The weird state of AoS Forgeworld

[Dead Scribe]

GW managers allow FW at their own discretion.  If your GW manager is mostly a car salesman type person, this is often the route they go.  Their store is their catalog.  They don't want models in their store that they don't sell because someone sees a cool model and goes to buy it but they cannot.  So they go online to get it instead.

Our GW manager did not allow any FW or any older models that were no longer part of the catalog.  He also restricted your table time to an hour max.  Which is why no one plays at our GW store.  I don't use FW simply because most of the FW catalog is weak rules-wise and not every event lets you use them so they aren't really standard.

[Overread]

1 minute ago, Dead Scribe said:

Our GW manager did not allow any FW or any older models that were no longer part of the catalog.  He also restricted your table time to an hour max.  Which is why no one plays at our GW store.  I don't use FW simply because most of the FW catalog is weak rules-wise and not every event lets you use them so they aren't really standard.

I can never understand how a comapny who can employ generally fantastic and enthusiastic staff for their UK stores can utterly fail with their overseas stores. I can only assume that something in the hiring and management system is broken or just full of people who trained at a department store and don't realise that a hobby store is an entirely different beast.

1 hour gaming limits? Freaking heck you can hardly guarantee even the smaller games always fitting into that time slot and that means no 40K nor AoS games being played ever (at least beyond 500 points or so)

[Luck-a]

1 minute ago, Dead Scribe said:

GW managers allow FW at their own discretion.  If your GW manager is mostly a car salesman type person, this is often the route they go.  Their store is their catalog.  They don't want models in their store that they don't sell because someone sees a cool model and goes to buy it but they cannot.  So they go online to get it instead.

Our GW manager did not allow any FW or any older models that were no longer part of the catalog.  He also restricted your table time to an hour max.  Which is why no one plays at our GW store.  I don't use FW simply because most of the FW catalog is weak rules-wise and not every event lets you use them so they aren't really standard.

Wow, an hour max, that is really very discouraging. See for me I can understand not allowing FW in stores under that premise, ie. little jimmy walks into the store, goes 'wow cool I want that!' and then finds out he can't...but it just means I am not likely to buy a bunch of cool and expensive models from GW, which to me seems a bit of a waste of all those cool sculpts. Like you said, FW lacks proper rules and proper support. I would assume if they had that FW would likely sell much better, but who am I to judge aye?

[Eevika]

9 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

GW managers allow FW at their own discretion.  If your GW manager is mostly a car salesman type person, this is often the route they go.  Their store is their catalog.  They don't want models in their store that they don't sell because someone sees a cool model and goes to buy it but they cannot.  So they go online to get it instead.

Our GW manager did not allow any FW or any older models that were no longer part of the catalog.  He also restricted your table time to an hour max.  Which is why no one plays at our GW store.  I don't use FW simply because most of the FW catalog is weak rules-wise and not every event lets you use them so they aren't really standard.

I play with forgeworld and oop models and my GW store just thinks thats cool. Im glad we have such a nice store here in Finland 

[Infernalslayer]

Just make Forgeworld give me back the Chaos War Mammoth.

Also a proper two-headed Chaos Dragon at the size of the Warpfire Dragon with an option for a Chaos Lord or Chaos Sorcerer rider(Heck they could just use the same plastic body parts from the dark elves black dragon like they do for the Warpfire Dragon kit)

And talking about titanic monsters, make a gigantic Rot Kraken/Ship for Gutrot Spume and his Blghtkings to ride.

[EccentricCircle]

I'm the proud owner of a Legion of Azgorh army, and also have Elspeth, so relatively speaking i've invested quite heavily into forgeworld stuff. It helps that I'm not really fussed on the rules at all. If I use them its only going to be in friendly or narrative games.

I think the big problem for me is the cost. Its not something I can get with any regularity, and some of the bigger beasties are just too big. I'd love to get a dread saurian, and in fact its pretty much the only Lizardmen model I don't own. However the price tag has always put me off. Things like the Dread Maw, Mournghul and Magma Dragon are really cool and if I recall correctly, a bit more affordable, but not something I can just buy on a whim.

I'm a little skeptical of their Middle Earth stuff as well. That is one of my favourite GW games, but some of the models they've put out are just really too steep a price increase on the older metal equivalents.

[Dead Scribe]

26 minutes ago, Overread said:

I can never understand how a comapny who can employ generally fantastic and enthusiastic staff for their UK stores can utterly fail with their overseas stores. I can only assume that something in the hiring and management system is broken or just full of people who trained at a department store and don't realise that a hobby store is an entirely different beast.

