AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion

[Marcoangelo33]

@Kasper My list was a megaboss on MK (general) with -3 rend and fast un (fast un matches really well with the CA for bloodtoofs), 2 x warchanters (fixin and get em), Megaboss on foot (amulet), 6x pigs, 2x10 ardboyz, 1 x15 ardboyz, extra CP, ironfist.   This allows you to alpha strike with 2 units, waagh and dip out turn 1 if it is available to you.  Or you hold on to it for a later point, pull your enemy in and then drop in behind them with pigs and use multiple CP's for repositioning.  6 teleporting pigs is insanely powerful.  

Fyreslayers and plaguemonks are very different.  Fyreslayers, I try and just tie them up  (use a unit to tag them 2.9 inches away) and kill the rest of their army outside of the HGB blocks.  For plaguemonks, I just sacrifice my ardboy 10 man units.  I play very conservatively with my MK and Pigs, until i see an opening to strike.  I can virtually attack any point on the field with both these units, as my maw krusha moves 28 inches and the pigs are an auto teleport.   I use my ardboyz as screens in multiple lines in depth so they cant just blow past them all in a turn.  My chanters and megaboss sit at the back of the board buffing, until it is time to strike.  I ALWAYS have the 2 warchanters in range of both the pigs and the Maw Krusha and the pigs Mighty distroyer is always in range of the 15 ardoyz and the MK.  

@PlasticCraic  a good example was my game one of masters.  I was facing Daughters of kaine on focal points, I alpha strike their army with pigs and a maw krusha,  killed 50 witches and then used a CP to move my Maw Krusha all the way to the edge of the board.  I got on virtually all the objectives and basically  made my opponent choose between going after my maw krusha (making them follow me all the way to the edge of the board) or go after the objectives.  In my opinion, much of this game revolves around mentally fatiguing your opponent and abilities like "break through da line" give you substantial tactical flexibility.  

[Garuun]

On 2/19/2020 at 4:03 AM, Warbossironteef said:

First ever tournament is coming up this weekend. I'm running 30xStikkas and 30xArrowboyz in my Big Waagh. Havent had time to practice a lot of games using both blocks of 30. Does anyone have any general tips about how they deploy with these units?

Arrows behind spears and keep stuff within 18” of the general and within buffing range of the casters

[broche]

4 hours ago, Kasper said:

Having a 100% secured teleport could in some situations act almost like a “i win” button you can push at any given moment your opponent let his guards down.

It also much more reliable as an opening than guessing the spell. For exemple you could end up buffing a unit with warchanter then miss your teleport wich is quite bad.

The sad thing about bloodtooth tough is that GW failed to FAQ the Realmgate rule, so trait is useless. I mean it already not fantastic, but I would certainly take the extra attack on a 3+/4+ instead of 6+

[PlasticCraic]

It's frustrating, but if you message a TO in advance I would expect most people to be pragmatic about it.

[Kasper]

3 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

It's frustrating, but if you message a TO in advance I would expect most people to be pragmatic about it.

Yeah since you are technically entitled to the bonus per the core rules for setting up terrain, and since there is no way of denying the bonus on the table, I would imagine quite a few TOs would be ok with just giving you the passive ability.

[Kasper]

@Marcoangelo33I never really thought about using the CA like that - Drive by assassinating something 😅. Thats so cool! 
 

Often times I feel I could go in for the kill easily on my Maw Krusha, but leave myself open to a counterattack. This would allow me to do it then run to safety.

[DerZauberer]

I love it when people like @Marcoangelo33 take a "OMG so garbage, literaly unplayable" faction/warclan/unit/rule and just play it to their strengths and make it work big time.

Love it, thanks for the breath of life into Bloodtoofs.

[Kasper]

23 minutes ago, DerZauberer said:

I love it when people like @Marcoangelo33 take a "OMG so garbage, literaly unplayable" faction/warclan/unit/rule and just play it to their strengths and make it work big time.

Love it, thanks for the breath of life into Bloodtoofs.

Well it just goes to show that the book got tons of tricks and some not really explored by a lot of people. I always cringe a bit when people talk about Ironjawz as if it is purely an alpha strike army and thats it. 

