AoS 2 - Orruk Warclans Discussion

[EMMachine]

17 hours ago, Halchuuu said:

The Mighty Waaagh requires the Orruck keyword only, which Greenskinz have. It's at the start of the book. Greenskinz are legal until faq'd or legends replaces their keywords. Legends afaik is going to be matched play legal too; GHB 2018 deliberately stated as much. 

The orcs and goblins are already legends (they have their legendslist since January 2019 on warhammer community.

The thing that will most likely happen in my oppinion is that we will get an Errata in the Generals Handbook 2019 like this:

Quote

Page 16 – Order Pitched Battle Profiles, Greenskins
Remove the following pitched battle profiles:

• Orruks
• Orruk Great Shaman
• Orruk Warboss
• Orruk Warboss on Wyvern
• Orruk Boarboys
• Orruk Boar Chariots

Or update the GA Destruction Errata:

Quote

Pages xxx-xxx –Greenskins
These warscrolls are no longer used.

Last thing is quite unlikely because they didn't update after Gloomspite Gitz or Gitmob (in last case they simply vanished from the shop and the Generals Handbook)

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

I realise this is a bit harsh and not something which should ordinarily be posted on here.

MWG are bad. They are meh teir players making content for "casuals".

As casual watching it's fine. For a commentary on the state of the game or strength of various factions they are pointless.

Not really a fan of them either, not because of the casual stuff (I like casual and narrative) but more because the hide halve of their campaigns behind a paywall.

Edited October 1, 2019 by EMMachine

[Chunk]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

I realise this is a bit harsh and not something which should ordinarily be posted on here.

MWG are bad. They are meh teir players making content for "casuals".

As casual watching it's fine. For a commentary on the state of the game or strength of various factions they are pointless.

You can play casually and still get all the rules right.

MWG's issue has nothing to do with them being casual and everything to do with them not reading the rules properly.

[Malakree]

35 minutes ago, Chunk said:

You can play casually and still get all the rules right.

MWG's issue has nothing to do with them being casual and everything to do with them not reading the rules properly.

To Clarify so that this issue can be put to rest since, as I said, it really has no place on this forum.

Content on MWG should not be used as a judge for anything because they don't play all the rules correctly. As an extension of this they also don't play the game well. This means that "results" which come out of them have to be viewed with scepticism because we don't know if it's the rules/armies being unbalanced producing that result or the players just being bad. The best equivalent is someone saying "BCR are OP, in my local group there's this one guy who plays 4 thundertusks and he wins every game!"

• Additionally, when I use the term "casuals" I'm using it in the sense of people who are playing none competitively and aren't 100% hard and fast with the rules.
• On the other hand when I say "casual watching" I'm referring to lighthearted easy watching. The difference between a kickabout and a premier league match.

So not trying to disparage anybody, except maybe MWG. I'm saying that if they produce 5 results where IJ rolls HoS it's relatively meaningless.

[Scurvydog]

3 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

@JackStreicher How did that even happen when Locus is a thing, and Ironjawz bleed Depravity?

The only way I can think of is that Slaanesh went first and flung all their Battleline out to die without any support, thereby leaving their Heroes unscreened to be picked off afterwards.

i.e. deliberately or accidentally played right into the IJ hands, and making them look good.

That is basically what happened, saying warchanters i overpowered based on that battle report is the kind of attitude creating problems for this game. The Slaneesh player has all the tools to deal with the Ironjawz but chose to just parade forth and get engaged by ardboyz on all fronts. No effort to deal with the warchanters either.

I play against people with this mentality as well who just scream OP because if the raw damage output a model or unit CAN output when supported, while they expect to win with no effort but just moving models forward and roll dice. 

If you just move forward with your squishy but mobile and tactically diverse army to just brawl with Ironjawz, then you already lost and deserve to lose. Smart players will screen their units against all the Ironjawz battlelines, and find ways to deny them their buffs, then they have nothing.

Anything with good shooting or magic will also be a gatekeeper, just pick of the warchanters and Ironjawz have nothing, all the power comes from them. I am not saying the damage output cant be great, but the army still have no tactical options worth talking about compared to so many other of the top armies right now. 

