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AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion


Malakithe

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9 hours ago, Malakree said:

I really don't, it's so random and the weirdnob is just a garbage caster I'd only take one for an extremely high impact spell which HoG just isn't. It's not like Gloomspite where we're slow and have trouble going round chaff or killing the enemy in a straight up fight. Sure the threat is nice but the level of mobility makes it a non-issue.

From my experience our mobility is great but it only gets you so far. Being able to threaten their backline is so good. I have had multiple games where my opponent literally wastes easily over 200 pts in chaff to zone a potential teleport, meanwhile my entire army moves forward and is doing work. Also makes it much easier for the pigs or cabbage to do work since you essentially remove a couple of screens.

I dont see myself ever playing without one, just to mess with deployment and movement throughout the entire game. I wouldnt call him garbage, and I wouldnt classify the teleport as a non-impact spell. It can easily be game deciding. But hey, if it works for you!

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26 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I dont see myself ever playing without one, just to mess with deployment and movement throughout the entire game. I wouldnt call him garbage, and I wouldnt classify the teleport as a non-impact spell. It can easily be game deciding. But hey, if it works for you!

What I mean is, he's a one cast wizard who functionally has no warscroll spell or abilities that you have to pay 110 points for, if I have to choose between him and a warchanter I would take warchanter number 3.

I understand the value of a teleport but using my list with the 3d6 charge and Mighty Destroyers abuse I find that I can get round chaff so easily. Even if they do screen properly I send a unit of 15 buffed up Ardboys in and they kill the opponents chaff. Their big stuff then needs to come forward and deal with the Ardboys leaving it open for the GG's/MK to butcher.

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Here I was going to use Brain Burster haha. It just seems fun. 
 

I’m just coming back to the game. It feels like Mortal Wounds are important to the game, Mobility and hitting hard are important to the game. 
 

I was looking at Ironfist or Brutefist (mobility or mortal wounds), Bloodtoofs for Mobility (bonuses to charge and run, 1 free HoG, can move after a kill). Gore Gruntas and MawKrusha can deal mortal wounds. Everyone kind of hits hard. 
 

Warchanters can buff mobility (3D6 charge) and hitting hard (damage buff) and heal which is nice. 

Any input? Not sure where we are at but as usual I’m solo Ironjawz, don’t got any wild boys and don’t want any. Ironjawz is my favorite army. Straight forward, simple and to the point. 

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15 hours ago, Malakree said:

I really don't, it's so random and the weirdnob is just a garbage caster I'd only take one for an extremely high impact spell which HoG just isn't. It's not like Gloomspite where we're slow and have trouble going round chaff or killing the enemy in a straight up fight. Sure the threat is nice but the level of mobility makes it a non-issue.

6++ save, Wurrgog Prophet, +1/+1, Zap Em

Additionally due to how the list works smashing and bashing isn't an issue, I have 2 big hitters in the cabbage, who is tanked up, and the GG's. The Ardboys are there as objective holders and a huge threatening tarpit. The unit of 20 literally tanked 4 bloodthirsters yesterday and then did 12 damage back. If I had to make any changes it would be this.

Currently the brutes are functioning as 5 Ardboys with worse bravery. This would put the Boarboyz in their role but also give me another fast unit which can aggressively claim poorly held objectives.

For 80 points I feels like on paper that the uh guys from Shadespire seem legitimately good? Maybe?

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2 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

For 80 points I feels like on paper that the uh guys from Shadespire seem legitimately good? Maybe?

Yeah I don't hate them, on paper at least. 

I think their biggest issue is that they can't go in any Battalion, so they cost you a drop.  Which puts them at a disadvantage in their direct competition with 5 Ardboys. 

But if you really, really need that 10 points...I don't think they're terrible.

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11 hours ago, Malakree said:

What I mean is, he's a one cast wizard who functionally has no warscroll spell or abilities that you have to pay 110 points for, if I have to choose between him and a warchanter I would take warchanter number 3.

I understand the value of a teleport but using my list with the 3d6 charge and Mighty Destroyers abuse I find that I can get round chaff so easily. Even if they do screen properly I send a unit of 15 buffed up Ardboys in and they kill the opponents chaff. Their big stuff then needs to come forward and deal with the Ardboys leaving it open for the GG's/MK to butcher.

I just don't understand that you call Hand of Gork "random", but you reliably get to charge units in your hero phase? If you really need the teleport to go off, you can tap D6 into the BW points. That makes it rather reliable in my eyes. Especially if you already run with another artefact that gives +1. I usually run Green Visions however since I need the CPs for the Waagh Banner Orruk Warboss.

The 3D6 beat can't be used with the "MD hero phase charge"-trick, since it is used in the charge phase. Do you purposely move your pigs/MK within 12" but skip a round of battle by not charging in? Just sitting behind another of your units? I don't see how you reliably can pull the trick off unless you leave units stranded.

