The weird state of AoS Forgeworld

[Dead Scribe]

I would just say if someone doesn't want to deal with the premium pricing and difficult material of FW minis that they simply... not buy them?   I don't understand why that would curtail into a desire to ****** over the people that enjoy those things by removing them completely.

[Eevika]

1 hour ago, Wraith01 said:

I'd rather AoS stay with just the plastic mini's.

Forgeworld is a premium product and pretty much never necessary it allows exploration of things outside of GWs main line of minis for those interested. I see literally no downsides to it

[novakai]

10 hours ago, Eevika said:

I mean yeah it was created just this week but Fimir had the chance to be repointed 2 weeks ago and you bet GW knew Troggoths were dropping too. Now its a year of waiting for a maybe drop on fimir or its just completely forgotten and they never change

TBF they did the point change for the GHB before the Gitz book came out, so GW may not have know that troggoth where going to get cheaper 7 months down the line

granted I wish the main rule writing team did another Forgeworld rule update soon, should at least finish what the old AoS FW team was going to do and allow the monster arcanum monster be playable in certain armies. Right now we don’t even know if that initial idea was scrapped TBH

[Fuchur]

Hi everybody,

sorry for bringing up such an old thread, but I was asking myself about the future of AoS  @ Forgeworld  and I`d like to know what you think regarding this.

I think there are four possibilities  how the situation could develop in the long term:

 

1) GW will bring out a book smilar to the compendium in 40k => Unlikely in my opinion, would be a very thin book

2) GW will put the remaining "big" models in future battletomes => Also unlikely, but would be my favorite solution.  

3) Support will slowly expire and all rules will be moved to legends => Due to the lack of support in the last years I fear this could be how it will happen in the end

4) Support goes on with 1 or 2 releases every few years 

Sorry for being a bit negative on this, but have there been any statement or news in the last months that I missed?  As far as I know the last releases were the Stormcast heads and 1 or 2 years later a lot of models have been discontinued. Do you guys have any information and/or ideas what will happen with AoS Forgeworld?

 

[stratigo]

Forgeworld prime (as opposed to the  specialists under it) still seems to be in a state of chaos to me.

[El Syf]

Also Forge World would most likely be handling The Old World when that turns up? Can't see AoS being catered for really. 

[Overread]

GW and FW don't seem to know what to do with FW. I think its a mixture of FW doing the speciailst games which took off in a big way and sapped a lot of their time, but also some political/internal stuff going on with GW likely with resource allocation and such. It would explain why some of FW's display models appear to get a lower standard of painting from time to time as well as why some things get previewed and then vanish. 

40K appeares to have sort of settled for the moment; whilst AoS lost a bunch of stuff at the start of the year; oddly they lost of lot of really great sculpts that were more than up to date in terms of quality. So its very hard ot guess what FW is going to do for AoS. They did form a team at one stage, but it disbanded soon after only producing the stormcast alternate heads. 

 

All I can say is if you want it tell FW in polite emails; ask for old stuff to come back (warpfire dragon; magma dragon, wolf rats and more); write great reviews of what you do own; show it off and encourage others to buy them. In the end money talks louder than hopes. 

[Popisdead]

I've been back in the 40k hobby since before 4th ed.  I have a decent collection of FW ork stuff which has only recently been deemed okay for a couple things.  The biker WArboss maintains his usability and the Meka/Megadreads can be okay.  The Grot tanks are best proxied as something else.

In general, think of FW as a millionaire's luxury hobby.  We already spend enough from GW as a luxury and unless you think something is amazing and worth it  you'll rarely have something pay off well in game and not long term.  

 

A greater Daemon is a good purchase, as could be a few other things.  

 

But the extra stuff (even chaos dwarfs) mostly is delegated to "probably doesn't work, has rules writing issues, just junk, or totally OP and a mad rush on them".  

 

Think of all those FW Heresy era space marine armies or add ons that 40k is moving away from as they re-invent the marine line.  

[RuneBrush]

+++ MOD HAT+++

Just a gentle reminder that we try not to revive old threads on TGA.  Much better to simply spin up a new one because a lot can happen in a year 😊

[RuneBrush]

Putting that hat aside as we've had a few posts, FW are currently in a bit of a state of flux as it stands.  We've had a number of big changes occur over the past few years.  First is that FW no longer write the rules for 40k or AoS, the relevant design teams are now responsible for these.  This is why we've seen warscroll changes for FW miniatures being done at the same time as battletomes come out and there's a question mark over some long anticipated books like Fires of Cyraxus.