Skaven will just shoot down warchanters and screen the intial wave of orruks. DoK can actually brawl with them but are better at the objective game. LoN can just put screens in the way, if they explode just bring back the unit for 1 CP it doesnt matter, Ironjawz have no way to reach any important character, the only flyer can easily be denied landing anywhere important. A Good Idoneth player will wait to get first strike, should be easy to plan for with the low movement of Ironjawz if you dont trigger too many MaH. 

Ironjawz is the rolling rock from Crash Bandicoot, if it hits you yea you die, but it is not all that hard to avoid that. 

[Requizen]

4 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

That is basically what happened, saying warchanters i overpowered based on that battle report is the kind of attitude creating problems for this game. The Slaneesh player has all the tools to deal with the Ironjawz but chose to just parade forth and get engaged by ardboyz on all fronts. No effort to deal with the warchanters either.

I play against people with this mentality as well who just scream OP because if the raw damage output a model or unit CAN output when supported, while they expect to win with no effort but just moving models forward and roll dice. 

If you just move forward with your squishy but mobile and tactically diverse army to just brawl with Ironjawz, then you already lost and deserve to lose. Smart players will screen their units against all the Ironjawz battlelines, and find ways to deny them their buffs, then they have nothing.

Anything with good shooting or magic will also be a gatekeeper, just pick of the warchanters and Ironjawz have nothing, all the power comes from them. I am not saying the damage output cant be great, but the army still have no tactical options worth talking about compared to so many other of the top armies right now. 

Skaven will just shoot down warchanters and screen the intial wave of orruks. DoK can actually brawl with them but are better at the objective game. LoN can just put screens in the way, if they explode just bring back the unit for 1 CP it doesnt matter, Ironjawz have no way to reach any important character, the only flyer can easily be denied landing anywhere important. A Good Idoneth player will wait to get first strike, should be easy to plan for with the low movement of Ironjawz if you dont trigger too many MaH. 

Ironjawz is the rolling rock from Crash Bandicoot, if it hits you yea you die, but it is not all that hard to avoid that. 

Yeah I ended up watching it and it was not indicative of a game at any reasonable level of play. If you engage a fully buffed army on all fronts with all your important models, you've done nothing but make a mistake. The Slaanesh player could have done a dozen things differently and had a much higher chance of victory. Also, his attack dice on his most important models were pretty bonk, so that never helps.

I don't think it should surprise anyone that Ironjawz will beat a lot of armies in a straight up fight - that's in fact the point of the army. 

[Sleboda]

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

Content on MWG should not be used as a judge for anything because they don't play all the rules correctly.

I really, really want to like their content. It's pretty well produced (I was a professional videographer/editor in a previous life) and there is a lot of it. Unfortunately, some of the folks on camera need some coaching, and without it, they are tough to watch. Abbreviations, talking too quickly, assumptions ... it makes it hard to enjoy, which is a bummer.

 

There are so few really enjoyable 'casts out there.

 

To bring this on topic, I'll say that it makes the disappointment even more disappointing because I'm trying to learn about my orcs in prep for an upcoming tournament. I already messed up by putting choppas on my gruntas, so I'd like to find good 'casts to help me avoid other errors.

Thank goodness for this site! 😁

Edited October 1, 2019 by Sleboda

[TALegion]

Quick question about the Brutish Cunning command trait and Ironfist battalion. Are these usable in a Big Waaagh army, or do you need to be an Ironjawz army to use Might Destroyers?

[Gothmaug]

I personally enjoy MWG, their games are more casual, and yes they make rules mistakes, but they also purposely take sub par units and try different  strategies which keeps things interesting. It would be boring to watch  the same top tier tournament list over and over again, and I enjoy seeing them use monsters and units that would be skipped over by tournament players.

i watch their shows for entertainment, I come here for rule mastery and strategy

[Requizen]

24 minutes ago, TALegion said:

Quick question about the Brutish Cunning command trait and Ironfist battalion. Are these usable in a Big Waaagh army, or do you need to be an Ironjawz army to use Might Destroyers?

That... is a very good question. I would say Brutish Cunning would not work, as it lets you use it without a CP, but you still don't have access to the CA in the first place. 

Can you use Ironfist in the first place? Big Waaagh requires you to all have the Orruk keyword, and the Battalion has the Ironjawz keyword. But all the units have Orruk? Not sure how that works.