1 hour gaming limits? Freaking heck you can hardly guarantee even the smaller games always fitting into that time slot and that means no 40K nor AoS games being played ever (at least beyond 500 points or so)

Every store in the US is different.  It depends on who you get as a manager.  A lot of the managers are not fans of the hobby at all (I've been told that GW actively discourages hiring fans of the hobby as their store managers) and have a quota of sales to meet.  

They also don't understand the concept of building a community.  A happy community is what spends money in your store.  By having things like hour time limits on tables and disallowing anything but the latest models on your table, you are driving the community away to other stores.  And that is why these managers never last very long and why their stores don't do well.

The stores that do well are almost always run by managers that encourage community building and use their stores to play the games and run events and celebrate the game and hobby as a whole. 

But GW corporate in the US doesn't see that as a requirement from what I have gathered.

[zilberfrid]

29 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

GW managers allow FW at their own discretion.  If your GW manager is mostly a car salesman type person, this is often the route they go.  Their store is their catalog.  They don't want models in their store that they don't sell because someone sees a cool model and goes to buy it but they cannot.  So they go online to get it instead.

Our GW manager did not allow any FW or any older models that were no longer part of the catalog.  He also restricted your table time to an hour max.  Which is why no one plays at our GW store.  I don't use FW simply because most of the FW catalog is weak rules-wise and not every event lets you use them so they aren't really standard.

Your GW manager is not doing himself a service this way. Even a half-hour game easily stretches over an hour with a new player, and none of those cool-but-expensive armies will be fielded.

So new players do not get to see AoS or 40k, nor do they have the time to learn. No new players, no players extending their army to big ones. Who is going to buy his merchandise?

[Overread]

 

8 minutes ago, EccentricCircle said:

I think the big problem for me is the cost. Its not something I can get with any regularity, and some of the bigger beasties are just too big. I'd love to get a dread saurian, and in fact its pretty much the only Lizardmen model I don't own. However the price tag has always put me off. Things like the Dread Maw, Mournghul and Magma Dragon are really cool and if I recall correctly, a bit more affordable, but not something I can just buy on a whim.

Honestly I think the cost issue has come down dramatically over the years.

Way back when I started I recall the most expensive from GW were things like dragons and dreadnoughts - they were a whopping £35 EACH (or there abouts). Whilst the FW stuff was comparable in price to today - well up into the £80s and beyond. Plus back then postage was slower and it was "please leave at least 2 weeks for delivery" and online was only just coming around; you had to mail in cheques etc... Ergo it was more faff and the price difference was alarmingly big.

 

Today we've got £100 models from GW direct in plastic. Whilst many armies have £50 models and things priced higher. So today the FW prices are actually quite comparable to GW's internal prices. Wolf rats are £35 for 5 and are an elite style unit, in the UK market that's a pretty comparable price to most elite style plastic troops of the same number. 

Sure FW also has some extremes like the Titans, but a good healthy bulk of the models are honestly very fairly priced - in the UK at least. I'm aware overseas the conversion rates are a messy situation, but in general I think the price disparity between GW and FW is far reduced than it ever was in the past. 

 

 

In short price shouldn't be "as much" of a barrier as it once was. I think its more to do with rules support and marketing and market awareness. 

[Mogwai Man]

I would like to see Forgeworld come up with more alternative bits to use (i.e. stormcast eternal heads) than new models. I'm probably in the minority though.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Mogwai Man

[zilberfrid]

11 minutes ago, Mogwai Man said:

I would like to see Forgeworld come up with more alternative bits to use (i.e. stormcast eternal heads) than new models. I'm probably in the minority though.

You might be in the minority, but you're not alone. I selected my last Warhammer purchases on the amount of bits in the set, more than on the sets themselves.

Alternative shields & shieldarms swords & swordarms etc would make sense, as well as things like alternately posed demigryphs/gryph chargers and horses.

[Acid_Nine]

you know, I am still kinda holding out the barest sliver of hope that FW is going to release a monstrous squid or a water dragon for idoneth. dunno why, but I can dream...

[Overread]

 

Thought this might be good to push up right about now with all the FW chatter in this thread

If we want more - lets buy more and show more and use more 

[novakai]

in a way it doesn't look like GW has intension of growing out Forge world or giving them more manpower. from what I heard the team is very small. because of it the are more focus on Horus heresy, specialist games and accessories to specialist game. the fact that they disband the AoS teams seems to me that their main focus is not there. 