FW appears to be moving more towards an  overarching "brand" than a specific department.  The Specialist Games team headed up by Andy Hoare is part of Forge World and have been responsible for Blood Bowl, Aeronautica, The Old World & Necromunda.  Age of Darkness (i.e. the 7.5 Heresy Rules) still falls under the umbrella of Forge World along with The Hobbit SBG.  Titanicus I can't quite recall - I believe it's under FW but led by Andy, but it could be Specialist Games but calling on some of the Age of Darkness team.  Structure wise each game system has a team of 2 or 3 staff with it's own sculptors (though they do sometimes jump into other game systems depending on demand).

So, FW no longer have any staff specifically for AoS or 40k.  40k products will have been designed for Age of Darkness and ported over by the main design team.  We may get this when The Old World arrives, time will tell - I do know that the GW design teams do not know what FW is working on (and visa-versa).

Going forward I foresee FW basically being production of resin miniatures with everything else being done by Specialist Games.  We're unlikely to see random Chaos Dragons being created because somebody fancied designing one (unless it was done during lockdown by a sculptor who was bored).  I do think popular miniatures will continue to be produced though, the Rogue Idol and Troggoth Hag are pretty popular - although if I were really plucking things out the sky I could see plastic versions being created as the future.

I'd also be bold and say that I think that GW plastic kits are so good now that the demand for FW to produce alternative versions of models  for AoS & 40k has largely vanished.

 

Disclaimer: This is all information that I've found out, been told, gleaned or in cases guessed from both things online and speaking to staff at open days/events.  This is now coming up a year old due to the last event being the New Year Open Day.  So it's entirely possible that many things have changed - or in cases I picked up the wrong end of the stick.

[SunStorm]

26 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I'd also be bold and say that I think that GW plastic kits are so good now that the demand for FW to produce alternative versions of models  for AoS & 40k has largely vanished.

 

I think that is a good point, the current plastic kits are really impressive and the size of kits they can now do, reduces the need for the larger FW monsters/vehicles.

I've been a big supporter of FW over the years, buying at least 3 different 30k era armies over the years, a titan, a chaos dwarf force and various other bits and pieces as well as going to the open days and events they held. My own personal view is that golden age of FW is over although you could argue that the new specialist games success is leading to a new golden age. 

Ofcourse losing Alan Bligh didn't help, he was such a big part of the driving force behind the Horus Heresy series and before that the Badab books and Tamurkhan campaign, both of which still stand up today in terms of narrative campaign gaming. 

[Overread]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

I'd also be bold and say that I think that GW plastic kits are so good now that the demand for FW to produce alternative versions of models  for AoS & 40k has largely vanished.

My one problem with this is that I don't think GW actually does the right things to promote FW models.

 

Take AoS - we lost a bunch of models at the start of the year. Most were "monsters" in destruction - the grand alliance that has had the least amount of attention over the year and thus likely a huge dip in sales. We didn't loose the Gloompsite Gitz models though, however I do distinctly recall GW marketing them in multiple Gitz articles when the army got released. It stood out to me because when they did other armies, like Skaven and Chaos, their FW counterparts didn't get marketed. Heck I recall a community article on FB that specifically talked about Exalted Greater Demons and referenced the plastic not the resin kit. 

So I think one part of the reduced demand is that GW isn't actually pushing the FW models in a fair way compared to the main studio. Old Rules that haven't been updated; lots of models in a less supported selection of armies; no actual marketing on the community pages etc...

 

Coupled to that there was the utter disaster of overseas prices rising on FW models overnight which I think hit the overseas market hard and pushed them very heavily toward recasters. GW made a lot of noise about making FW ordering cheaper on shipping; then in the same breath jumped all the prices on the models up. A lot of people waited for the cheaper shipping only to see what they wanted leap in price well beyond what they'd budgeted - the result was a lot of very angry overseas customers who I think just stopped order FW models. If GW had been up front they'd have at least seen a surge in sales before; but they didn't and I think it resulted in a huge dip.

 

It's acts like that that make me think there is some political bias against FW within GW somewhere. Some inter-departmental competition for resources/staff/money etc... and FW tends to fall short more than not. Specialist games have been a massive win for them, yet even there we still see plenty getting questionable/lower than normal GW painting quality. GW's painting has over the years become fairly upper average in quality - not the high flying top that you might see on Infinity models, but a very capable and good solid quality all the same. FW tends to get very muddy/messy from time to time. I'm all for training within and moving staff up, but FW seems to be the one that pulls the short straw. 

