How would you fix the horde meta?

[XReN]

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

Some consider 70+ armies at 2000 points a horde army, while this is where balanced armies live. 120+ models on the table would be a much more realistic number (quite reachable at 1000, by the way).

If you move the goalpost by that much, all non-elite armies are horde armies.

There's the crux of the discussion, unrealistic expectations.

Now I do agree remaining wounds would be a better metric than models, but that's about the only good point.

The name of the discussion is "horde meta", for me it's quite different from "horde army"

I only run 40/10/10 ghouls in my FEC lists, but I get so much value from those 40 ghouls it's insane, even for hefty 360 points they are still great, they:

Can screen off my entire army

Can fight as good as my main DD units - GKoTG and GKoZD

They can tarpit anything with support of heroes, if I don't need good anti armor values - I can buff up my ghouls and send them to make my opponent's life a nightmare

They make my monsters fighting alongside them close to immortal, I beat BCR with 3 stupid MW cows by sacrificing my ghouls constantly and healing my monster by this through Chalice of Ushoran

And something that wasn't mentioned in this tread earlier - hordes make preserving kill points easier.

So for me the "horde meta" means getting way more value from your avarage joes than it should be by logical means, when they outshine many other choices, doesn't matter if it's 40 dudes or 4 times 40 dudes.

Edited July 10, 2019 by XReN

[novakai]

58 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Was it the last Lord war event where this guy with the plague monk spam won?

if so I’m not sure if you mean dan brewer, because his army well didn’t even had any  plague monks  in it at all.

although he went a bit more out on clanrats, than most did in the past months. (100 instead of 60)

 

Look at the result again the winner was Andreas Nic, who ran an allegiance Clan Pestilens army with 130 plague monks in congregation of filth battalion, though he did have a Corruptor with the Sword of Japan.

[Skreech Verminking]

12 minutes ago, novakai said:

Look at the result again the winner was Andreas Nic, who ran an allegiance Clan Pestilens army with 130 plague monks in congregation of filth battalion, though he did have a Corruptor with the Sword of Japan.

Sorry I’m a bit confused.

Been looking at the Lord of war event in australia 2019.

that event where doom and darkness went to and also previewed the army lists am I looking at the wrong event?

because the winner of the tournament seems to be Dan brewer with his acolytes verminlords clanrats, Doomwheel etc. (No plague monks)

[InSaint]

Damage also needs to be more consistent on elite armies.

Statistically speaking, horde will deal more consistent damage due to the number of dice rolls. And consistency is what makes armies competitively.

[novakai]

8 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Sorry I’m a bit confused.

Been looking at the Lord of war event in australia 2019.

that event where doom and darkness went to and also previewed the army lists am I looking at the wrong event?

because the winner of the tournament seems to be Dan brewer with his acolytes verminlords clanrats, Doomwheel etc. (No plague monks)

https://thedwellersbelow.net/2019/06/24/lord-of-war-2019-results/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vT9f03lVcBus22O34ol67w714PgbXoWQ5_Y-f1gYvZlck_s2VELMfszNDeuPisyLTeJezMLmCzGH4ur/pubhtml?gid=139884563&single=true

is this one right? unless I gone crazy and been reading the result wrong but the guy who got best general had the Clan Pestliens army

[Skreech Verminking]

9 minutes ago, novakai said:

https://thedwellersbelow.net/2019/06/24/lord-of-war-2019-results/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vT9f03lVcBus22O34ol67w714PgbXoWQ5_Y-f1gYvZlck_s2VELMfszNDeuPisyLTeJezMLmCzGH4ur/pubhtml?gid=139884563&single=true

is this one right? unless I gone crazy and been reading the result wrong but the guy who got best general had the Clan Pestliens army

Thanks, seems like I’ve been misreading a few things myself 😅.

[Eevika]

Ok I might have to correct myself horde armies are not that dominant 150+ models. But horde units aka units of 30+ models are the most dominant thing in the game and better than everything else. 

[Dead Scribe]

Thats because they gave horde discounts for max units and then gave bonuses for having max sized units.  They made it optimal (read: undercost) to take max sized units.  Not all units, but the ones you are seeing in all of our competitive lists.