[TALegion]

11 minutes ago, Requizen said:

That... is a very good question. I would say Brutish Cunning would not work, as it lets you use it without a CP, but you still don't have access to the CA in the first place. 

Can you use Ironfist in the first place? Big Waaagh requires you to all have the Orruk keyword, and the Battalion has the Ironjawz keyword. But all the units have Orruk? Not sure how that works.

I agree on Brutal Cunning - I'm almost certain that you can't use it. Ironfist is a little less clearly worded, just saying that you can use as if it were a megaboss without spending the point. It'd still make sense to say "No," because it's "as if it were a megaboss," but a Big Waaagh megaboss still wouldn't be able to use it.

I was under the impression that we could use battalions in a Big Waaagh. The page calls them "Orruk warscrolls and warscroll battalions," making them an Orruk option, rather than specifically IJ or bonesplitterz (as I read it). Is there a part that I'm missing where the battalions have "Ironjawz" as a keyword, but not "Orruk"?

[Scurvydog]

1 hour ago, TALegion said:

Quick question about the Brutish Cunning command trait and Ironfist battalion. Are these usable in a Big Waaagh army, or do you need to be an Ironjawz army to use Might Destroyers?

GW has so far been very unclear about this, for example their community team at least saw no issue with for example Legion of Grief from forbidden power using nighthaunt battalions, as long as the right models are in them and they are also allowed inside the allegiance. I'd say that is the case here.

The Ironfist will need a FAQ I think unless someone got any preceding evidence to prove one thing or the other. 

[JackStreicher]

7 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

That is basically what happened, saying warchanters i overpowered based on that battle report is the kind of attitude creating problems for this game. The Slaneesh player has all the tools to deal with the Ironjawz but chose to just parade forth and get engaged by ardboyz on all fronts. No effort to deal with the warchanters either.

I play against people with this mentality as well who just scream OP because if the raw damage output a model or unit CAN output when supported, while they expect to win with no effort but just moving models forward and roll dice. 

If you just move forward with your squishy but mobile and tactically diverse army to just brawl with Ironjawz, then you already lost and deserve to lose. Smart players will screen their units against all the Ironjawz battlelines, and find ways to deny them their buffs, then they have nothing.

Anything with good shooting or magic will also be a gatekeeper, just pick of the warchanters and Ironjawz have nothing, all the power comes from them. I am not saying the damage output cant be great, but the army still have no tactical options worth talking about compared to so many other of the top armies right now. 

Skaven will just shoot down warchanters and screen the intial wave of orruks. DoK can actually brawl with them but are better at the objective game. LoN can just put screens in the way, if they explode just bring back the unit for 1 CP it doesnt matter, Ironjawz have no way to reach any important character, the only flyer can easily be denied landing anywhere important. A Good Idoneth player will wait to get first strike, should be easy to plan for with the low movement of Ironjawz if you dont trigger too many MaH. 

Ironjawz is the rolling rock from Crash Bandicoot, if it hits you yea you die, but it is not all that hard to avoid that. 

Tbh it is absurd if a buff that DOUBLES the damage output of most of your units and has no requirement other than wholly within 18“.  A spell you could unbind or the caster could fail, a prayer could fail. This however is there with no counter-play to it. Try to deny that buff (which you also had no suggestion to in your answer).

the only way to deal with the warchanter is with shooting which quite some armies lack (DoK, All Undeath, Darklings etc.).

granted: you kill off one warchanter, what about the other 2? Are you going to run away until you can get your hands on them? (Kind of Hard considering Orruks are pretty fast with all their special rules). Even if you kill off all warchanters the orruks are still a threat and it‘s not like the enemy will wait with scoring until you can find a gab to kill off the Unit that makes his ENTIRE ARMY around him oneshot everything you throw at them.

 

the only unit that is on par with warchanter orruks are Hearthguard berzerkers within range of a hero and these stunties are ludacris themselves.

 

30 Witch Elves are equally „broken“, but for that you have to give them:

a.) Witch brew

b.) a hero needs to be close by

c.) you have to chant a prayer on them (Catechism)

d.) you have to cast mindrazor on them

e.) they have to have more bravery than you.

what do orruks need? Oh that‘s right ONE Warchanter wholly within 18“

Edited October 1, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Scurvydog]

So it is overpowered Orruks get a character to increase damage by one, while we have armies who can fight first or force others to fight last while also having access to fighting twice, after they already fought first... ok then. Slaneesh can do all this and also summon and be far more mobile.

