don't have a Prophet with stacking +1s to cast on his modifiable horde-clearer, and you don't have other BS units (30x Stikka boyz) to benefit from Wardokk spells and dances.  So in that situation I think they are more like a true Rogue Idol tax, and he starts to price himself out of the equation.

So roughly speaking I'd say a Maw Krusha is more efficient in pure / mostly IJ lists (under either allegiance), but the Rogue Idol can compete with him in truly mixed Big Waaagh armies.

I'm still interested to see Maw Krusha Big Waaagh lists with mixed forces though - the Wardokk and Stikka boyz are so damn efficient, they are worth slotting in with or without a Rogue Idol in my opinion.

I think I more meant that part about how to use it, like how you hold it back and keep it out as a support piece maybe for a mighty waaaagh! or a Go On Ladz, Get In there! until the right moment presents itself and then you strike. I've been experimenting using mine with Metalrippa's Klaw and Mean 'Un to make him to most killy he can be, putting a Warchanter buff and sometimes buffing his own self with his command ability for 8 attack at 2/3/-3/2 then 8 2/3/-2/4 damage respectively at full health. However I've tried the launch him like a missile thing and he usually does some damage then explodes, and is out of the buffs and support range, and sometimes I move him in the wrong spot and he just gets charged and dies...i've been trying to figure out how to use it to most effect without it just...being a big pile of cool looking points that accomplishes very little.

 

Specifically this bit here: 

18 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

That's a big part of playing this list: once you fire him forward, you've played your ace.  Timing is everything.  Early turns he has value in buffing your wizards, and threatening every area of the board with that big move and hitting over the top of enemy screens.  He's also a trap / deterrent that can hit over the top of your own screens and fight twice, i.e. you can shut down a whole area of the board from being charged by deploying him just behind your lines.  

You don't fling him out there until you're happy that he will have a game-defining impact.  You've had 2 or 3 buffed magic phases out of him, he's got the 2+ save and flying move, and there is a crucial target within Mighty D move reach.  That's not really a flaw though, as much as a playstyle.  He's not a turn 1 rocket - he's a menace and buff piece early game, and a mid-game clincher.

Does this also apply to pure Ironjawz as far as his "role in the army" and how to utilize him to the best of his ability? I feel like mine does a lot of nothing and dies... sometimes. It'****** or miss. I did kill 9 Tzeentch flamers, but my opponent rolled 47 dice for each wound he inflicted and on 5+ got a mortal bounced back but I don't think that's how that ability works since flamers only have 2 wounds each so I think at most it should have been 18 dice rolled...but still...

Edited March 3, 2020 by Ravinsild

[VonSmall]

56 minutes ago, Malakree said:

@VonSmall That's actually a really nice variation on the list I've been building/working around.

Dropping the wurrgog for to have 15+15+15 rather than 15+15+5 is something I hadn't thought of. I'm not sure how you deal with fyreslayers or petrifex would be my issues. I'm definately leaning into massive mw output to get round the problem...

Petrifex are good but don't have the same numbers as we do - typically I'd rely on picking the point of contact and overwhelming them there as the arddoys are pretty survivable. The tricky thing comes in when you're going for one objective each and they can focus their strength.

Fyreslayers can do one lol. Warcry is useful in this matchup to give you a bit more time, you're also relying ont the pigs to not fluff.

Edited March 3, 2020 by VonSmall

[tripchimeras]

21 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Agreed on point 1) to an extent

What can make the whole thing work is if you craft a list with cross-synergies.  And what I meant by that is, when you have other uses for the Megaboss and Wardokk, they are not simply a sunk cost. 

Specifically, I would always have a shield wall of 30 Savage Orruks.  They also benefit hugely from the Wardokk +2 to save combo, and in the early rounds I'd be more likely to juice them up than the RI.  He also generates a Waaagh point every turn.  He also jacks up the +1 to cast on your Prophet so you can blast through his Warscroll spell on a 10+.  Pebbles also further enhances the Prophet.  So with those cross-synergies, the 80 points is so much more than a Rogue Idol tax.

The Megaboss is more of a tax, it's true.  You can still get juice out of him beyond just giving Pebbles a Mighty D move: I always include Gore Gruntas in my lists, so they benefit too.  He also has a slightly different role as a backfield support Hero (who can kick back a bit) that buffs people along with the Warchanter as they go forward in waves, whereas once your Maw Krusha goes off into to the wild blue yonder, he's up and away. 