[Eevika]

46 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Thats because they gave horde discounts for max units and then gave bonuses for having max sized units.  They made it optimal (read: undercost) to take max sized units.  Not all units, but the ones you are seeing in all of our competitive lists.

Horde discount is so weird I just dont get it. The more guys you take into your strongest unit the cheaper it is??

[Beliman]

31 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Thats because they gave horde discounts for max units and then gave bonuses for having max sized units.  They made it optimal (read: undercost) to take max sized units.  Not all units, but the ones you are seeing in all of our competitive lists.

I don't have any problem with max sized units like Freeguild Guards or Dwarf Warriors.
My main problem is with some buffs (outside of their own warscrolls):

• Battleshock buffs: Generic bravery buffs with banners or just the number of miniatures, inmunity to that phase, etc...
• Offensive buffs: Between more atacks, double fighting, fight at the begining of the phase, rend, etc..
• Defense buffs: Saves after saves, ressurection, ignore mortals, etc...

Again, IMO, Dwarf Warriors are not a problem, but buffed Plague Monks that destroy everything they touch, are inmunity to battleshock and  really, really hard to take down is another completely diferent thing.

[Eevika]

13 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I don't have any problem with max sized units like Freeguild Guards or Dwarf Warriors.
My main problem is with some buffs (outside of their own warscrolls):

• Battleshock buffs: Generic bravery buffs with banners or just the number of miniatures, inmunity to that phase, etc...
• Offensive buffs: Between more atacks, double fighting, fight at the begining of the phase, rend, etc..
• Defense buffs: Saves after saves, ressurection, ignore mortals, etc...

Again, IMO, Dwarf Warriors are not a problem, but buffed Plague Monks that destroy everything they touch, are inmunity to battleshock and  really, really hard to take down is another completely diferent thing.

I agree that this is not a problem with older units but it is with pretty much all of the new stuff and thats what really matters as it shows GWs current game design mentality

[Dead Scribe]

32 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I don't have any problem with max sized units like Freeguild Guards or Dwarf Warriors.
My main problem is with some buffs (outside of their own warscrolls):

• Battleshock buffs: Generic bravery buffs with banners or just the number of miniatures, inmunity to that phase, etc...
• Offensive buffs: Between more atacks, double fighting, fight at the begining of the phase, rend, etc..
• Defense buffs: Saves after saves, ressurection, ignore mortals, etc...

Again, IMO, Dwarf Warriors are not a problem, but buffed Plague Monks that destroy everything they touch, are inmunity to battleshock and  really, really hard to take down is another completely diferent thing.

As I recall there were a few people against the horde discount and had said that those units were already strong due to their buffs and that making them cheaper would just make them always-takes that would walk in OP-land, but they were shut down pretty hard by the community.

I happened to agree with them, but gladly loaded up on them because it is a no brainer in a lot of cases.

[zilberfrid]

4 hours ago, Eevika said:

Ok I might have to correct myself horde armies are not that dominant 150+ models. But horde units aka units of 30+ models are the most dominant thing in the game and better than everything else. 

Thanks, that evens the discussion a bit. I do like discussing things with people that are willing to shift their views.

Now, as for the horde units, I think discounts and stacking benefits are something that might not be the most interesting choice together, and I do play as Freeguild, so my guard absolutely benefits from this. I cannot speak for other armies very well, I am too new for that.

I would find it more logical to give stacking benefits or large unit discount. For Guards, you really want those full-stack units for the to hit, and the discount when it kicks in is quite severe. It might be better to do the following:

• Guards: 80/160/240/320 (so no discount)
• Crossbowmen/Archers/Handgunners:  100/200/300
• Greatswords 120/220/300 (so half of the discount at a double MSU unit, full reduction at a triple MSU unit)
• Outriders/pistoleers 120/230/320 (some discount, but reduced max unit size to 15, could even be 10, as a light cav unit)
• Demigryphs 130/260/380/500 (minor reduction in larger groups, but they do need to be able to stack to 12 to be able to be in a Great Company.