I'm not trying to convince you, I just don't get the arguement for why he's bad. 😉 Sure he's a 1 cast wizard, but I don't need more than the threat of the Hand of Gork spell or Mystic Shield either way. In my games he easily pays for himself since he makes the enemy waste more pts. zoning out the table. 

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On 1/19/2020 at 12:07 AM, Malakree said:

 

GG+ironfist...I abused the everliving ****** outta the hero phase charge, run and retreat to a 3" pile in. It's so disgusting I can't even begin to express it. Literally won me game 2 vs tyrants of blood because I had a free hand break mechanism vs the always strikes first.

 

Can you explain this in a bit more depth? Ta.

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3 hours ago, Kasper said:

just don't understand that you call Hand of Gork "random", but you reliably get to charge units in your hero phase? If you really need the teleport to go off, you can tap D6 into the BW points. That makes it rather reliable in my eyes.

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

I'm not trying to convince you, I just don't get the arguement for why he's bad. 😉 Sure he's a 1 cast wizard, but I don't need more than the threat of the Hand of Gork spell or Mystic Shield either way. In my games he easily pays for himself since he makes the enemy waste more pts. zoning out the table. 

So one of my arguments is that the weirdnob itself is just a bad warscroll. Ignore everything else which goes on around it, ignore artefacts and the warscroll is awful.

As to the HoG being random, unbinds are a thing and a lot of races have them. So you first have to cast it, then you have to have it not unbound which when you consider the number of "No" floating around actually becomes tricky. You're also running into things which have high + to cast/unbind native. Hence my comment that it's random.

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

Especially if you already run with another artefact that gives +1. I usually run Green Visions however since I need the CPs for the Waagh Banner Orruk Warboss.

I'd just rather have a Wurrgog prophet who takes morks boney bits and is just an amazing warscroll on it's own. This is the problem, the weirdnob doesn't exist in a vacuum and the options around it are all amazing.

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

The 3D6 beat can't be used with the "MD hero phase charge"-trick, since it is used in the charge phase. Do you purposely move your pigs/MK within 12" but skip a round of battle by not charging in? Just sitting behind another of your units? I don't see how you reliably can pull the trick off unless you leave units stranded.

So the thing about mighty destroyers has always been. A free move in the hero phase is amazing, a free pile in and attack in the hero phase is amazing, a charge in the hero phase is just bleh. The trick makes the charge in the hero phase amazing. So it now doesn't matter whether the opposing unit is within 12" or not you're pigs should always be getting that massive mobility.

As to the beat, again it contributes to threat range, a unit of Ardboys can now be theoretically pulling a 21" charge, that's just mental. More over if put on a flying unit, like say a cabbage, the threat of jumping the enemy line is now crazy. Combine with a MD charge, 18" run over their line and suddenly all the support pieces are under threat. 

The list isn't about doing trixy stuff, it's about straight up beating anyone who tries to fight it at any range.

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49 minutes ago, Caffran101 said:

Can you explain this in a bit more depth? Ta.

Quote

PILING IN

A unit can make a pile-in move if it is within 3" of an enemy unit or has made a charge move in the same turn. If this is the case, you can move each model in the unit up to 3". Each model must finish its pile-in move at least as close to the nearest enemy model as it was at the start of the move.

You have made a charge in the hero phase which is part of that turn. This means you don't need to be within 3" of an enemy to pile in, thus can retreat and still pile in later in the turn.

So charge with the pigs, I made an 11" charge on sat, 14" run retreat to be able to pile in and attack without being "in combat"

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6 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So one of my arguments is that the weirdnob itself is just a bad warscroll. Ignore everything else which goes on around it, ignore artefacts and the warscroll is awful.

As to the HoG being random, unbinds are a thing and a lot of races have them. So you first have to cast it, then you have to have it not unbound which when you consider the number of "No" floating around actually becomes tricky. You're also running into things which have high + to cast/unbind native. Hence my comment that it's random.

But you can't just look at a warscroll in a vacuum. You have to take into consideration how it actually plays on the table. Anything else seems meaningless to me.

My Weirdnob isn't on the table to challenge Nagash's magic, he's there to sit miles behind and teleport something wholly within 24". He can comfortably sit way out of unbinding range yet still teleport stuff half way across the table. Rolling a 4 on two dice if you have tapped into the BW points and taken the +1 artefact doesn't seem unreliable to me.

I'll admit I haven't fought the Bonereapers and nobody at my local plays Plague Monks (they don't want to be *that guy*) so I'm a little biased towards the Wurrgog and haven't found him that necessary for clearing horde units. Most other stuff we can straight up kill in a close combat.