I'll eat my words if we suddenly see Orruks dominate the tournament scene, but that is not going to happen, they are good brawlers in a fair fight because of huge output, but that matters little against armies simply breaking the normal rules of the game. 

Fyreslayers with their battalion with rend 2 and 2 dmg infantry which can fight twice? Keeper of Secrets forcing you to fight last and beating on you twice. Flesh eaters same deal charges in and fight first and twice on the big beastie. These are the types of rules making top armies, as they not only deal a lot of damage, but also dictate the flow of battle and counters strategy. Warchanters, while super good, does none of these things.

Nearly all the power of the tome is put into warchanters. Remove them and the army can't stand up to anything. Mighty destroyers is NOT the same as fight again in the combat phase. This only works when already engaged after at least 1 round of combat, maybe more if double turned, so it does not help at all in the situation you need it the most.

I would be thrilled if warchanters did not give such a good buff, but with the poor quality of the book and extremely limited options and unit variety, the designer chose to just put all eggs in one basket. It will end up being just as lame as before, with games being over by turn 2 one way or the other. I do not look forward to play the new book against my friends, as the ones with very casual armies and lists will just get mowed down, unless a very deliberately take the worst setups and play bad by choice, while my friends who play competetively will still just roll over Ironjawz. Like LoN put some dire wolves in a congo line, it doesnt matter if the ardboyz do 10 or 500 damage, they still have no way to pass enemy lines, to control or counter magic heavy play, to alter the combat activations, nothing.

[Requizen]

Damage output on a unit is by and far not the thing that makes things overpowered. Mobility, ability interaction, enemy denial, and being able to ignore particular game rules is what makes certain armies and units strong.

Ironjawz were already able to outpunch most armies in the game. Brutes and Mawkrushas could absolutely smash most things in a straight dice-off. But Brutes still move 4", without leaning on multiple rules for lots of extra movement, and they all still just straight fight - no fighting first, no forcing fighting last, no double fight, no fight on death, no returning models, no range, etc. 

I think this book - heavily with Warchanters but also with expanded Allegiance Abilities - will move Ironjawz up the power level. But, imo, while they now have the tools to probably make a consistent 4-1 army, they lack the tools that can abuse and suffocate meta in the way that pre-point-change DoK, release FEC, and current Slaanesh do. There's a difference in "statline" power and "game affecting" power.

[Scurvydog]

49 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Damage output on a unit is by and far not the thing that makes things overpowered. Mobility, ability interaction, enemy denial, and being able to ignore particular game rules is what makes certain armies and units strong.

Ironjawz were already able to outpunch most armies in the game. Brutes and Mawkrushas could absolutely smash most things in a straight dice-off. But Brutes still move 4", without leaning on multiple rules for lots of extra movement, and they all still just straight fight - no fighting first, no forcing fighting last, no double fight, no fight on death, no returning models, no range, etc. 

I think this book - heavily with Warchanters but also with expanded Allegiance Abilities - will move Ironjawz up the power level. But, imo, while they now have the tools to probably make a consistent 4-1 army, they lack the tools that can abuse and suffocate meta in the way that pre-point-change DoK, release FEC, and current Slaanesh do. There's a difference in "statline" power and "game affecting" power.

Yes this is my thoughts as well. I will agree that a single Hero doing all that warchanters is doing right now IS overpowered in a vacuum, but the army itself is so lacking, this single character is the batman of the justice league.

This army will stomp on a lot of armies by brute force, by just throwing damage and dice at them, for example  Beastclaw raiders, beasts of chaos, std or even a melee focued stormcast army, will just get squished in most cases. It will not be fun for anyone involved. At least a book like DoK who can handily beat the same armies with no effort, has some width in the book to not take Hag nar, to maybe run with warlocks and snakes. 

Is Orruks better to play than before? probably, but that is not saying much, the problems have just been moved from Whaagh CP bombing to Warchanters and some will hate your army for just being a beatstick, while the same other group of players will stomp you still. I know that sounds like doom and gloom and it probably exaggerated somewhat, but unfortunately few Ironjawz games have been fun for me or my opponent and I simply hoped the new book would help with that some more.