Similar changes could be made to other armies. Then change objective holding to wounds remaining, and we're quite somewhere, I'd think. 

I have read up on plague monks a bit, and they have too many stackable effects,

 Contagion Banner + Icon of Pestilence + Doom Gong + Bale-chime seems too much, and they also get a discount.

I'd say remove their discount, and limit these specials to either, so if you have 20, 30 or 40 models, you get one of "Contagion Banner or Icon of Pestilence" and on of "Doom Gong or Bale-chime", and they still are very good (at least compared to what I can field, that is).

Edited July 10, 2019 by zilberfrid

[HammerOfSigmar]

13 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Why exactly are we going back to plague monks spam?

I have only heard about a few of those list, which seem to have been eaten whole by FEC terrorgheists.

also why exactly should put immunity buffs be so drastically overpowered.

Don’t tell me you hate it when clanrats won’t run away because they have to be wholly within a certain distance (usually 13)  of a model.

Please tell me which skaven list that counted around 200++ models won a tournament or event because it was battleshock immune.

yes I agree with you that plague monks are too cheap for what they actually do, but you can’t compare that with other units or armies.

or please tell me why our battleshock immune skaven (mixed) army had a 0% chance of winning (because almost nobody took them to such events) before the book dropped, when hordes from your perspective seemed to have been dominating the events since 2.0 dropped.

  Anyways I think it’s time we just enjoy our games.

FEC, the skaven, etc. All have been nerved a bit.

points have been raised on all verminlords and the warpseer finally went up a ton Of points.

plague monks aren’t as cheap as they ones were (although still a rather cheap unit to consider taking)

the warplightning vortex has been changed a bit (although the change might change the game drastically for the skaven builds)

and all of our very cheap casters got an increase in points too.

I think it’s time to start trying a few things out and then to discuss the stuff we dislike and like etc..

 

I just use plague monk as an example for stacking a hugh amount of the same model in this game, and there are also a bunch similar stuff in the game,  I just don't want to type everything out.... 

Moreover, I do hear from my friend that a plauge monk model fully buffed can do 21 attacks per model before it is removed(I remember it is using some magic that allow the mdoel to pile in and attack before it is removed, and this effect can stack).....

[Kramer]

19 hours ago, Eevika said:

I have never said I want them to be standard not once. I said I want them to be viable. Multiple times in this thread. I want everything to fall between 45-55% winrate. BcR is at 30% and most low model count armies are the same

That wont happen unless they scrap enough armies so it becomes manageable. 

I don’t doubt they could make BCR work even in a horde focussed set of scenarios.  But not consistently  if it takes 2 editions for the cycle to come back around. And that goes for every army that gets no updates that long. 

For me the massive scope of army choices by far outweighs the ambitions of everything having roughly the same win rate. 

[XReN]

5 minutes ago, HammerOfSigmar said:

Moreover, I do hear from my friend that a plauge monk model fully buffed can do 21 attacks per model before it is removed(I remember it is using some magic that allow the mdoel to pile in and attack before it is removed, and this effect can stack).....

That is true, across 2 weapon profiles with attack buff they get 7 attacks per model, then you cast Death Frenzy and Dreaded Death Frenzy for essentially 2 activations after model was killed

[Eevika]

2 minutes ago, Kramer said:

That wont happen unless they scrap enough armies so it becomes manageable. 

I don’t doubt they could make BCR work even in a horde focussed set of scenarios.  But not consistently  if it takes 2 editions for the cycle to come back around. And that goes for every army that gets no updates that long. 

For me the massive scope of army choices by far outweighs the ambitions of everything having roughly the same win rate. 

Thats a total cop out answer though videogames have been doing this for years. League of Legends 144 champions each with 5 abilities and each has access to hundreds of items and runes with almost infinite combinations. Every single one of those is 55-45% in winrate becouse they know when something goes above 55% its toxic and creates a negative experience so its nerfed fast

[MrZakalwe]

1 hour ago, Dead Scribe said:

As I recall there were a few people against the horde discount and had said that those units were already strong due to their buffs and that making them cheaper would just make them always-takes that would walk in OP-land, but they were shut down pretty hard by the community.