 

 

 

Personally even with the main studio able to make big plastic kits; I'd still think resin from FW would have value. In theory they should be doing what they are with the specialist games for the main games. Making random monsters; making upgrade and expansion kits. Making things like female alternate sculpts and such. Basically do with FW what the 3rd party market already does. GW has been pretty hot on attacking the game brands that grew from the old specialist games (eg the bloodbowl alt that grew); targeting optional and upgrade parts should be a second step for them in that campaign to get more "in house" under their belt. 

[Fuchur]

Quote

I'd also be bold and say that I think that GW plastic kits are so good now that the demand for FW to produce alternative versions of models  for AoS & 40k has largely vanished.

Regarding AoS I think this is the direction  in which it is developing, yes. If we look at the current FW AoS range compared  to the big GW platic kits (Mega Gargant) we have :

"oversize/overprice" compared to plastic range:

- Vorgaroth & Skalok

- Dread Saurian

- Exalted Bloodthirster

- Exalted LoC

- Maybe Skaarac

 

"could be used as alternate models for existing GW units":

- Exalted KoS => regular KoS

- Exalted GUO => regular GUO

- Warpgnaw Verminlord => other kind of Verminlord

- Bonegrinder Gargant => Mega Gargant

- Khorne Prince + Herald

- Nurgle Prince + Herald

- Night Goblin Command

- Stormcast Heads

 

"no comparable plastic model, but would fit regarding size and price":

- Rogue  Idol

-Mourngul

- Squig Gobba

- Colossal Squig

- Troggoth Hag

- Plague Toads/Poxriders

- Mazarall The Butcher

- Legion of Azgorh

When I see this, there are only 4-5 kits left which are really bigger/more expensive than the big plastic kits we already have with only two kits (Vorgaroth/Skalok and Dread Saurian) being really "supersize". So yes, it looks like the time for FW as being the company with the "big kits" could be over.  I think with 40k the things look a litte different with all the titan stuff etc..

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

From a consumer's point of view, I don't really see what value Forgeworld's involvement in AoS adds. At least for me personally.

Historically FW has produced premium models that would be too expensive for the average GW customer. That would mean that as an average GW customer, I should prefer their models not to be to good in the game, since that would create a pay to win situation, where people who are willing to spend extra money have an advantage in game. But if those models don't receive good rules, it becomes very hard to argue they are valuable. If I just want a model to paint and display, but not to play with, I could just go to any 3rd party model company out there. Buying from a semi-integrated second party like Forgeworld would have no advantage.

If Forgeworld wants to get a way from being a supplier of premium models and move toward staples that get properly balanced rules and reasonable price points (such as the Troggoth Hag or Mourngul), it's even hard to justify why they should not just be integrated into GW proper, and their manpower and production capability be put to use to just produce regular models for AoS. Maybe this is not possible due to how the two companies are set up. But it would probably be preferable for me as a consumer.

The last refuge of Forgeworld I can see are upgrade kits and alternate sculpts. I think alternate sculpts of centerpiece models would be the area where having a second party premium model company makes most sense. You'd be able to get more model variety for those who want it, but nobody would be forced to pay premium prices since there would be a regular GW sculpt available for each model. Upgrade kits are fine, too, but there seems to be little reason to have them produced by Forgeworld instead of GW proper. We know GW can do this: They are doing it with the upgrade kit for Legions of Nagash.  I guess at first glance having a source of alternate heads and weapons that does not violate GW's 3rd party bits policies might be attractive, but really that's a case of a company manufacturing a problem and then selling a solution to it.

As it stand, I think it would be preferable to have all models with unique rules properly under control of GW proper. I don't see the value of what is basically a licensed 3rd party company making their own models that may or may not get proper support in the future.

Oh, and of course FW handling specialty games is completely fine. That's probably the best way to get smaller, more niche games made without taking away time from the 40k and AoS teams.

[Overread]

I'd just like to point out that big isn't all FW has done. They actually have a lot of things which aren't big. 

Resin still achieves a higher level of overall detail than plastic can achieve. Plus FW existing can allow them to indeed produce alternative sculpts. The whole "FW is big" kind of died a long long time ago. Sure they've sitll got big stuff but its about more than just size

[RuneBrush]

2 hours ago, Overread said:

My one problem with this is that I don't think GW actually does the right things to promote FW models.

You're right, but this has always been intentional because GW has never had the manufacturing facilities to handle the demand if they did promote FW models the same as the main range.  Let's be honest, they on occasion struggle to keep up the demand for Heresy miniatures which is a significantly more niche game.  It was an issue they were very aware of and solved it by pulling all AoS and 40k items into the main studio out of FW.