6 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So the thing about mighty destroyers has always been. A free move in the hero phase is amazing, a free pile in and attack in the hero phase is amazing, a charge in the hero phase is just bleh. The trick makes the charge in the hero phase amazing. So it now doesn't matter whether the opposing unit is within 12" or not you're pigs should always be getting that massive mobility.

As to the beat, again it contributes to threat range, a unit of Ardboys can now be theoretically pulling a 21" charge, that's just mental. More over if put on a flying unit, like say a cabbage, the threat of jumping the enemy line is now crazy. Combine with a MD charge, 18" run over their line and suddenly all the support pieces are under threat. 

The list isn't about doing trixy stuff, it's about straight up beating anyone who tries to fight it at any range.

I'm not debating if Mighty Destroyers is good. It is frankly batshit crazy and feels on the verge of being broken whenever I suddenly cover a lot of ground with my Maw Krusha and get into a spot my opponent didn't expect because I had played defensive previously.

I'm genuine curious how you manage to pull the MD skip trick off, because you make it sound rather reliable and easy. From my experience it is very rare the oppotunity presents itself. It is usually just if I destroy something in my turn and I get the double turn, else it is rare my unit is stranded and left alone  between 12" and 3" from an enemy unit for an entire turn.

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Just now, Ravinsild said:

Is pure Ironjawz dead? Every single list I’ve looked at in the thread so far has been about the big waaagh but there’s been no solo Ironjawz. 

There is an Ironjawz specific thread. I think this thread lends itself towards Big Waagh talk where both factions are combined. Pure Ironjawz is very much alive and offers something different that Big Waagh can't. 

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Just now, Kasper said:

There is an Ironjawz specific thread. I think this thread lends itself towards Big Waagh talk where both factions are combined. Pure Ironjawz is very much alive and offers something different that Big Waagh can't. 

Ooooh I thought this thread replaced that thread since the Ironjawz Battletome was retired and this is the new one lol oops. Facepalming rn...

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The teleport is crazy good, and very reliable with good positioning in Big Waaagh! I garentee you will see it 75%+ competitive Big Waaagh! lists. 

Probably a good idea to include both the Wurgog  and the Weirdnob anyway, having two wizards to spam Zap Em!(not just casts) seems like the sweet spot for me.

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53 minutes ago, Andrew G said:

The teleport is crazy good, and very reliable with good positioning in Big Waaagh! I garentee you will see it 75%+ competitive Big Waaagh! lists. 

Probably a good idea to include both the Wurgog  and the Weirdnob anyway, having two wizards to spam Zap Em!(not just casts) seems like the sweet spot for me.

My none cabbage list runs a Wurrgog and a Weirdnob...I just want to use wrath of gork instead 😅

57 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

Is pure Ironjawz dead? Every single list I’ve looked at in the thread so far has been about the big waaagh but there’s been no solo Ironjawz. 

The main reason I'm looking at Big Waaagh is because Slaughter has banned the Malign Sorcery aretefacts so I can't use my aethercrutch broach :( 

I'd also not realised the stupid Mighty Destroyers stuff which makes Ironjawz SIGNIFICANTLY better but it's a bit late for me to try and shift gears since I don't have another practice tournament before then.

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1 hour ago, Malakree said:

You have made a charge in the hero phase

Core rules clearly state a „charge move“ happens only in charge phase :) so no pile in later :) Same as with stormcast birds, they „move“ and make no „normal move“ hence they can move within 3“ of a model. 
In the end TO / Faq has to clear this . 

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17 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Core rules clearly state a „charge move“ happens only in charge phase :) so no pile in later :) Same as with stormcast birds, they „move“ and make no „normal move“ hence they can move within 3“ of a model. 
In the end TO / Faq has to clear this . 

Mighty Destroyers says you "must attempt to charge". It is most definitely a charge move. I'm sure GW didn't think about adding rules that broke the normal pace of hero phase - movement - shooting - charge etc. when they wrote the rules for piling in, but they could have FAQ'd Mighty Destroyers to simply state something along the lines of a unit charging with Mighty Destroyers can't retreat. Or they could have FAQ'd the retreat rules to exclude fighting/piling in, instead of just shooting and charging.

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11 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Mighty Destroyers says you "must attempt to charge". It is most definitely a charge move. I'm sure GW didn't think about adding rules that broke the normal pace of hero phase - movement - shooting - charge etc. when they wrote the rules for piling in, but they could have FAQ'd Mighty Destroyers to simply state something along the lines of a unit charging with Mighty Destroyers can't retreat. Or they could have FAQ'd the retreat rules to exclude fighting/piling in, instead of just shooting and charging.