I think that's because the vast majority of them weren't a problem. 

Before the horde bonuses there was only a couple of units in the game that you took in non-minimum sized units .

The massive unit reduction as a general system is decent in that it means you sometimes see big units - rather than MSU all day every day like before - but that doesn't mean they didn't mess up with the costs on some units. 

 The Verminlord Warpseer had it's cost increased at least as much as any Massive Regiment (and for good reason, at 260 it was gross while at 300 it's probably still undercosted).

Edited July 10, 2019 by MrZakalwe

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, Eevika said:

Thats a total cop out answer though videogames have been doing this for years. League of Legends 144 champions each with 5 abilities and each has access to hundreds of items and runes with almost infinite combinations. Every single one of those is 55-45% in winrate becouse they know when something goes above 55% its toxic and creates a negative experience so its nerfed fast

Teemo OP! Rito Nerf Plis!!!!

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, Eevika said:

Thats a total cop out answer though videogames have been doing this for years. League of Legends 144 champions each with 5 abilities and each has access to hundreds of items and runes with almost infinite combinations. Every single one of those is 55-45% in winrate becouse they know when something goes above 55% its toxic and creates a negative experience so its nerfed fast

As we all know the factions in video games are developed in 2 year cycles separate from each other, use scales of 6 and feedback from the performance is only accrued over time and mostly subjective. 

Its a plain wrong comparison in my mind. And you could change the scales to D10’s, or d20’s. But you can’t get instant feedback, so correction will take some time. And even if you do get your feedback faster if the production team apparently can only manage two year cycles with the current factions. So even then you’ll still won’t manage those specific winrates.

Now I’m not arguing it shouldn’t be done. I just don’t believe it’s doable with this set up. So I  accept if I’m playing warhammer I won’t get the video game balanced but I get the amazing models, great choice of distinct faction, a fluffy rules. It’s a personal preference but it for me manages my expectations and age of sigmar hasn’t disappointed me in that regard yet  

and fundamentally, don’t know if any body else mentioned it before though, GW has gone on the record plenty of times saying models come first rules and narrative after that. So their core business is making the best models, not the best rules. But that’s more of a side note. 

 

[Laststand]

@Eevika can I ask what army you primarily use? 

[overtninja]

On 7/9/2019 at 2:21 PM, Eevika said:

Why would GW then even make elite armies a thing if they know they are absolute garbage?

The critical downside of a horde-based army is that you get in your own way - your units are so large that they prevent your army from having any real mobility unless your models can Fly. You'll note that, for instance, Nagash and his Morghasts can fly, so he can happily carpet the field with skeletons.

Since mobility is such a huge deal in AoS, with a horde-based army you can very easily shoot yourself in the foot, being utterly unable to move properly, and exposing yourself to getting pinned into combat from the sides or back in extremely unfavorable ways.

Elite armies, or at least those with lower model counts, end up with a lot more movement freedom.

[Duke of Gisoreux]

On 7/8/2019 at 1:39 PM, EMMachine said:

1. Grot Scraplauncher (Deadly Rain of Scrap)
2. Decimators (Thunderaxe)
3. Plagueclaw (Barrage of Disease)
4. Field Mortar (High Explosive)

5. Field Trebuchet (auto hits units of 7+ models)

4 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

Demigryphs 130/260/380/500 (minor reduction in larger groups, but they do need to be able to stack to 12 to be able to be in a Great Company.

Demigryph Knights are not allowed in a Great Company as they are not FREEGUILD.

[zilberfrid]

16 minutes ago, Duke of Gisoreux said:

Demigryph Knights are not allowed in a Great Company as they are not FREEGUILD.

You are correct! I have never tried doing it, but they are the only unit in free peoples not in a Freeguild.

A max of 9 models in a unit would do okay then.

[Mogwai Man]

Behemoths should be more focused on being anti-horde. The Magmadroth is an example of a monster that has abilities to deal out mortal wounds against large unit sizes (Roaring Fyrestream, Volcanic Blood, Lashing Tail).