AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion

[Aelfric]

5 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

How does the Rip-Tooth Fist work? Intuition says every 6 = a mortal wound but they wrote it strangely. It says "The attacking unit suffers 1 mortal wound after all of its attacks have been resolved." so it almost seems like if you roll 12 saves and get 3 6's then you still only deal 1 mortal wound. 

You deal one Mortal Wound for each save roll of six.  If it was just one MW regardless of the number of sixes, then the wording would have been "any", as per the Nurgle Daemon Prince FAQ in S2D.

[NauticalSoup]

24 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

How does the Rip-Tooth Fist work? Intuition says every 6 = a mortal wound but they wrote it strangely. It says "The attacking unit suffers 1 mortal wound after all of its attacks have been resolved." so it almost seems like if you roll 12 saves and get 3 6's then you still only deal 1 mortal wound. 

If the unmodified save roll for an attack that targets this model is 6, the attacking unit suffers 1 mortal wound after all of its attacks have been resolved.

So it does only deal 1 mortal wound... but you compute it for each attack that was saved on an unmodified 6. So each time the ability triggers it deals 1, and it triggers a number of times equal to the number of unmodified saves of 6.

[Lanoss]

Im confused. 
Are we suggesting - if a unit is within 12” of an enemy unit it can charge it in the hero phase, even if our unit is within 3” of another enemy unit (which we would have to attack?) and therefore (even if in combat with another unit) we can charge out of combat, into another unit, then retreat in our movement phase?

OR

Are we simply suggesting a tactic is to charge in the hero phase (get further up the board), then slingshot in the movement phase to an objective or other place on the board?

[Malakree]

46 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

How does the Rip-Tooth Fist work? Intuition says every 6 = a mortal wound but they wrote it strangely. It says "The attacking unit suffers 1 mortal wound after all of its attacks have been resolved." so it almost seems like if you roll 12 saves and get 3 6's then you still only deal 1 mortal wound. 

It's once per unmodified 6.

The timing is important because each attack is technically resolved individually, so if a unit has 3 attacks a model. They do the first attack, you roll the 6 to save, the unit takes a mortal wound. That mortal wound then resolves as part of the attack killing a model etc.

Basically it's just saying your opponent does all their attacks then after all of them are resolved then they take the mortal wounds. It's also important because even if you "die" halfway through wounds aren't allocated to models until after all attacks have been made. So if the opponent has 200 attacks to make and the first 10 kill you they still need to make the other 190 to since you can reflect mortal wounds off them.

[Ravinsild]

Yeah that’s how I thought it worked but the changed the language in a way that could perhaps be interpreted that after all of the saves are made, no matter how many 6’s you make on saves you then finally deal 1 mortal wound lol. 
 
Do people typically take the rip tooth fist or the other load out?

[Malakree]

16 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

Are we suggesting - if a unit is within 12” of an enemy unit it can charge it in the hero phase, even if our unit is within 3” of another enemy unit (which we would have to attack?) and therefore (even if in combat with another unit) we can charge out of combat, into another unit, then retreat in our movement phase?

No.

You use Mighty Destroyers while within 12" of an enemy and more than 3" away from them.
Your unit then declares and completes a charge.
This sets the tag "has completed a charge this turn".
You then retreat with that unit.
In the combat phase that unit can still pile in and attack because it "has completed a charge this turn".
If you are 3.5" away from an enemy unit, you are not "in combat" but when you pile it leaves you 0.5" from an enemy
Since you're now within range of your weapons you have to attack.

Hence you charge, retreat and then pile in from outside of combat range. This has so many benefits it's impossible to possibly list them all, it's a lot though.

Just now, Ravinsild said:

Do people typically take the rip tooth fist or the other load out?

I take the extra +2 attacks because I never remember the rip tooth fist. The 2" range is also nice....if I remembered it 😅

[Lanoss]

hmmm @Malakree I understand your explanation but I see that as a sort of abuse of the rules. Sure, there are several examples of similar abuse in the game based on wording and they don’t all get faq’d but it’s a conversation I’m not willing to have with my opponent because I’d feel like I’m pulling one over on them based on wording. 
if gw came back and said it was allowed then I’d do it every game! Hahah

Also, do the retreat rules say A unit that retreats cannot attack or pile in etc?

[Malakree]

26 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

hmmm @Malakree I understand your explanation but I see that as a sort of abuse of the rules. Sure, there are several examples of similar abuse in the game based on wording and they don’t all get faq’d but it’s a conversation I’m not willing to have with my opponent because I’d feel like I’m pulling one over on them based on wording. 
if gw came back and said it was allowed then I’d do it every game! Hahah

Quote

Also, do the retreat rules say A unit that retreats cannot attack or pile in etc?