But it's definitely fair to say that you wouldn't take him if you had a Maw Krusha with Brutish Cunning (unlike the Wardokk which I would argue you take anyway).  So I think 550 vs 460 is the true points comparison, but it can still work  if the rest of your list works in with it.  For example the RI and Megaboss don't demand further investment (read: Ethereal Amulet) in the same way as a Maw Krusha, so that liberates a resource to use elsewhere to offset the extra cost.

Also agreed on point 2) to an extent

That's a big part of playing this list: once you fire him forward, you've played your ace.  Timing is everything.  Early turns he has value in buffing your wizards, and threatening every area of the board with that big move and hitting over the top of enemy screens.  He's also a trap / deterrent that can hit over the top of your own screens and fight twice, i.e. you can shut down a whole area of the board from being charged by deploying him just behind your lines.  

You don't fling him out there until you're happy that he will have a game-defining impact.  You've had 2 or 3 buffed magic phases out of him, he's got the 2+ save and flying move, and there is a crucial target within Mighty D move reach.  That's not really a flaw though, as much as a playstyle.  He's not a turn 1 rocket - he's a menace and buff piece early game, and a mid-game clincher.

This is exactly why I'm really liking the idea of having the Maw Krusha and Rogue Idol in same list.  By putting mighty destroyer on a model that is so efficient on his own, even if there is nothing else within range to mighty destroyer he can always do it on himself.  I think all of the cross synergies that apply to the list with gore gruntas and rogue idol apply to the list with maw krusha and rogue idol + you aren't paying the mega boss tax.  Doesn't seem like you advocate that, and hoping you can expand on that a bit?

Is it the fact you have to use your 1 artefact slot on ethereal amulet as opposed to buffing the wurrgog?  Or do you think having that buffed shooting is really important?  Really curious to here what you have to say on the matter, because it seems you have more practice/experience with this style list then most.

[Aelfric]

17 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Specifically, he has a new updated Warscroll, which moved him to wholly withins (and stopped you spamming the Command Ability). 

Are you referring to the legends Warscroll, because that has the Orc keyword and has no mounted version.  If there is an updated warscroll for the Orruk Warboss can you let us know where it can be found as I only have the GA: Destruction one.  Thanks.  Also, if there is an update for the Warboss on Wyvern, as I was thinking of allying one in for Gloomspite (I always have spare CP to use up  )

[PlasticCraic]

36 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Are you referring to the legends Warscroll, because that has the Orc keyword and has no mounted version.  If there is an updated warscroll for the Orruk Warboss can you let us know where it can be found as I only have the GA: Destruction one.  Thanks.  Also, if there is an update for the Warboss on Wyvern, as I was thinking of allying one in for Gloomspite (I always have spare CP to use up  )

If you take a look at the GA Destruction Errata, you should see it in there bud - although it's also showing the updated Warscroll ("Oct 2019") on the app for me?

[PlasticCraic]

2 hours ago, tripchimeras said:

This is exactly why I'm really liking the idea of having the Maw Krusha and Rogue Idol in same list.  By putting mighty destroyer on a model that is so efficient on his own, even if there is nothing else within range to mighty destroyer he can always do it on himself.  I think all of the cross synergies that apply to the list with gore gruntas and rogue idol apply to the list with maw krusha and rogue idol + you aren't paying the mega boss tax.  Doesn't seem like you advocate that, and hoping you can expand on that a bit?

Is it the fact you have to use your 1 artefact slot on ethereal amulet as opposed to buffing the wurrgog?  Or do you think having that buffed shooting is really important?  Really curious to here what you have to say on the matter, because it seems you have more practice/experience with this style list then most.

Yeah 100% I think that could work, although it would porbably leave you light in other areas.  I have ran a Maw Krusha and Rogue Idol list myself and it was great fun, and no joke.  Like you touched on, you will make sacrifices elsewhere to achieve it, but I'm definitely interested to see any lists you come up with on that theme.

5 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Does this also apply to pure Ironjawz as far as his "role in the army" and how to utilize him to the best of his ability? I feel like mine does a lot of nothing and dies... sometimes. It'****** or miss. I did kill 9 Tzeentch flamers, but my opponent rolled 47 dice for each wound he inflicted and on 5+ got a mortal bounced back but I don't think that's how that ability works since flamers only have 2 wounds each so I think at most it should have been 18 dice rolled...but still...

