How would you fix the horde meta?

[EMMachine]

12 hours ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

5. Field Trebuchet (auto hits units of 7+ models)

It's not really a Bonus against hordes. It hasn't a specified Bonus against 20+ models and makes at best as much damage as the other warmachines against 10 models. The other warmachines make 2d6 damage against 20+ models.

It is as good against small units as against large units.

Edited July 11, 2019 by EMMachine

[Eevika]

14 hours ago, Laststand said:

@Eevika can I ask what army you primarily use? 

My usual army is Gloomspite GItz Troggoths with a list something like this 

Troggboss
Fungoid 
Fungoid
Madcap 

60x Grots 
6x Fellwater
3x Fellwater
3x Fellwater
3x Fellwater
10x Loonsmasha Fanatics

Arachno Cauldron
Scuttletide

[Duke of Gisoreux]

7 hours ago, EMMachine said:

It's not really a Bonus against hordes. It hasn't a specified Bonus against 20+ models and makes at best as much damage as the other warmachines against 10 models. The other warmachines make 2d6 damage against 20+ models.

It is as good against small units as against large units.

Wrong. As the hit chance increases the more models the unit has, it is definitely better against large units. Against unit of 6 or less models it does less damage as the chance to do no damage at all is higher.

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

Wrong. As the hit chance increases the more models the unit has, it is definitely better against large units. Against unit of 6 or less models it does less damage as the chance to do no damage at all is higher.

7+ is hardly a horde, but it is better against multiple enemies, that I agree with

[whispersofblood]

...what horde meta? 

I think most factions skew list fits well underneath the low 70+ limit set by the OP.

My competitive GHB18 DoK list was 80+ heroes, it's 70 + heroes now. My HoS list included 60 + heroes, the updated version is 55+ heroes. We can't get much smaller than that and still be an army game. Skaven and GSB are probably the only factions that might get over 80. 

The meta is full of super powered single models, who have a host of advantages over multi-model units. The one advantage that 10+ men have over a single monster is the ability to possibly have more models within 6" of an objective. And that isn't even true in every battleplan.

The problem is you probably spam the same battleplan and limited terrain in all your games. And your gaming group naturally drift to army builds that best use suit the limited number of variables present

Alternatively play one of the many skirmish games on the market as your low model count game and play Age of Sigmar as your army game.  

[zilberfrid]

35 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

...what horde meta? 

I think most factions skew list fits well underneath the low 70+ limit set by the OP.

Skaven and GSB are probably the only factions that might get over 80. 

Free people can also get over 80 in any list over 750 points, and most of the times will. They are, granted, a horde army, but can not be called overpowered.

Edited July 11, 2019 by zilberfrid

[XReN]

39 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Alternatively play one of the many skirmish games on the market as your low model count game and play Age of Sigmar as your army game. 

That is quite ignorant response, don't you think that playing an elite army in wargame (where it is obviously intended to be a viable option with SCE, FEC Knights battleline, Troggoth battleline, BCR, Maggotking Mortals existing) and playing a skirmish are very different experiences?

Should BCR players just throw away their armies and play Dark Age or Malifaux?

Edited July 11, 2019 by XReN

[whispersofblood]

34 minutes ago, XReN said:

That is quite ignorant response, don't you think that playing an elite army in wargame (where it is obviously intended to be a viable option with SCE, FEC Knights battleline, Troggoth battleline, BCR, Maggotking Mortals existing) and playing a skirmish are very different experiences?

Should BCR players just throw away their armies and play Dark Age or Malifaux?

BCR are a non-functional faction not because they are elite but because their warscrolls do functionally no dmg. They hit like a toddler on an extra teaspoon of cough medicine. But even they have the options to bulk up their numbers for the objective game. 

Troggoth are not a faction no matter how much you might want them to be. May as well declare the game broken because aetherwing chamber.l isn't viable. If you skew on a single option then you are going to struggle regardless. I've explained why a meta might devolve to the point where it's just 90+ models on the board. But at the end of the day this is a game about a world where armies that cross the horizon class.

They have multiple ways of playing with the models maybe 2000 point matched play isn't what you are looking for. 