[Malakree]

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

Well it just goes to show that the book got tons of tricks and some not really explored by a lot of people. I always cringe a bit when people talk about Ironjawz as if it is purely an alpha strike army and thats it. 

To be fair the way he is running bloodtoofs does play into the alphastrike category, if for some reason he fails to kill the unit he's left incredibly over extended. It's also ridiculously CP intensive.

The reason Ironjawz gets labelled alphastrike is because big waaagh does the straight up fighting better. If you want to play a sustained drawn out combat style then big waaagh is better, if you want to play alphastrike/hit and run then ironjawz is better.

[Kasper]

@Malakree Sure, it was phrased a bit wrong. What I meant by alphastrike, is that many people that play the alphastrike way, is literally just pushing all their models across the table in turn 1 without too much thought, and the game is usually decided by the doubble turn right there. 

This is much different in my eyes. The hit and run tactic sounds really great, especially against units without super long reach. We talked about the Weirdnob previously, and this would allow you to skip out on one, yet still threaten the entire backboard the entire game. The opponent can't even rely on getting Nagash etc. within range to unbind.

 

It is a bit too mathhammery to straight up say that BW > IJ for straight up fighting. Sure the +1/+1/6++ FNP makes every unit incredible, but chaining SnB back to back gives you something that those buffs will never be able to provide. IJ units aren't made of paper, but at the same time they aren't Mortek Guard.

 

[Marcoangelo33]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

To be fair the way he is running bloodtoofs does play into the alphastrike category, if for some reason he fails to kill the unit he's left incredibly over extended. It's also ridiculously CP intensive.

The reason Ironjawz gets labelled alphastrike is because big waaagh does the straight up fighting better. If you want to play a sustained drawn out combat style then big waaagh is better, if you want to play alphastrike/hit and run then ironjawz is better.

@Kasper  @DerZauberer  100% ya'll are correct; there is a ton of gas and different builds in the IJ book. All of the subfactions are strong and can be played effectively. They just have different play styles. I  have been playing Da Choppas recently and will be taking them to a big GT soon.  I expect to do well with them.  I have seen a ton of talking heads in here saying how the army is only an alphastrike army and cannot fight with top tier melee armies etc. This could not be further from correct because it is actually not designed to be an alphastrike army.

Try this out next time you play:   View the game through the lens of Smashing and Bashing.  You are looking to create a 3 fight combo, before your opponent can go again.  This means playing patiently and setting up your SaB chain.  An alpha strike does not allow you to do this effectively; instead, use IJ's amazing mobility to set up the smash and bash chain and position yourself for this, with your speed.  

@Malakree 

1) Please don't tell me the manner in which I play my army lol. No I do not use my army as an alphastrike army.  Alpha strike is a tool, not the method to actually play IJ effectively; eventually people will learn this, the more they play the army.  

2) I have never had problems with CP's. Play patiently draw them in and then use two hammers (in my case, 6 pigs and a -3 maw krusha) to get a combat string going and take out their important pieces.  

3) I will always argue that Smashing and Bashing is so powerful that it has plenty of use cases in which it is better than the Big waagh bonuses. Again see my #1 comment 

[Malakree]

23 minutes ago, Marcoangelo33 said:

@Malakree 

1) Please don't tell me the manner in which I play my army lol. No I do not use my army as an alphastrike army.  Alpha strike is a tool, not the method to actually play IJ effectively; eventually people will learn this, the more they play the army.  

Apologies I think I've once again hit a terminology issue where I'm using it to mean something which the majority of others are not.

I am not using it to mean the turn 1 all in which is characteristic of the classic Gordrakkfist.

I am instead using it to refer to the way in which Ironjawz attempt to setup those big SnB turns which roll through key portions of your opponents army. This is distinct from the way big waaagh gets into the opponents face and GRINDS the opponent.

I guess a more appropriate terminology would be that Ironjawz play explosive while big waaagh plays meat grinder.

 

Edit: One question I do have.

How are you dealing with the 3 blocks of 20 hearthguard which make up the staple of modern fyreslayers lists?