Profitwise they probably get by with lower purchasing numbers since  selling high price products counteract this,

[PlasticCraic]

Really intersting discussion this one.  Let's be clear on one thing though, if FW models can be used effectively and competitively, they will sell...Sayl and the Mournghul were EVERYWHERE a couple of years back.  When they brought back the Rogue Idol, people went crazy for it - there were waiting lists!  

I'm personally a Destruction player, and one of the big things I love about the faction is the big things...I love and own most of the FW Destruction monsters.  My Troggoth Hag, Bonegrinder Gargant, Rogue Idol and Colossal Squig have the right keywords to be useful, and they do see table time. 

My Magma Dragon and Dread Maw not so much.  The Magma Dragon is excellent and I use him in Mixed Destruction lists to great effect. or at least I did...the list has been killed now that Gitmob were yanked out of the game.  The Dread Maw is one of those awesome models with bad rules, so he doesn't see much table time unfortunately, although I occasionally take him out for a spin in casual games.  My Fimir are woeful, whoever compared them to Rockguts at 140 points is bang on the money.  But that's ok - not every warscroll has to be cutting edge competitive, and I bought them mainly for Hero Quest nostalgia.  

When they updated the PDFs this time last year, it was a great day and really encouraged me that they had a long term future.  I was set to buy a Merwyrm and Basilisk...and then I realised they could not be allied into any armies, so I passed on the purchase, and I haven't looked at any FW purchases since.

From my own point of view, I'm very nervous about the future of these models.  Removing Gitmob as Battleline from the GA with by far the fewest Battleline options, coupled with the complete absence of support in the Allies table, makes me wonder how long FW is going to be part of the game at all.  If GA armies are being phased out, where will that leave FW?  

What I'd personally like to see is Battletome: The Savage Tribes (in line with the entry in the Core Book).  Bring all the remaining strands of Destruction together and give the Savage Tribes keyword to the FW monsters that don't already have a keyword.  No need for any new models (although you would probably do some Endless Spells and a Terrain piece to fund the project)...basically at that point you have the Destruction equivalent of Beasts of Chaos, and the FW monsters have a secure place in the game where they can actually be used.

If you also brought out Battletome: Free Cities, and the Everchosen / Darkoath / STD book, at that point you could probably kill GA armies altogether without leaving anything homeless.  

13 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

One of the problems with doing this is that Forge World wouldn't be able to keep up with demand - they simply don't have the factory capacity to increase the supply, so have artificially limited the demand by making it more difficult to get hold of.  In all honesty, getting hold of FW is nowhere near as painful as it once was now that they've a cheap £3.50 shipping option rather than 12% of the order.

Honestly I find this quite chilling.  Going out of your way to proactively prevent sales...talk about being set up to fail. 

One thing that hasn't been discussed AFAIK in this thread so far is counterfeiting.  Resin products are by their nature easier to copy than plastic, I wonder if that could be another reason that GW doesn't see a future in promiting FW?  You couldn't really blame them if that was the case.

Either way, this makes me very nervous about all the money and time I've tipped into FW models and what if any future they have.  I don't ask for everything to be cutting edge competitive - but I do think it's reasonable to expect that a product that was sold as having a place in Matched Play does have one.

[RuneBrush]

5 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Honestly I find this quite chilling.  Going out of your way to proactively prevent sales...talk about being set up to fail. 

It's actually not as uncommon as a business practice as you think.  If you know you have a low supply, you can restrict demand by increasing price - that's obviously a massive oversimplification (as any economist would tell you).  It's actually similar to how the Bank of England lower interest rates in order to stimulate people spending.

5 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Either way, this makes me very nervous about all the money and time I've tipped into FW models and what if any future they have.  I don't ask for everything to be cutting edge competitive - but I do think it's reasonable to expect that a product that was sold as having a place in Matched Play does have one.

Providing the model is actively being sold, it'll receive support.  Currently where there is more of an issue with regards to Matched Play is models that are only on sale for a short time span e.g. Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass.

[PlasticCraic]

18 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

It's actually not as uncommon as a business practice as you think.  If you know you have a low supply, you can restrict demand by increasing price - that's obviously a massive oversimplification (as any economist would tell you).  It's actually similar to how the Bank of England lower interest rates in order to stimulate people spending.

Oh absolutely, I understand the concept of supply and demand, the price the market will bear, the invisible hand, etc.  I think where I would draw a distinction is between setting a price that's high enough to make the market clear at the production capacity you have available, versus trying to actually dampen demand through non-price factors and shrink your potential market in dollar terms. 