Yeah I think he's done you there!  The core rules specify that you allocate wounds to a model until it is slain, and then stop.  So I'd have said he can't roll more bounce-back dice than there are wounds in the unit?

But that's also a good illustration of why I find the Arrow Boys so hard to drop.  Mathematically, their output is less efficient than the stuff they are competing with, but there are quite a few cases floating around where you'd really prefer to ping away rather than fight!

6 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:

Very interesting examination.  All arguments on which I agree, but for the second one there's a thing to notice: against shooting maybe the Idol must hit before the enemy begin to cut of your bodies. So 99% in the first turn.

ps: I'm dying to know how one of your teammates managed to beat Changehost in the final (readed on your blog 😄 of course)

Yep, always worth noting that there are exceptions to any rule!  And @Garuun is the person to speak to, he rolled over Changehost not once, but twice on his way to the podium with Big Waaagh (and hopefully will be writing a guest piece for the blog about his experience).

[Aelfric]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

If you take a look at the GA Destruction Errata, you should see it in there bud - although it's also showing the updated Warscroll ("Oct 2019") on the app for me?

Thanks.  I don't have the app - I'm a bit of a luddite and my phone is, well, just a phone.  One day I will enter the 21st century, but today is not that day. 

[Garuun]

On 2/29/2020 at 3:55 AM, tripchimeras said:

So it seems (for good reason) that the new gold standard for Mixed Big Waagh is the rogue idol + 60 savages, 1 shooting, 1 combat build that I think started getting picked up as a big time net list after placing 4th at cancon.  I love the list and am contemplating bringing it to my next GT.  However, the foot megaboss with brutish kunnin however necessary he is, feels like a 150pt tax which bothers me a bit.  Also the ever-present menace that is ObR hanging over the meta right now has me wishing for more punch.  For the cost of the foot megaboss and the gore gruntas I can have a Maw Krusha though, which potentially solves both of my qualms if I can solve the third battleline issue without sacrificing the spirit of the list.

So the base list I would now be working from if I went for combo maw krusha and rogue idol while keeping the spirit of the original list is as follows:

This leaves basically 3 options to retain the body count I want for screens and the shooting meta while also keeping the list legal:

1. add back the maniak wierdnob, have 20 arrowboys instead of 30, and take a unit of 10 savage orruks for the 3rd battleline.

2. ditch the maniak wierdnob, keep 30 arrowboys, make the wurrgog prophet the general losing out on the brutish kunnin so that he can take the extra spell needed for the additional to hit buff for the arrowboys, and use the pt savings to either add 10 more savage orruks or a min unit of boarboyz to meet battleline requirements.

3. ditch the arrowboys entirely as well as the maniak wierdnob, and use the point savings on a second block of 30 savage orruks, a min unit of brutes or a min unit of boarboyz, and an extra command point.

The one other think I still need to decide is whether to go all in vs ObR with metalripper claw and ironclad or balanced with ethereal and brutish.

I guess the question is A. whether the list is better vs ObR with maw krusha in it to begin with and B. is it worth trying to retain some semblance of a shooting phase, or without buff optimization do you abandon it for raw melee? 

Trust me the mega boss on foot is not a tax, he’s the one hidden threat of the list, can drop a horror unit on his own, it is also another source of +1 to hit for the list to fight around debuffing armies. I’ve tried to fit in a maw boss but then I’m stuck giving the cabbage my artefact and dropping my arrow boys to make room, sure it would make the obr match up slightly easier but between the idol, arrows and wurrgogs warscroll spell I typically can fight my way through mortek guard walls.

Tl;dr foot boss is fine, maw krusha boss requires gutting the list, though the I like the maw/idol list, it’s identical to the one I wrote myself in release, though I’ve swapped the Brutes for some arrow boys just so I can leave them at home and still have some input later in the game.

Also on the subject of the arrowboyz, while they aren’t the all conquering point, click and delete unit they used to be what they are useful for is utilising another phase to do damage, freeing up your melee units getting around combat phase defensive buffs (mortek guard) and threatening heroes for the hero centric missions and match ups (fyreslayers and changehost) 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Garuun

[Kasper]

@VonSmall Think the list is very solid, a couple of pointers:

1) Wardokk can only buff Bonesplitterz units, so cant help the Weirdnob out.

2) You are missing an artefact. Ragged cloak on the Ardfist Warchanter could be quite valid in case the opponent tries to snipe him.