The elite armies most notably sit just about or just under a 50% win rate. That includes the disporptionate number of new or inexperienced players using them competitively. Their two best builds include upwards of 30+ models.

IDK is an elite cav army and it has approaching a 60% win rate at the end of ghb+18. If fields between. 27 +heroes and 58 + heroes.

Again there are a number of different ways to play AoS besides 2000 points matched play. There are also other games which focus on a few number of models this is not one of them. It's ok to not want to play an army game. Just go find one you want to play.

[XReN]

23 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

BCR are a non-functional faction not because they are elite but because their warscrolls do functionally no dmg. They hit like a toddler on an extra teaspoon of cough medicine. But even they have the options to bulk up their numbers for the objective game. 

Troggoth are not a faction no matter how much you might want them to be. May as well declare the game broken because aetherwing chamber.l isn't viable. If you skew on a single option then you are going to struggle regardless. I've explained why a meta might devolve to the point where it's just 90+ models on the board. But at the end of the day this is a game about a world where armies that cross the horizon class.

They have multiple ways of playing with the models maybe 2000 point matched play isn't what you are looking for. 

The elite armies most notably sit just about or just under a 50% win rate. That includes the disporptionate number of new or inexperienced players using them competitively. Their two best builds include upwards of 30+ models.

IDK is an elite cav army and it has approaching a 60% win rate at the end of ghb+18. If fields between. 27 +heroes and 58 + heroes.

Again there are a number of different ways to play AoS besides 2000 points matched play. There are also other games which focus on a few number of models this is not one of them. It's ok to not want to play an army game. Just go find one you want to play.

So, should there be something done with BCR then, what do you think?

In GHB 2019 GWs set 2000 points as tournament standart, that's the size of a game things should be balanced around then and every army, forget about FEC knights and Troggoths, should be viable.

I agree that people who struggle with the game should try to get better, but first - telling them to do so has never seen any success so why bother and second: that is not the discussion going on, I pointed out why the situation we have now is "horde meta", feel free to read and argue with my opinion  and experience on the topic.

 

[Mogwai Man]

Behemoths being priced horribly and certain units (e.g. plague monks) being priced too cheaply reinforce the horde meta. 

[whispersofblood]

2 minutes ago, XReN said:

So, should there be something done with BCR then, what do you think?

In GHB 2019 GWs set 2000 points as tournament standart, that's the size of a game things should be balanced around then and every army, forget about FEC knights and Troggoths, should be viable.

I agree that people who struggle with the game should try to get better, but first - telling them to do so has never seen any success so why bother and second: that is not the discussion going on, I pointed out why the situation we have now is "horde meta", feel free to read and argue with my opinion  and experience on the topic.

 

Yes clearly BCR don't do dmg, if they did dmg they would probably be a better faction, but that isn't a meta problem the faction is garbage. They have the units to play the game, the units just have bad warscrolls so they are stuck until they get a new book. 

Trollgoths are viable as a warscroll they pack something no gobbo unit really does, durability and punch into one package. An army of troggoths however is not viable, because the game is about movement and they suffer chronically from low movement therefore their force projection will always be low. A GSG army sucks you in while you attempt to kill worthless gobbos, pulls you apart and smashes you in isolation.

FEC summon knights, because they have a secondary resource to spend on them. But the Battletomb supports that playstyle if you so want to play it, its just not the best playstyle in the book. IDK is the exact opposite it has almost no support for a non-cavalry dominated playstyle which runs directly countridictory to your point. 

I don't think most people enjoy the play experience of very elite army builds though. You just have to look at the reactions to BCR, Skyfire spam, and Gavbombs. A true elite army has to be very precise, fairly durable and very high dmg or it will just get bogged down. The mechanics of how it accomplishes those goals may change, but all three must still be true. And, it doesn't seem like the vocal majority of players enjoy seeing 10 or 15 models remove an army, which it must do or it will never be able to physically reach the objectives, especially if there is more than 2 or 3 objectives.  

Again GHB2019 set the tournament standard of this army game to 2000 points. There are various was of playing the game so that it isn't an army game, but yes its default is a 2000 point army game. 