No they explicitly do not. It's a well known perk of the 6" pile in that you can retreat or run and still pile in because you are within 6" The best tyrants of blood lists atm are based around the fact you can auto run your bloodthirster 6" and then use the 6" pile in to still attack. (See Yheetes)

Also on the still piling in and charging, if you charge and then the unit you charged loses models so that you are now out of 3" you can still pile in and attack.

The only quirk being used here is that the charge is occurring in the hero phase, other than that everything else has been well established for 2+ years.

[Lanoss]

Hmm I think you have me convinced @Malakree

[Malakree]

10 hours ago, Lanoss said:

Hmm I think you have me convinced @Malakree

Honestly it's a massive buff to Ironjawz that you can do it and easily brings them back into being competitive compared to Big Waaagh! It's also an enormous buff to Bloodtoofs, fast un, hand of gork and even the maw krusha.

[Kasper]

It really gives Ironjawz a huge edge in the activation wars. Who cares if the enemy unit fights first or your unit fights last if the opponent's unit isn't in combat before you get to activate and pile in. It is basically a free doppelganger's cloak.

I'm personally not using it in casual games unless he's playing a rather competitive and nasty list. 

[DerZauberer]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Honestly it's a massive buff to Ironjawz that you can do it and easily brings them back into being competitive compared to Big Waaagh! It's also an enormous buff to Bloodtoofs, fast un, hand of gork and even the maw krusha.

You really tend to exaggeration, so much is clear in 180 pages of greenskin topics

As much as i personally hate such stuff and when confronting me with such "moves" i'll get immensly salty, but this "move" is - right now - 100% legit.  It's even quite simple to understand that it is legit. The only requirement for piling in is being in 3" range OR you've made a charge move earlier in the same turn. And retreating only hinders you from shooting or charging - piling in is still possible. 

The OR makes this possibly, but this OR is necessary to move the whole unit, not just models which made it possible to get into 3". Retreating normaly has its "failsave" written by stating you need to end your retreat out of 3" of the enemy. 

It's again oviously a loophole, nasty and not as intended.  But i think the benefit is not as high as you depict it to be, we'll see. 

Edit: Aw holy moly. I totally forgot that enemies out of 3" can't hit you, but you hit them back when activated properly... nevermind, this is bonkers. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by DerZauberer
Ow lawd.

[Kasper]

3 hours ago, DerZauberer said:

It's again oviously a loophole, nasty and not as intended.  But i think the benefit is not as high as you depict it to be, we'll see. 

Edit: Aw holy moly. I totally forgot that enemies out of 3" can't hit you, but you hit them back when activated properly... nevermind, this is bonkers. 

Yeah in cases like this I would love if they would come out and say "green light, go ahead, its intended" or FAQ it right away. Right now it feels a little awful to pull off the trick in casual games.

Right now you can effectively ignore the whole "activation wars" since nobody can attack you before you pile in and attack them (due to being outside of 3"), but you also have the potential to leapfrog 18" across multiple screens with your Maw Krusha during the retreat move and then destroy that juicy Kairos/Lord of Change/Whatever important character is sitting comfortably behind screens.

Do keep in mind the Maw Krusha base is huge, so even with 18" your opponent still needs to leave some massive room.  

Edited January 21, 2020 by Kasper

[whispersofblood]

Tbh the method explained is the most tame version available.

[Ravinsild]

You know what though it feels like it fits into the Orruk lore at least for the Ironsunz of being kunnin’ and like actually using tactics and strategy to win and striking when and where the enemy doesn’t expect haha. So I guess it’s fluffy?  

[PlasticCraic]

8 hours ago, Kasper said:

Right now you can effectively ignore the whole "activation wars" since nobody can attack you before you pile in and attack them

Eh that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Piling in from outside of 3" is already a big part of Activation Wars (see: Tyrants of Blood).  To be back inside melee range after your pile in, you'll need to start a maximum of 3.9" or 4.9" away depending on the weapon profile (and mostly the former) so any 6" pile in players in Activation Wars will still have you.  See: Tyrants of Blood, Yhetees, Sisters of Slaughter, Bonegrinder Gargants...

Furthermore you'll still be in range for Locus of Diversion at the end of the charge phase, which is another big player in Activation Wars.  So you're not ignoring that either.

It's another tool in Activation Wars, it doesn't bypass the whole thing.

[PlasticCraic]

13 hours ago, Malakree said:

Honestly it's a massive buff to Ironjawz that you can do it and easily brings them back into being competitive compared to Big Waaagh!