[TALegion]

What are people's thoughts on a Foot of Gork-spamming Wurrgog Prophet general in a Big Waaagh list? Taking the right command ability and artefact, you get +2 to cast (+3 if there's an enemy monster with 24") and +1 to unbind, both of which can be buffed by +2 for d6 Waaagh points. If you do that, it's a 6+ (5+ with a monster) for the big Foot of Gork with a low chance to get unbound.

I think that's a hilarious amount of damage, period. Plus, you get the added versatility of having really powerful unbinding rolls (+3 for d6 Waagh points) for yourself, if needed. Is this a real option?
 

19 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Yes this is my thoughts as well. I will agree that a single Hero doing all that warchanters is doing right now IS overpowered in a vacuum, but the army itself is so lacking, this single character is the batman of the justice league.

This army will stomp on a lot of armies by brute force, by just throwing damage and dice at them, for example  Beastclaw raiders, beasts of chaos, std or even a melee focued stormcast army, will just get squished in most cases. It will not be fun for anyone involved. At least a book like DoK who can handily beat the same armies with no effort, has some width in the book to not take Hag nar, to maybe run with warlocks and snakes. 

Is Orruks better to play than before? probably, but that is not saying much, the problems have just been moved from Whaagh CP bombing to Warchanters and some will hate your army for just being a beatstick, while the same other group of players will stomp you still. I know that sounds like doom and gloom and it probably exaggerated somewhat, but unfortunately few Ironjawz games have been fun for me or my opponent and I simply hoped the new book would help with that some more.

Does anyone have any predictions for what armies will be able to beat IJ consistently? I'm very unfamiliar with what high-level, competitive metas look like.

From my perspective, a Mawcrusha (with Destroyer and Mean 'Un) plus a unit of buffed-up Ardboyz (+1 damage, +1 hit, possibly with +1/2 attacks) could both realistically wipe entire units in a single round of fighting. These, in turn, chain into each other with Smashin n Bashin. On that note alone, I have to wonder what armies can survive after having 2 full units removed before they get a chance to hit back. Of course, the answer is "don't let IJ charge you," but that may be easier said than done.

Again, I have no real experience in competitive play.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

think this book - heavily with Warchanters but also with expanded Allegiance Abilities - will move Ironjawz up the power level. But, imo, while they now have the tools to probably make a consistent 4-1 army, they lack the tools that can abuse and suffocate meta in the way that pre-point-change DoK, release FEC, and current Slaanesh do. There's a difference in "statline" power and "game affecting" power.

Uh we had a consistent 4-1 list in the previous book.

If the warclans book hadn't come out till next year I'm pretty sure I'd have started 5-0 tournaments because it ruined everything I faced as long as i didn't let the pressure get to me. I was the only person at tournaments hoping I could face slaanesh because IMO the list had a positive or even matchup vs them.

It's one of the reasons I was so negative to start with. We've gone from having one of the strongest lists in the game to what looks like a budget khorne list.

[Malakree]

8 minutes ago, TALegion said:

Does anyone have any predictions for what armies will be able to beat IJ consistently? I'm very unfamiliar with what high-level, competitive metas look like.

Uh...I don't think we can beat slaanesh anymore.

Fyreslayers is going to ruin us.

I feel like we will struggle against LoN.

I'm not sure about khorne, biggest issue is that they are now more mobile than us and we don't have the WAAAGH! Stacked brute boss to erase bloodthirsters anymore.

Honestly the biggest loss is the 1 drop with armywide 3d6+2 charge + ironfist alphastrike potential.

Your opponent having to be aware you could alphastrike the hell out of them was so crucial.

On the other side we gained the Ironsunz CA which is quite possibly the strongest CA in the entire game atm.

[Skumbaagh]

Malakree I played your gordrakktoof this last weekend and it was such a blast! I went 3-2 with loses against legion of greef and slaanesh. Only the slaanesh game felt really uneven. The only thing I regret is that I went the ardboy way with playing 60-70 ardboys since ghb19 when I could have played this mega fun list! Gordrakk, Mbmk, 2*10 ard boys, 2*3 pigs and 5 brutes.