Edited February 20, 2020 by Malakree

[Ravinsild]

1 hour ago, Marcoangelo33 said:

@Kasper  @DerZauberer  100% ya'll are correct; there is a ton of gas and different builds in the IJ book. All of the subfactions are strong and can be played effectively. They just have different play styles. I  have been playing Da Choppas recently and will be taking them to a big GT soon.  I expect to do well with them.  I have seen a ton of talking heads in here saying how the army is only an alphastrike army and cannot fight with top tier melee armies etc. This could not be further from correct because it is actually not designed to be an alphastrike army.

Try this out next time you play:   View the game through the lens of Smashing and Bashing.  You are looking to create a 3 fight combo, before your opponent can go again.  This means playing patiently and setting up your SaB chain.  An alpha strike does not allow you to do this effectively; instead, use IJ's amazing mobility to set up the smash and bash chain and position yourself for this, with your speed.  

@Malakree 

1) Please don't tell me the manner in which I play my army lol. No I do not use my army as an alphastrike army.  Alpha strike is a tool, not the method to actually play IJ effectively; eventually people will learn this, the more they play the army.  

2) I have never had problems with CP's. Play patiently draw them in and then use two hammers (in my case, 6 pigs and a -3 maw krusha) to get a combat string going and take out their important pieces.  

3) I will always argue that Smashing and Bashing is so powerful that it has plenty of use cases in which it is better than the Big waagh bonuses. Again see my #1 comment 

How would you beat an Idoneth Deepkin Eel list? 

My first game back in 6 months, first game with the new book I kind of turtled up and put all my ArdBoyz out front, with my Brutes right behind them and put my Pigs and Maw-Krusha in the back. I gave my opponent first turn and he literally just passed. He did nothing at all.

So then I cautiously moved forward turn 1. Turn 2 he moved forward, so I moved forward to get into an advantageous position. 

Turn 3 came around, and I had it all set up, and I charged. Everything. And then it turns out he fights first (exclusively, like smashing and bashing, but his whole army, for free, just because) and wiped like all of my units and it was basically game over as I was also getting crushed on victory points. 

What would you do? Run hard at them turn 1 with MK, Pigs and Ardboyz (or brutes) teleported and just try to smash as much as possible before turn 3? 

[Ravinsild]

47 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Apologies I think I've once again hit a terminology issue where I'm using it to mean something which the majority of others are not.

I am not using it to mean the turn 1 all in which is characteristic of the classic Gordrakkfist.

I am instead using it to refer to the way in which Ironjawz attempt to setup those big SnB turns which roll through key portions of your opponents army. This is distinct from the way big waaagh gets into the opponents face and GRINDS the opponent.

I guess a more appropriate terminology would be that Ironjawz play explosive while big waaagh plays meat grinder.

 

Edit: One question I do have.

How are you dealing with the 3 blocks of 20 hearthguard which make up the staple of modern fyreslayers lists?

To use classic MMO terms or D&D terms: Ironjawz Burst/Nuke/Nova and the Big Waagh is just sustained DPS  

[broche]

12 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

It's frustrating, but if you message a TO in advance I would expect most people to be pragmatic about it.

Unfortunatly the TO's in my area ruled it out (as we are too retarded to use terrain rules around here anyway). I checked some bigger tournament and never seen anything about it in a player pack so i'm assuming most tournament don't allow it as well... I was actually hoping for a major tournament to clarify it to use as an argument in my local scene  

[broche]

3 hours ago, Malakree said:

To be fair the way he is running bloodtoofs does play into the alphastrike category, if for some reason he fails to kill the unit he's left incredibly over extended. It's also ridiculously CP intensive.

I play a similar list. It's aggressive but it's not an alpha strike and not CP intensive. I suspect he commit the 6 pig and a squad or ardboys in T1, and evaluate sending the maw krusha base on his survavibility rating. 