3) Warcry is not really gonna help against most stuff that fights first. Fyreslayers can spend a CP and destroy your unit. The second activation will be delayed though. The spell can help against many other situations though, so I think 80 pts is a very good investment.

4) I would reconsider the trait on the Weirdnob. With a list like this Burstin’ with Power looks really strong. Not only does it open up the possibility to Green Puke + Teleport a unit of Ardboyz, it also allows you to snipe heroes or deal serious damage to units with Wrath of Gork. Potentially 12D6 with every 2+ being a MW. Thats somewhat comparably to the Wurrgog warscroll spell. 

[PlasticCraic]

Here's that write-up on the Summer Smash tournament win for those interested:

https://plasticcraic.blog/2020/03/04/interview-with-joel-graham-winner-of-summer-smash/

[Bululu]

15 hours ago, Kasper said:

@VonSmall Think the list is very solid, a couple of pointers:

1) Wardokk can only buff Bonesplitterz units, so cant help the Weirdnob out.

2) You are missing an artefact. Ragged cloak on the Ardfist Warchanter could be quite valid in case the opponent tries to snipe him.

3) Warcry is not really gonna help against most stuff that fights first. Fyreslayers can spend a CP and destroy your unit. The second activation will be delayed though. The spell can help against many other situations though, so I think 80 pts is a very good investment.

4) I would reconsider the trait on the Weirdnob. With a list like this Burstin’ with Power looks really strong. Not only does it open up the possibility to Green Puke + Teleport a unit of Ardboyz, it also allows you to snipe heroes or deal serious damage to units with Wrath of Gork. Potentially 12D6 with every 2+ being a MW. Thats somewhat comparably to the Wurrgog warscroll spell. 

Thanks i was just going to ask for point number 1, as i thought that wardokk could only buff bonesplitterz and weirnob is ironjawz.

[Garuun]

1 hour ago, Bululu said:

Thanks i was just going to ask for point number 1, as i thought that wardokk could only buff bonesplitterz and weirnob is ironjawz.

There is a bonesplittas weirdnob as well, which may have caused the confusion?

 

 

[VonSmall]

18 hours ago, Kasper said:

@VonSmall Think the list is very solid, a couple of pointers:

1) Wardokk can only buff Bonesplitterz units, so cant help the Weirdnob out.

2) You are missing an artefact. Ragged cloak on the Ardfist Warchanter could be quite valid in case the opponent tries to snipe him.

3) Warcry is not really gonna help against most stuff that fights first. Fyreslayers can spend a CP and destroy your unit. The second activation will be delayed though. The spell can help against many other situations though, so I think 80 pts is a very good investment.

4) I would reconsider the trait on the Weirdnob. With a list like this Burstin’ with Power looks really strong. Not only does it open up the possibility to Green Puke + Teleport a unit of Ardboyz, it also allows you to snipe heroes or deal serious damage to units with Wrath of Gork. Potentially 12D6 with every 2+ being a MW. Thats somewhat comparably to the Wurrgog warscroll spell. 

@Kasper

1) Good point on the Wardokk - can be used to buff himself.

2) The missing item is actually intentional as a lot of events seem to be going down the 'pure' route of no Malign Sorceries so the list was written to fit in there. But yes, if they were allowed the Warchanter would be getting something.

3) Completely agree - Wardokk isn't there to fight first against those, just everyone else so you can engage two units at the same time. The Mighty Destroyers Charge/Flee/Pile In combo is for the strike first armies. Lots of situational tools for different situations.

4) I actually prefer the +1 cast/dispel/unbind trait (Vs the item which is only to cast) as this could potentially be key in the first turn (thinking about armies that use a bridge to jump on you - aka Hallowheart) so having the extra bonus (along with the Waaagh! Magic) is a little ace up the sleeve to block this. But yes, I do also like the Wrath of Gork spell a lot but go back to the same reason I didn't add the Wurrgog in...at the moment I feel that an army of teleporting, long move threat range, 2+/2+ Damage 2 Orruks doesn't need a big mortal wound output. Perhaps if Malign Sorceries where something like Ethereal Amulet could come in I'd consider it. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by VonSmall

[Bululu]

22 hours ago, Garuun said:

There is a bonesplittas weirdnob as well, which may have caused the confusion?

 

 

oh i see the weirnob maniak didnt know about that one :D