Or just errata the pile in rule to "if you made a charge in the preceding charge phase"

@schwabbele

https://ageofsigmar.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2018/06/AoS_Rules-ENG.pdf

Quote

You can change the position of a model on the battlefield by making a move with the model. Models can be moved in the movement phase, the charge phase and the combat phase, and some abilities may allow a model to make a move in other phases too.

This establishes that moves which occur out of phase are also "Moves"

Quote

When you make a normal move for a model, no part of the move can be within 3" of an enemy unit. Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat. If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units. Models in a unit that retreats can’t shoot or charge later in the same turn.

This establishes that the term "Charge" is used interchangeably with "Charge Move" in the core rules itself.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/8f9bd00c.pdf

Quote

Q: If a warscroll or set of allegiance abilities has a rule that contradicts the core rules, can I use it? For example, Lord Kroak has a rule that allows him to attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the hero phase, but this contradicts the core rule that you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn.

A: Warscrolls and allegiance abilities take precedence over the core rules that appear before the core rules for battleplans, warscrolls and allegiance abilities. This allows you to do things that would not normally be allowed. In the case of Lord Kroak, his rule means he can attempt to cast Celestial Deliverance up to three times in the same turn.

This shows that the Mighty Destroyers allegiance ability overrides the core rules.

From the Orruk Warclans book.

Quote

Mighty Destroyers

You can use this command ability in your hero phase. If you do so pick one friendly Ironjawz unit...and must attempt to charge in any other circumstances.

This shows that Mighty Destroyers is FORCING the unit to make a "Charge" which, as shown above, is interchangable with the term "Charge Move".

https://ageofsigmar.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2018/06/AoS_Rules-ENG.pdf

Quote

A unit can make a pile-in move if it is within 3" of an enemy unit or has made a charge move in the same turn. If this is the case, you can move each model in the unit up to 3". Each model must finish its pile-in move at least as close to the nearest enemy model as it was at the start of the move.

Stating a unit can pile in if the unit has "made a charge move in the same turn" .

Thus

  • The Ironjawz command ability overrides the core rules as it is an allegiance ability.
  • It forces a unit to make a "charge" in the hero phase.
  • In the core rules the term "charge" is used interchangeably with the term "charge move".
  • Mighty Destroyers forces the unit to make a "charge move".
  • A unit can pile in and attack as long as it has made a "charge move" in the same turn.
  • Mighty Destroyers has forced the unit to make a "charge move" in the hero phase which is in the same turn as the following combat phase.
  • The unit has made a "charge move" in that turn therefore can pile in and attack even if they are outside 3".

QED

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As far as I know, tournaments are letting the charge-retreat move work. That's enough evidence for me to assume it's legal.

 

3 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

Is pure Ironjawz dead? Every single list I’ve looked at in the thread so far has been about the big waaagh but there’s been no solo Ironjawz. 

I saw a post that stated that there are equal amounts of Big Waaagh and Ironjawz armies at LVO. So it' s about equal right now.

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45 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

It is not :) 

Assume that the term "charge" and "charge" move are not interchangeable this gives us the following situation.

  1. The rules state "units which retreat cannot shoot or charge later in the turn"
  2. "Charge" and "Charge Move" are not interchangeable.
  3. Thus retreating only stops you from making a "charge" not a "charge move"
  4. The Charge Phase rules say "Any of your units within 12" of the enemy in your charge phase can attempt to make a charge move."
  5. Hence you can retreat and still make a charge move.

Thus we have reached a situation where EITHER

Mighty Destroyers allows you to charge, retreat and still pile in

OR

Everyone can retreat and still make a "charge move" in the charge phase.

Take your pick because honestly either suits me, I'd love to have 2 phases of impact hits for free.

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27 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Assume that the term "charge" and "charge" move are not interchangeable this gives us the following situation.

  1. The rules state "units which retreat cannot shoot or charge later in the turn"
  2. "Charge" and "Charge Move" are not interchangeable.
  3. Thus retreating only stops you from making a "charge" not a "charge move"
  4. The Charge Phase rules say "Any of your units within 12" of the enemy in your charge phase can attempt to make a charge move."
  5. Hence you can retreat and still make a charge move.

Thus we have reached a situation where EITHER

Mighty Destroyers allows you to charge, retreat and still pile in

OR

Everyone can retreat and still make a "charge move" in the charge phase.

Take your pick because honestly either suits me, I'd love to have 2 phases of impact hits for free.

I think the point is the Core Rules don't allow you to make a charge after having retreated, but with Mighty Destroyers the charge has happened before the retreat.  Therefore you are not breaking the Core Rules.

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How does the Rip-Tooth Fist work? Intuition says every 6 = a mortal wound but they wrote it strangely. It says "The attacking unit suffers 1 mortal wound after all of its attacks have been resolved." so it almost seems like if you roll 12 saves and get 3 6's then you still only deal 1 mortal wound. 

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