@Marcoangelo33 I would still use Etheral amulet over the -3 rend. I don't think any item buff your survavibility as much as the Amulet right now, and an alive Krusha is a Krusha doing damage. The one time i used the -3 rend it was actually to counter Bonereaper, but after playing a game against them I realized amulet is just plain better, as shutting down their rend 2 mean MK should survive against Guard and attack in hero phase (where they don't get to reroll)

[Marcoangelo33]

@Malakree  Now we are talking! Nuance is very important and we are misleading other players when we make blanket statements, that have little actual relevance.  I feel as though many times people lump in IJ, Bonesplitterz and Big waagh into the same basket, when they all play very differently and have very different strengths and weaknesses.  We as orruk players, need to do a better job of teasing these apart because it does not shine a light on the important aspects that can make each individual army successful and unique.  No matter how hard Big Waagh tries, it will not be able to make up for Smashing and Bashing (I have had 5+ smashing and bashing chains before) but it brings other things to the table, that IJ cannot replicate; IJ can never recreate Drakkfoot etc.  In my view, the key is to understand what the unique characteristic of that Allegiance/clan is and play into that strength as much as possible, in order to maximize  its value.

As for your question about how to deal with 3x20 hgb builds one of the few superior things that we have over them is mobility.  I would argue that you just go for the objectives and tie up their blocks, by tagging their units 2.9 inches away and stringing them apart.   If they make mistakes with leaving heroes unprotected, go after those.  I am not going to lie, this is a really tough match up and its an extreme uphill battle. There are some armies that are hard melee counters (again another reason why IJ is NOT an alpha strike esq. army, we need to make precise strikes to be successful) and there is not much one can do haha. ******THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE A ****** ARMY, THAT CANNOT COMPETE IN MELEE***** it means we must understand our strengths and weaknesses and try and compensate for those weaknesses as best we can (most of the time with our INSANE speed).

 

@Ravinsild Ive played against eels a couple different ways:  

1) In the same way you played it, turtle up and make them make a choice.  If he does nothing, you throw on Violent fury  and stay put as well or create a bit more space, but don't over extend and give those eels space to get deep into your lines.  Now he just lost his advantage because you have been able to buff yourself up, without loosing anything.  If turn 3 comes around and he gets to always strike first, think about maybe throwing up the waagh in his combat phase so that you have the ability to punch back powerfully.  

2) I get aggressive if he has left vulnerable units in his deployment zone and there are lots of objectives.  Make him choose where he brings on his eels by giving him too many options to choose from.  Separate your threats.  Get on those objectives early in his deployment zone.  Make him bring those eels in to counter charge you, instead of going on the aggressive against your lines.  

Hope these help!

[Marcoangelo33]

27 minutes ago, broche said:

I play a similar list. It's aggressive but it's not an alpha strike and not CP intensive. I suspect he commit the 6 pig and a squad or ardboys in T1, and evaluate sending the maw krusha base on his survavibility rating. 

@Marcoangelo33 I would still use Etheral amulet over the -3 rend. I don't think any item buff your survavibility as much as the Amulet right now, and an alive Krusha is a Krusha doing damage. The one time i used the -3 rend it was actually to counter Bonereaper, but after playing a game against them I realized amulet is just plain better, as shutting down their rend 2 mean MK should survive against Guard and attack in hero phase (where they don't get to reroll)

Sorry man I do not agree.  Again I can minimize my MK taking damage in plenty of different ways.  I have played with both and I value the rend very highly as it lets me start or continue my SaB chain.   You cannot use Break through da line with enemy's within 3 inches.  The extra rend secures kills. 

 

Let me be clear, I think ethereal amulet is fantastic but for my playstyle and my army build,  the -3 works much better. 

[Malakree]

23 minutes ago, Marcoangelo33 said:

No matter how hard Big Waagh tries, it will not be able to make up for Smashing and Bashing (I have had 5+ smashing and bashing chains before)

Yeah I just find that so much of the modern meta, at least over here, just blows IJ up to quickly or ties you down in ridiculously long melee. Tzeentch, fyreslayers and OBR all just grind you out and one of the things you get out of Big Waaagh! is ridiculous MW output from bonesplitterz and far more reliable casting while being far less CP dependent. On the other hand big waaagh! has basically switched to huge blocks of infantry with a ton of wounds so as you said it's a very different playstyle.

Oh on the ethereal amulet point, since slaughter decided to drop realm artefacts I tried the -3 rend at heat 1, holy gods was it good. The only time it sucked was vs etheral amulet stonehorn but without it I cream it in a single round. Should be interesting to see how the different factions suffer not having the realm artefacts.