Meeting your demand through setting an appropriate price is normal business practice: proactively shrinking your market and discouraging sales without maximising your price sounds like something quite different.

There are many reasons why this could be a legitimate business strategy.  For example, GW may be cautious about committing to resin because it is easier to recast and counterfeit than plastic.  They may think they can get better results with plastic now, especially for fine detail like Nighthaunt that could be too fragile in resin.  Since the business has grown so much in the last few years, they may be more confident that the economics stacks up for relatively lower volume lines in plastic (higher fixed costs, lower ongoing material costs vs resin) than it did previously, so they don't actually need resin.  Or they might just like making plastic because they have a strategic advantage in it and customers love it.

All of which would be rational and justifiable business reasons for investing in plastic and steering away from resin.  But none of which gives me confidence in the future of the resin products that I have already bought in good faith.

31 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Providing the model is actively being sold, it'll receive support.  Currently where there is more of an issue with regards to Matched Play is models that are only on sale for a short time span e.g. Guardian of Souls with Mortality Glass.

Again I totally agree with and understand this - but what is actively being sold today is not the same as what is actively being sold tomorrow. 

Gitmob Grots have recently been removed from sale (and then shortly afterwards Matched Play) with no notice or warning.  In that context it's only rational to be cautious about what may or may not be sold and therefore supported in the not too distant future.

[Knight Scáthach of Fimm]

On 7/11/2019 at 8:18 AM, Eevika said:

In AoS I believe there are like 2 models from FW that are somewhat playable Mournghoul is good and Troggoth Hag actually pretty great. Everything else is awful just look at stuff like Fimir Warriors 140 points compared to Rockgut Troggoths also 140 points. They dont compare at all. Atleast my local GW allows me to play my Hag and love it. The model always get people to come and look at it

I don't think that's a fair comparison when Rockguts literally just came down 20 points a few days ago. You're complaining about a problem that was created in the space of a few days and expect it to be fixed in such; and they don't suddenly become awful just because a competitor got cheaper. Yes, Fimir ought to go back down to 120; as someone with 12 of both models I would appreciate them having a better use over Rockguts, as currently they are only superior at ranged defense and bravery.

[Eevika]

1 minute ago, Knight Scáthach of Fimm said:

I don't think that's a fair comparison when Rockguts literally just came down 20 points a few days ago. You're complaining about a problem that was created in the space of a few days and expect it to be fixed in such; and they don't suddenly become awful just because a competitor got cheaper. Yes, Fimir ought to go back down to 120; as someone with 12 of both models I would appreciate them having a better use over Rockguts, as currently they are only superior at ranged defense and bravery.

I mean yeah it was created just this week but Fimir had the chance to be repointed 2 weeks ago and you bet GW knew Troggoths were dropping too. Now its a year of waiting for a maybe drop on fimir or its just completely forgotten and they never change

[AaronWilson]

One thing I feel is that there is a big disconnect between the GW & FW rules writing team.

[Dorimant]

19 hours ago, Overread said:

Honestly I think the cost issue has come down dramatically over the years.

I think this is fair, although until you get 'Start Collecting Legion of Azgorh', there is going to be a premium.

An issue with me for Forgeworld is simply that resin is harder to work with. The detail of the models is great, I especially love the Legion's beards, but you do have to work it quite a lot. Compare this to the modern GW Prime plastics which are almost cut-out-and-play levels of complexity and there's a major time consideration here.

One thing I have noticed is that the Legion are actually one of more fully 'stocked' armies out there. When compared to the Fyreslayers or Ironjawz, the Legion have a reasonable number of choices. Mostly though, they're lacking in hero choices, which is something that could be easily improved without the sort of costs of putting the Fimir together.

[Eevika]

18 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

One thing I feel is that there is a big disconnect between the GW & FW rules writing team.

Fun fact its the same team. AoS team makes all the rules

[Wraith01]

I'd rather AoS stay with just the plastic mini's. 

GW should keep Forgeworld for 30k and 40k stuff. 

[kuroyume]

12 minutes ago, Wraith01 said:

I'd rather AoS stay with just the plastic mini's. 

 

This. I'm ok with not having to deal with the premium pricing and difficult material of FW minis. Keep AoS releases all plastic. 

[Televiper11]

I'd hate to see FW drop LoA just to make AoS all plastic. No way they remake the whole LoA line in plastic. The army will get squatted and that's that, which is too bad as it is a near-complete line and competitively viable.