It's one reason why I always take a Brutish Cunning Megaboss in Big Waaagh lists.  But then I don't (currently) play the big Ardifst lists.

13 hours ago, Malakree said:

Honestly it's a massive buff to Ironjawz that you can do it and easily brings them back into being competitive compared to Big Waaagh! It's also an enormous buff to Bloodtoofs, fast un, hand of gork and even the maw krusha.

The others I get, but why does it help Hand of Gork?

Also: Ghyrropian Gauntlets :-)

[Andrew G]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

It's one reason why I always take a Brutish Cunning Megaboss in Big Waaagh lists.  But then I don't (currently) play the big Ardifst lists.

The others I get, but why does it help Hand of Gork?

Also: Ghyrropian Gauntlets 🙂

It can put you within 12" of something in the Hero phase, so you can then MD-charge, retreat, and then pile-in.  

So, perfect example is a screening unit across the front of the opponents entire army with supporting pieces and hammers spaced to deny deepstrike (so, 9" from board edges). You can teleport your MK to an extreme flank, MD-charge the corner of the screen, retreat over the screen so you're 3.1 inches away from a supporting piece and then just go to town in their backfield. 

[Kasper]

8 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Eh that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Piling in from outside of 3" is already a big part of Activation Wars (see: Tyrants of Blood).  To be back inside melee range after your pile in, you'll need to start a maximum of 3.9" or 4.9" away depending on the weapon profile (and mostly the former) so any 6" pile in players in Activation Wars will still have you.  See: Tyrants of Blood, Yhetees, Sisters of Slaughter, Bonegrinder Gargants...

Furthermore you'll still be in range for Locus of Diversion at the end of the charge phase, which is another big player in Activation Wars.  So you're not ignoring that either.

It's another tool in Activation Wars, it doesn't bypass the whole thing.

Tyrants of Blood is certainly a thing that I didnt take into account and is very real. Sisters doesnt seem to be used that often and Yhetees and Bonegrinder is just grasping at straws. Nobody uses those.

Locus of Diversion is irrelevant. If you sit outside of 3” of a Keeper, it doesnt matter if you fight at the end of the combat phase, since the Keeper cant pile in at all due to being outside of 3”, hence not in combat. So you will be attacking the Keeper first, obviously assuming you didnt put it into combat with some other unit, but even then you could potentially place the MK so he has to pile away from it.

[Malakree]

9 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

The others I get, but why does it help Hand of Gork?

7 hours ago, Andrew G said:

It can put you within 12" of something in the Hero phase, so you can then MD-charge, retreat, and then pile-in.  

You actually can't because HoG stops you moving in the movement phase. I'm just an idiot 😅

[RuneBrush]

The charge in hero phase shenanigans was done at Brotherhood this weekend - was checked by a number of people (including Ben Johnson), who couldn't see anything wrong with it 😉

[Ravinsild]

34 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

The charge in hero phase shenanigans was done at Brotherhood this weekend - was checked by a number of people (including Ben Johnson), who couldn't see anything wrong with it 😉

Dumb question I reckon but uh who is Ben Johnson? One of the top players of the game or something?

[Kasper]

19 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Dumb question I reckon but uh who is Ben Johnson? One of the top players of the game or something?

Games Workshop Product Developer.  He often showcases newly released armies live on twitch.tv too.

If that guy gave it a nod, I'm all in on that. 

 

54 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

The charge in hero phase shenanigans was done at Brotherhood this weekend - was checked by a number of people (including Ben Johnson), who couldn't see anything wrong with it 😉

Out of curiousity, how do you know? Did you attend?  I'd love to somehow reference him giving it an okay, because quite a few who I've shared this trick with is still very much on the fence about it. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Kasper

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

Out of curiousity, how do you know? Did you attend?  I'd love to somehow reference him giving it an okay, because quite a few who I've shared this trick with is still very much on the fence about it. 

He's a regular on the UK tournament scene. 

[RuneBrush]

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

Out of curiousity, how do you know? Did you attend?  I'd love to somehow reference him giving it an okay, because quite a few who I've shared this trick with is still very much on the fence about it. 

I did indeed attend!  Was a really great event and came 19th out of 22 (was super competitive and my team wasn't).

One of my team had one player do the shenanigan to him and he mentioned it in passing to Ben (not in a "is this right" but in a "wow, never spotted this").  Ben (and in fact the team he was in) looked and basically went "that's cool, can't see any reason why it can't be done, why haven't I thought of this before".  This doesn't give it an official green light under any circumstance, but certainly at the present time means there isn't any obvious reason that makes it an invalid action!