[Ravinsild]

30 minutes ago, Marcoangelo33 said:

@Malakree  Now we are talking! Nuance is very important and we are misleading other players when we make blanket statements, that have little actual relevance.  I feel as though many times people lump in IJ, Bonesplitterz and Big waagh into the same basket, when they all play very differently and have very different strengths and weaknesses.  We as orruk players, need to do a better job of teasing these apart because it does not shine a light on the important aspects that can make each individual army successful and unique.  No matter how hard Big Waagh tries, it will not be able to make up for Smashing and Bashing (I have had 5+ smashing and bashing chains before) but it brings other things to the table, that IJ cannot replicate; IJ can never recreate Drakkfoot etc.  In my view, the key is to understand what the unique characteristic of that Allegiance/clan is and play into that strength as much as possible, in order to maximize  its value.

As for your question about how to deal with 3x20 hgb builds one of the few superior things that we have over them is mobility.  I would argue that you just go for the objectives and tie up their blocks, by tagging their units 2.9 inches away and stringing them apart.   If they make mistakes with leaving heroes unprotected, go after those.  I am not going to lie, this is a really tough match up and its an extreme uphill battle. There are some armies that are hard melee counters (again another reason why IJ is NOT an alpha strike esq. army, we need to make precise strikes to be successful) and there is not much one can do haha. ******THIS DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE A ****** ARMY, THAT CANNOT COMPETE IN MELEE***** it means we must understand our strengths and weaknesses and try and compensate for those weaknesses as best we can (most of the time with our INSANE speed).

 

@Ravinsild Ive played against eels a couple different ways:  

1) In the same way you played it, turtle up and make them make a choice.  If he does nothing, you throw on Violent fury  and stay put as well or create a bit more space, but don't over extend and give those eels space to get deep into your lines.  Now he just lost his advantage because you have been able to buff yourself up, without loosing anything.  If turn 3 comes around and he gets to always strike first, think about maybe throwing up the waagh in his combat phase so that you have the ability to punch back powerfully.  

2) I get aggressive if he has left vulnerable units in his deployment zone and there are lots of objectives.  Make him choose where he brings on his eels by giving him too many options to choose from.  Separate your threats.  Get on those objectives early in his deployment zone.  Make him bring those eels in to counter charge you, instead of going on the aggressive against your lines.  

Hope these help!

The way I was thinking to do it, and I have a game against the same guy this coming Saturday, is 1 turn 1 punch in the face. I was going to send a unit of 6 GG's, maybe my 20 Ardboyz or a unit of Brutes with the free teleport (I play Bloodtoofz) and my Maw-Krusha turn 1 and try and smash and bash and just delete as much as his stuff as possible running Mean 'Un, giving them +1 damage from Warchanters, and just throwing them at him full force. I feel like I can't wait for turn 3 or he will delete me again, because apparently his Akhelian King guy also gives ALL his dudes +1 attack on EVERYTHING and it stacks as many CP as he has or something so he was throwing fistfuls of dice at me. 

Would this strategy work? 

I find this strategy problematic, however, as it literally splits my army: Those are who are fast (GGs, Teleported, MK) and have Mighty Destroyers and those who are slow (the other stuff left behind) at 4 inch movement with few CP to spare to keep up. So my Warchanters and the other half of my army is in the deployment zone and takes several turns of literally just running to get back into the action, and often it feels as though my MBMK and GGs just die in a counter attack (I played against Stormcast this way once). 

I've only played either way (Slow and turtle) once, and alpha strike face punch turn 1 once and I'm having trouble figuring out how to keep all my units together to get all the buffs going and being meaningful. 

I'm not new to Ironjawz, but I feel like THIS particular book plays VERY different to GHB 2019 Allegiance abilities and I took a long break so I'm trying to understand my army (again). 

[broche]

1 hour ago, Marcoangelo33 said:

Sorry man I do not agree.  Again I can minimize my MK taking damage in plenty of different ways.  I have played with both and I value the rend very highly as it lets me start or continue my SaB chain.   You cannot use Break through da line with enemy's within 3 inches.  The extra rend secures kills. 