Anyways, the fear of gordrakks threat range was real! The changehost deployed so far back that he couldn't come back at me on points. It was a great win with most of my stuff blown up! The match against a stormcast heavy casting list was the easiest game ever. That player normalt goes 4-1 but in this game with the list he was playing he turtled up with his sequitors on terrain waiting all game for me to come at him. Which I never did. Blew him up when he realized he had to go for the objectives with all he had. I activated the bomb and moved gordrakk and the maw krusha forward some 24 inch from way back were they locked the table from airdrops and kept out of harms way. 

With the above I want to highlight soft values such as fear of what you can do (supercharges or unbindable teleport for example) and the mistakes that comes with. The flexibility that comes with insane movement is huge, one may think moving 24 inch is not necessary but finding those mistakes and making a 40 inch move to stomp a lone character and capturing an objective is really satisfying while tipping the scale. 

I totally agree that we (ironjawz) are not in much of a better place than before. We didn't really get the much need tools for fighting the cheese. It will be more fun to play thou, with more tools to lean on. I will aim for making the 4-1. It will be much up to matchups thou. And I don't really want to mix in with the Bonesplitterz, then I could as well get myself a another army instead. 

[Malakree]

4 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:

Malakree I played your gordrakktoof this last weekend and it was such a blast! I went 3-2 with loses against legion of greef and slaanesh. Only the slaanesh game felt really uneven. The only thing I regret is that I went the ardboy way with playing 60-70 ardboys since ghb19 when I could have played this mega fun list! Gordrakk, Mbmk, 2*10 ard boys, 2*3 pigs and 5 brutes.

Anyways, the fear of gordrakks threat range was real! The changehost deployed so far back that he couldn't come back at me on points. It was a great win with most of my stuff blown up! The match against a stormcast heavy casting list was the easiest game ever. That player normalt goes 4-1 but in this game with the list he was playing he turtled up with his sequitors on terrain waiting all game for me to come at him. Which I never did. Blew him up when he realized he had to go for the objectives with all he had. I activated the bomb and moved gordrakk and the maw krusha forward some 24 inch from way back were they locked the table from airdrops and kept out of harms way. 

With the above I want to highlight soft values such as fear of what you can do (supercharges or unbindable teleport for example) and the mistakes that comes with. The flexibility that comes with insane movement is huge, one may think moving 24 inch is not necessary but finding those mistakes and making a 40 inch move to stomp a lone character and capturing an objective is really satisfying while tipping the scale. 

I totally agree that we (ironjawz) are not in much of a better place than before. We didn't really get the much need tools for fighting the cheese. It will be more fun to play thou, with more tools to lean on. I will aim for making the 4-1. It will be much up to matchups thou. And I don't really want to mix in with the Bonesplitterz, then I could as well get myself a another army instead. 

Aye I was really enjoying it, the threat range was what was so key for me. It lets you dictate the game while your opponent needs to react. One tiny mistake from your opponent and you can capitalise which allows you to pressure them into MAKING that mistake. Being able to dictate the flow of the battle without actually engaging is so key for an army like IJ.

Atm I see several different potential avenues with the new book. Will need a ton of first hand experience though which sadly means the next few tournaments will be experimentation rather than placing. Was nice know I could go 4-1 even while throwing a game 😅😁😂

[PlasticCraic]

5 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

This however is there with no counter-play to it. Try to deny that buff (which you also had no suggestion to in your answer).

1) Take the Warchanters off at range.  Jezzails, Warp Lightening Cannons, Arrow Boys, KO, Tzeentch, teleporting COS gunlines, Shootcast, Endless Spells lists in general will all get rid of a couple of 6-wound models quick smart.

2) Screening.  If you have to engage with my 10-wound chaff, I have denied you 30 of your 40 damage output.

3) Always Strikes First / Always Fights Last.  They can do 1,000,000 damage per swing, but if they never get to roll a dice, you have denied them all of it.

4) Make their output worthless by summoning back whatever they kill.  Especially effective for a summoning army with 25mm bases, including any Slaanesh army played competently, but also LOG for example.

5) Outdrop them and kill the combat units before they are buffed up, so they have nothing worthwhile to buff.  IJ are a low body-count army after the points hikes.

6) Take a hyper-durable army, especially one with after-saves.  They will take the punch and hit back, IJ tend to lose a grind.  Deny the damage output with saves after saves.

Hope that helps.

[JackStreicher]

18 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

1) Take the Warchanters off at range.  Jezzails, Warp Lightening Cannons, Arrow Boys, KO, Tzeentch, teleporting COS gunlines, Shootcast, Endless Spells lists in general will all get rid of a couple of 6-wound models quick smart.