I can' say I agree with your assessment of the meta though. Mostly the game is about very powerful single models, and units with a high volume of attacks who support them. I actually think that is what most people think of when they think of a army game. Bodies control board space, one of the ways they do this is by making themselves seem threatening. But, in reality if a single monster hits a unit from the side as opposed to the front most hordes struggle to apply themselves, they will however do some damage. Units of infantry doing no dmg to monsters was a massive complaint from earlier editions of Warhammer.

At the extreme end sure witches with mindrazor and plague monks with dbl death frenzy these are units of supreme output, but most 30+ infantry units actually have a pretty paltry number of attacks per model, lacking quality and 1" reach. 

[EMMachine]

21 hours ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

Wrong. As the hit chance increases the more models the unit has, it is definitely better against large units. Against unit of 6 or less models it does less damage as the chance to do no damage at all is higher.

 

19 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

7+ is hardly a horde, but it is better against multiple enemies, that I agree with

That's what I meant. Even if we look at the Open War Army Generator the definition of Horde would be 20 models minimum in a unit (actually more likely 30+ models), while 7+ works already on "Regular" Units (10 models) and doesn't get better against a higher model count (in fact the Trebuchet has a higher damage output against smaller units than the other warmachines mentioned because it has 2 Attacks with D6 damage regardless of the modelcount), it only gets a higher chance to hit something. If it hits with both attacks it could basicly make 2D6 Damage against a single model, so it is not specified as "anti Horde"

In comparisson the Fieldmortar (that is sadly compendium) and the Grot Scraplauncher would make D3 damage against units with less than 10 models, D6 damage against units with 10-20 models and 2D6 against units with 20 or more models.

The Plague claw does D6 damage against units with D6 damagae and gets +1 to Hit and 2D6 damage against units with 10 or more models

They are basicly intended to make less damage against elite units and more damage against bigger units.

Anti Horde is basicly, creating more potential damage against larger units, not having a higher chance to create the same damage, that the weapon would do against small units.

Edited July 12, 2019 by EMMachine

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

.

Anti Horde is basicly, creating more potential damage against larger units, not having a higher chance to create the same damage, that the weapon would do against small units.

Yeah, I guess the warpflamer is also a good example.

it basically has no real effect against units with 2or more wounds but will deal  magnificent damage to any 1wounded targets that come in mass.

we can also see that anti horde spells, weapons and ability have been and probably will be added in the future more and more.

[Duke of Gisoreux]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

Anti Horde is basicly, creating more potential damage against larger units, not having a higher chance to create the same damage, that the weapon would do against small units.

There's no difference between higher damage characteristic and higher chance to hit. Both inflict more damage when calculating average damage. The Field Trebuchet for example does double damage on average against 7+ models compared to a single model. 7+ models include 20+ models, so it's even better.

[EMMachine]

39 minutes ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

There's no difference between higher damage characteristic and higher chance to hit. Both inflict more damage when calculating average damage. The Field Trebuchet for example does double damage on average against 7+ models compared to a single model. 7+ models include 20+ models, so it's even better.

With this definition every unit with 7+models would be a horde (from models with only 1 wound per model as well as a 6 rat unit of Stormfiends (91,67% chance to hit) would basicly be a horde or 5 Blightkings (that are hit with a 83,33% chance if I didn't have a misscalculation)). And the last two are elite and higher. The Field Tribuchet is basicly an all-rounder, not specific anti horde.

Because if it was anti-horde it would make nealy no damage (not even kill one of the models if it only has D3 damage against units with less than 10 models) against those two (thanks to low Modelsize) and would be devastating against hordes.

edit:

changed the to Hit percentage because the additional hit roll is less models not equal or less

Edited July 12, 2019 by EMMachine

[Deathwatch]

 

1 hour ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

There's no difference between higher damage characteristic and higher chance to hit. Both inflict more damage when calculating average damage. The Field Trebuchet for example does double damage on average against 7+ models compared to a single model. 7+ models include 20+ models, so it's even better.

But it doesn't do more damage to a 40 model unit than it does to a 7 model unit is the point people are trying to make, so it doesn't scale to help more against the 'new' horde meta any more than it helped against a 'min unit of 10' meta..