I do think there was a huge amount of scope for some amazing one-off AoS models, but by not doing them they've been able to produce some stunning resin miniatures for games like Necromunda & Titanicus which actually suits the more detailed precise sculpts you get from resin.

 

50 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

From a consumer's point of view, I don't really see what value Forgeworld's involvement in AoS adds. At least for me personally.

I think you're making a good point here and not on your own either.

[Overread]

That's very true FW isn't made for mass market, but at the same time if sales are getting so low that they are dropping more and more models and cutting investment because its not making enough sales to make a return - then surely that's showing that their marketing strategy isn't working. I think it doesn't help that over the last 5 years AoS has had so few actual releases that GW hasn't had any casual FW models to even market. A few alternative heads and a huge khorne dragon isn't much. One is an upgrade pack for one race; the other is a very expensive model that's very niche by price alone. 

I still get the feeling that GW could do more for FW itself, that FW has a purpose and a place in the system. 

That said I do agree that the Necromunda and AT models are awesome. If anything I'd love that to result in yet more money funnelled into FW to grow it; to allow them the chance to do one-off AoS models and beasties and such. High detail still works for fantasy - heck if GW ever updates Cities of Sigmar to steam punk styles then all those rivets and bolts and such would be a fieldday for FW resin to achieve.* 

 

*Then again if GW used Dropfleet/Zone style plastic they could achieve those tiny details. Though I'd note that plastic is much harder than GWs and actually can be a bit more tricky to work with - though a BIG part of that is the designer putting LOTS of tiny ridges on the darn join lines on the model. 

[Charleston]

I somehow belive that GW wants FW to be unattractive. They could have moved a lot of stuff from main-gw into fw-area, but they never did. FW could be a company centered around Specialist Games or Resin Casting. They could expand and improve their process, maybe using 3D Prints for a Made-to-Order service. But instead it remained the "Luxury model line" that became more and more unattractive due to quality beeing contested by other shops/china, rules design and publication beeing a mess and so on.

There is lot of wasted potential on FW products. But meanwhile I also belive they don´t want to move necessary ressources from GW to FW as they don´t want a decrease in GW´s value. So they accept FW stagnation as they avoid investment.

[zilberfrid]

GW does actively market the FW Blood Bowl and Necromunda stuff, they come up often in articles and are depicted in rulebooks.

For AoS, I suspect they're going to plastic or exclusion in the long run, and when a mold wears out or breaks, an offering is gone. Don't expect an announcement of that either.

[Noserenda]

I think the main problem with FW these days is that its the last bastion of "old gw" thought being run by a dinosaur. Its apparently been in the middle of "big changes" for a year or more but not much has really changed on the surface, if anything its gone backwards more than GW over lockdown! Its still an opaque box that burps out products and bad decisions in equal measure, then goes on savage purges of slow selling lines without warning.

I used to be a huge FW fan but these days... I cant understand people who still are.

[Overread]

I should point out that at least the last two editions of rules for AoS and the latest edition for 40K are all MAIN STUDIO designed rules and stats. FW hasn't done them, its the same team doing core rules. Any issue with rules are thus at the hands of GW itself not FW. 

[Popisdead]

7 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

I'd also be bold and say that I think that GW plastic kits are so good now that the demand for FW to produce alternative versions of models  for AoS & 40k has largely vanished.

Many are indeed yes.  I also understand FW to be where the resin Finecast is made.

6 hours ago, Overread said:

My one problem with this is that I don't think GW actually does the right things to promote FW models.

They have the Chaos Dwarf line which could be better supported.  

5 hours ago, Overread said:

I'd just like to point out that big isn't all FW has done. They actually have a lot of things which aren't big. 

Resin still achieves a higher level of overall detail than plastic can achieve. Plus FW existing can allow them to indeed produce alternative sculpts. The whole "FW is big" kind of died a long long time ago. Sure they've sitll got big stuff but its about more than just size

The Space marine shoulder pads, rhino doors and HH models aren't big and huge sellers.  A local guy (dr so he has pocket money) has a Krieg army and wanted to build an Empire army but 8th was prohibitive and in AoS he's now painting and using his FW empire with CoS rules quite nicely.  

2 hours ago, Charleston said:

I somehow belive that GW wants FW to be unattractive. They could have moved a lot of stuff from main-gw into fw-area, but they never did. FW could be a company centered around Specialist Games or Resin Casting. They could expand and improve their process, maybe using 3D Prints for a Made-to-Order service. But instead it remained the "Luxury model line" that became more and more unattractive due to quality beeing contested by other shops/china, rules design and publication beeing a mess and so on.