2) Screening.  If you have to engage with my 10-wound chaff, I have denied you 30 of your 40 damage output.

3) Always Strikes First / Always Fights Last.  They can do 1,000,000 damage per swing, but if they never get to roll a dice, you have denied them all of it.

4) Make their output worthless by summoning back whatever they kill.  Especially effective for a summoning army with 25mm bases, including any Slaanesh army played competently, but also LOG for example.

5) Outdrop them and kill the combat units before they are buffed up, so they have nothing worthwhile to buff.  IJ are a low body-count army after the points hikes.

6) Take a hyper-durable army, especially one with after-saves.  They will take the punch and hit back, IJ tend to lose a grind.  Deny the damage output with saves after saves.

Hope that helps.

It doesn‘t since no point is valid at all.

(everything in caps symbolizes obvious conclusions, which were accentuated even further)

 “Shoot them“ is NEVER a valid argument since not every (even major) faction has access to good enough shooting.

 Screening? So they send two units in and after the first one annihalated the screen the second one piles in to annihalate the second unit.

 Aff is of no help because you won‘t do enough dmg due to their tankiness  and 3-4 wounds a model. Also most armies have no access to aff

most armies can‘t summon and even summoning is pretty hard when you‘re dead by turn 2 and the hole board is swarmed by ardboyz.

YOU CANNOT KILL THEM BEFORE THEY ARE BUFFED, they are buffed from the start.

hyper durable? Negated  by 2 dmg attacks across all units.

——

summed up: Take a super specialized List of a specific army SO YOU HAVE A CHANCE OF WINNING.

Perhaps you might even realize that that is ridiculous „buy a specific army and specialize it otherwise you‘ll lose“ as only way to beat a random list using 3 warchanters 👏🏼

Edited October 1, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Kasper]

17 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

It doesn‘t since no point is valid at all.

(everything in caps symbolizes obvious conclusions, which were accentuated even further)

 “Shoot them“ is NEVER a valid argument since not every (even major) faction has access to good enough shooting.

 Screening? So they send two units in and after the first one annihalated the screen the second one piles in to annihalate the second unit.

 Aff is of no help because you won‘t do enough dmg due to their tankiness  and 3-4 wounds a model. Also most armies have no access to aff

most armies can‘t summon and even summoning is pretty hard when you‘re dead by turn 2 and the hole board is swarmed by ardboyz.

YOU CANNOT KILL THEM BEFORE THEY ARE BUFFED, they are buffed from the start.

hyper durable? Negated  by 2 dmg attacks across all units.

——

summed up: Take a super specialized List of a specific army SO YOU HAVE A CHANCE OF WINNING.

Perhaps you might even realize that that is ridiculous „buy a specific army and specialize it otherwise you‘ll lose“ as only way to beat a random list using 3 warchanters 👏🏼

What agenda is it you are trying to push? A couple pages back you were crying at the thought of Bonesplitterz ignoring Nighthaunt Ethereal despite only 2 units in the entire book having a rend. Now you are complaining about Ironjawz having Warchanters. The book isn't even out yet. Jesus christ man, really? You are basing everything off one battle rep.

Edited October 1, 2019 by Kasper

[Requizen]

7 minutes ago, Kasper said:

What agenda is it you are trying to push? A couple pages back you were crying at the thought of Bonesplitterz ignoring Nighthaunt Ethereal despite only 2 units in the entire book having a rend. Now you are complaining about Ironjawz having Warchanters. The book isn't even out yet. Jesus christ man, really?

Some people just enjoy being mad  

Personally, I'm wondering if there's any real reason to go non-Clan Bonesplitterz, since the bonuses for the subfactions are all just really solid and there are few real downsides. It's not like Stormcast where you miss out on Staunch Defenders and have to take crappy artifacts, all the ones given are pretty good and there doesn't seem to be a "can't miss" trait.

[Lanoss]

Well I like the changes 😁

I do wish the Gore Choppa and Boss Klaw had -2 rend and the Megaboss on foot have more versatility to take alongside a MBMK. And perhaps more tempting Clans...

But overall quite happy with the book. Yes Warchanters will be the bane of most opponents. But it keeps IJs on tier 

Im a happy little Ironjaw