Let me be clear, I think ethereal amulet is fantastic but for my playstyle and my army build,  the -3 works much better. 

Problem is that extra rend end up adding around 3 damage (it will reduce variance however). 

If you take the 3 ardest units in the meta (phoenix guard, mortek guard and berserker) this extra 3 damage is not gonna ensure anything against those. 
Etheral amulet will add between 15 to 32 sustained damage potential (with RR1) to your Krusha just against rend 1 (which is the vast majority of damage output availaible to most army and more and more army have rend 2 these days)

There also seem to be less and less mid-range units these day. Model are either glass canon, or almost unkilable (see the 3 exemple above). That make extra extra damage much less relevant. 

So for a single artefact you get to almost double his wound characteristic. Considering it's a 460 pts model, no other artefact come close in value, unindependantly of the playstyle.

[Ravinsild]

I thought Aetherquartz Broach was a must have due to how CP starved Ironjawz are. I've been putting the Aetherquartz on a megaboss on foot and the free teleport one that i'm forced to take (Bloodtoofz) on my General (MBMK). 
 

[Malakree]

13 minutes ago, broche said:

Problem is that extra rend end up adding around 3 damage (it will reduce variance however). 

Against high save units with RR's it increases it considerably more.

Mortek for example it's the difference betwen 3+ RRall and 6+ RRall

[broche]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Against high save units with RR's it increases it considerably more.

Mortek for example it's the difference betwen 3+ RRall and 6+ RRall

Yes and no. If assume a +1 to hit and a warchanter buff, we are talking about 5 extra kill against MG

Currently Mortek is mostly the only units against wich is it relevant. But even there we are talking about less than 4 extra kill. Then the rest of them is gonna  is gonna shred the cabbage with rend 2...

Of course without realm artefact, or with a 2nd cabbage, it can be a good pick.

[Marcoangelo33]

1 hour ago, broche said:

Problem is that extra rend end up adding around 3 damage (it will reduce variance however). 

If you take the 3 ardest units in the meta (phoenix guard, mortek guard and berserker) this extra 3 damage is not gonna ensure anything against those. 
Etheral amulet will add between 15 to 32 sustained damage potential (with RR1) to your Krusha just against rend 1 (which is the vast majority of damage output availaible to most army and more and more army have rend 2 these days)

There also seem to be less and less mid-range units these day. Model are either glass canon, or almost unkilable (see the 3 exemple above). That make extra extra damage much less relevant. 

So for a single artefact you get to almost double his wound characteristic. Considering it's a 460 pts model, no other artefact come close in value, unindependantly of the playstyle.

This will be the last post I make on amulet vs -3 as it has now hijacked the conversation away from Bloodtoofs play style.

1) this math does not make any sense at all.  

With re-rolls, rend becomes increasingly more valuable.  Take phoenix guard for example, -3 will give them only the 4+ feel no pain save, as opposed to  a 5+,4+.  I will take that every day of the week and twice on Sunday.  As @Malakree pointed out, Mortek guard are on a 6+,6+ instead of 4+,4+.  I'm not understanding your argument here.  

2) Again in my bloodtoofs build,  I need to WIPE the unit I am fighting because I want smashing and bashing and the ability to use "break through da line", if I find it advantageous to do so.

3) The "Meta" (which doesn't have many of the units you mentioned, except for mortek) is a subjective term to your location and shouldn't be used as a staple of an argument, as if it is the end all be all. This is what is considered a logical fallacy.

4) with ethereal amulet, instead of -3,  I will be spending CP's on hero phase fighting because I didnt wipe out my target, thus limiting my unique ability that Bloodtoofs CA Provides. 

I have played 40+ games with Bloodtoofs since the book came out, many of them with trying out both builds and I will again stick with my choice given my play style and that of Bloodtoofs command ability, which I am trying to maximize.  What we have hear is the common "math hammer" vs "practical hammer" argument.  I have literally tested these things extensively on the tabletop and have developed a style that works for me. I never said that etheral amulet was not good etc.  I am only giving my thoughts on Bloodtoofs and the manner in which I played them, with high success.  If you would like to get out there in tournaments and prove it otherwise,  even better! That gives us even better information to work with.