There is lot of wasted potential on FW products. But meanwhile I also belive they don´t want to move necessary ressources from GW to FW as they don´t want a decrease in GW´s value. So they accept FW stagnation as they avoid investment.

Historically FW has been the saving grace for GW.  While under Kirby, especially when the main games were being strangled by bad mgt, FW still sold like crazy as did BL.  I'm not certain GW is willing to remove a viable cash flow willy nilly.  It may not be the main focus for their two biggest games but FW still holds value, especially BB, and other games.  

The biggest issue historically I've had with FW is they ship defective product for high cost with poor customer service.  And now with recasters it makes group-orders harder as the original purchaser (maybe your friend ordered for you and him) and if you live in NA contacting them is difficult.  FW wants to avoid providing replacements for products you bought from some eastern caster.  You get something, it maybe has the correct parts, (i have had duplicates of the same side of a vehicle and one component was broken), parts require a lot of work, clean up, and then there may be casting issues like severely warped or bent, or miscasts.  

I feel they got themselves into the same situation as with books.  GW made it so hard for cheap and accessible rules for books people just steal PDFs.  Now people are just buying from recasters as it's significantly cheaper and who cares if the recaster makes a shoddy product, the original is also and people are starting to 3D print their own counts-as.  I saw some guy doing a bat rep with maybe a dozen 3D printed Chinorks that were terrible but it went up on youtube.  <eyes roll>.  

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

I've only been in the hobby for about 5 years and for the first 3 of that could only afford an army if it was mostly second hand so my interactions with forgeworld product is purely through being on the other side of the table from them. AoS is my primary game and being an HoS and OBR player FW literally has nothing of value for me. On the flip side I do play 40k every once in a while and have an emperors children army and always wanted a couple of contemptor dreads and the HH Fulgrim and Eidolon (not because I'd ever get into HH that's like a house downpayment's worth of resin to do so but I just want the Fulgrim and Eidolon would be a great smash lord). Now between death guard and thousand sons losing access to a lot of FW stuff it doesn't instill confidence in me that the dreads would be a worthwhile investment if I ever get a proper codex and follows that trend. 

Being in Canada doesn't help, for the price of a contemptor dread I got Katakros instead... a 500pt centrepiece model for the same cost as a 200~pt elite unit. Recasters have always been an option but as a tournament organizer it's always felt like a gross option. I know like 70% of the FW and even some of the bigger kits like baneblades at my flgs are recasts and 3D prints but that's mostly amongst the 40k group. Maybe it's just because I'm on the younger end of the age spectrum for GW customers and never experienced the hay day of FW but I've only ever known them as an overpriced secondary company to GW that only makes a few interesting models compared to modern GW with a resin quality gap quickly being closed by cheaper, less than legal means.

[RuneBrush]

16 hours ago, Noserenda said:

I think the main problem with FW these days is that its the last bastion of "old gw" thought being run by a dinosaur. Its apparently been in the middle of "big changes" for a year or more but not much has really changed on the surface

Not sure if you read my post.  All bar a couple of game systems are designed by the Specialist Games team run by Andy Hoare, it appears a deliberate move away from the old set up, which has received various amounts of bad press over the past few years (which is something we will not be discussing on here).

The last year has seen the world stuck in a pandemic with many GW staff being furloughed for at least 4 months of it (many staff are still not back in the office 9 months on), so it shouldn't really be any surprise that there haven't been any big changes.  It's also very rare that organisational changes ever really get published either, we find out about them through "contacts" or speaking to the staff at events - which aren't happening due to the current climate.

One thing I will also point out is that the various design teams (FW, SG, AoS, 40k etc) have zero involvement in deciding what models to put onto last chance to buy - which is why we've seen rules for models being produced and within a month those models no longer being sold.

TL:DR FW as an entity does have a bit of bad rep in some circles, however let's not slate them for decisions that came from the business side of GW.

14 hours ago, Popisdead said:

Many are indeed yes.  I also understand FW to be where the resin Finecast is made.

Unless something has changed, FW had nothing to do with Finecast.  I did hear a rumour that they may have some involvement in some of the newer miniatures (for example the resin Black Library miniatures), but they don't appear to be the same Finecast as other miniatures.

[SunStorm]

2 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Unless something has changed, FW had nothing to do with Finecast.  I did hear a rumour that they may have some involvement in some of the newer miniatures (for example the resin Black Library miniatures), but they don't appear to be the same Finecast as other miniatures.

Yeah, while the quality of resin from FW does vary, it has always been different to any Finecast stuff I've had.