Meeting Engagements: Reserves

[WhiskeyjackZA]

How do reserve units work in Meeting Engagements?  Let's say I have a unit of NH Reapers I want to jump in as part of my main contingent. The main contingent in the scenario enters end turn 1. 

Questions:

(1) Will this mean they are setup at the end of turn 2, as per normal NH Faction abilities?

(2) At what stage can I declare them to be reserves / using the NH ability? At the start of the battle when declaring the armies and contingents OR or when the contingent is setup to enter battle? (Related bonus question - let's say the contingent only contains 1 unit - can it be setup in reserve?)

(3) My understanding is that it is only a unit that for instance has to be setup prior to the contingent arriving that will be lost? (That you cannot use that part of the rules to for argue the same Reapers are lost because they cannot enter end of turn 1 since their rules only allow them to be setup at the end of a movement phase. This would basically turn-off all reserve abilities since most work in the movement phase and contingents enter end of turn)

 

 

 

 

[EMMachine]

18 minutes ago, stato said:

Reading Stormcast battletome it says;

'Instead of setting up a STORMCAST ETERNAL unit on the battlefeld, you can place it to one side and say that it is set up in the Celestial Realm as a reserve unit'

So when units are 'set up on the battlefield' in end of turn 1 or 2, you can set up some of those units in the celestial realm.  Being 'set up' in the celestial is allowed by the rules you quoted above.

 

It's actually a valid point because "Arrival Time" only mentions "set up" and not "set up on the battlefield " like "Reserve units" does.

[soak314]

Book only restricts reserves to NOT deploying 'before the arrival time of the contingent those units belong to', and otherwise says to follow normal setup rules (p 75 ghb 2k19)

I'd say you're gold on deploying them as normal. since this particular instance has them coming out *after* their contingent, following their rules as normal on the turn they arrive.

I'm not entirely sure what these special reserves rules for ME are meant to cover, tbh, as I haven't run into any deepstrikers that specify 'on the first turn of battle' or similar in their conditions.

[stato]

4 hours ago, Grimnir said:

No deepstrike and other reserves. 

ARRIVAL TIME Each contingent has an arrival time, which is when it must be set up on the battlefield. This will be indicated on the map included in the battleplan, and will specify either ‘Start’, ‘Turn 1’ or ‘Turn 2’. Contingents with the ‘Start’ arrival time are set up before the start of the battle. Contingents with the ‘Turn 1’ arrival time are set up at the end of the controlling player’s first turn; contingents with the ‘Turn 2’ arrival time are set up at the end of the controlling player’s second turn. Any units that cannot be set up at their contingent’s arrival time for any reason are destroyed.

RESERVE UNITS In a Meeting Engagement, reserve units cannot be set up on the battlefield before the arrival time of the contingent those units belong to. If a reserve unit has to be set up on the battlefield at a specific point – e.g. at the start of the controlling player’s first turn – but that point comes before the contingent’s arrival time, that unit cannot be used as a reserve unit in that battle – either set that unit up with the rest of its contingent or do not use that unit.

 

Cant deploy before and cant deploy after

Reading Stormcast battletome it says;

'Instead of setting up a STORMCAST ETERNAL unit on the battlefeld, you can place it to one side and say that it is set up in the Celestial Realm as a reserve unit'

So when units are 'set up on the battlefield' in end of turn 1 or 2, you can set up some of those units in the celestial realm.  Being 'set up' in the celestial is allowed by the rules you quoted above.

 

[Platypus]

Yes, set up and being deployed on the battlefield from any reserve (underworlds, sky etc.) are two different things. Usually when you setup reserve units you can choose to put them in a reserve place. The rules about the arrival time refers to when you put them in reserve, the second paragraph refers to when they actually are put on the battlefield.

[Fert]

The issue I have with reserves in meeting engagements is that most deep striking units arrive at the start of a hero phase or end of a movement phase... But the contingent they are likely part of will arrive at the END OF THE TURN.  Thus, according to the rules, must be setup with their contingent or not at all.   So basically, no deep striking.  TBH, the meeting engagements need an FAQ to clear up some nonsense.

[Kramer]

32 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

You just deep strike at during the Hero phase or end of movement phase after the turn the contingent arrives. It’s not really that big a problem.

No. I might be wrong but the rules state that: "If a reserve unit has to be set up on the battlefield at a specific point - e.g. at the start of the controlling player's first turn - but that point comes before the contingent's arrival time, that unit cannot be used as a reserve unit in that battle - either set up that unit with the rest of its contingent or do not use that unit. "

So two reasons why your suggestion actually is a big problem.

1. you're breaking a rule just to be able to use an ability. Every contingent after the first enters at the end of the turn. So unless it happens at set up, you just can't use that ability because it automatically means 'that point' comes before the contingent's arrival time. You can't transfer that to another turn. 
2. It kind of defeats the whole intent (and more importantly in my mind the narrative  ). It's a traveling army  and the way the rules are only the first contingent can use reserves, so after that when you take your turn the opponents contingent is already on the table. By transferring the reserves ability to the next turn it means I can't react to their set up. Which is clearly (in my mind at least) against the intent of the rule and the narrative of meeting engagements.

Of course big problem is very subjective. If you think is cooler to house rules the reserves rules in the way you describe, fair play to you. 

[Kramer]

49 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

There is that but there also units which are worded that are just setup and no indication of when that setup occurs. Khinerai for example do not have to be setup at the start of the game. So they can arrive with the contingent and then set up in the sky and deep strike the following turn. Just make sure your setups don’t say a specific turn.

 

A traveling army doesn’t mean that you will not have soldiers making moves to flank or other objectives.

Absolutely and what I said, and how the rules are written, allows for that. 

50 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

And I am not saying you can deep strike a unit before the contingent arrives just do it after it has arrived:

Sure do so if you want. But it's not what the rules allow. (also I didn't imply that you said so did I? If so, that was not the intent, I was merely disputing that setting it up the turn after isn't a big problem. From the way I understand the rules it's clearly not what the rules say, which is kind of the point of rules question. What does the rule allow/mean  )

[Fert]

So following all the noise... an faq would be nice eh?

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, Fert said:

So following all the noise... an faq would be nice eh?

Yeah, especially with units like death masters or Loonsmashas where this units can basically be put into a unit etc.

a clarification of those ability in that game system would definitely be cool

[EMMachine]

With the answer of @Grimnir in mind, it is really a strange situation, that both rules together basicly deny regular Reservesabilities of units, because Meeting Engagments doesn't set up units in the Hero or movement phase where all Reserve units are normally set up.

I don't know any reserve units that are set up at the end of the players turn, so they basicly could have said "you can't use reserveabilities" except this rule the rule is only in there that you can use Teleport Abilities.

[WhiskeyjackZA]

On 7/3/2019 at 12:25 AM, King Taloren said:

You just deep strike at during the Hero phase or end of movement phase after the turn the contingent arrives. It’s not really that big a problem.

This is my reading as well and how we have been playing. So if my deep strike unit's contingent arrives the end of that turn, we jump it in the next turn at the end of the movement phase as per warscroll (my DoK LT/HR)  / army ability (my NH stuff that all "deep-strike" end of movement phase).

 

@Everyone: Nobody seems to bite on my 2nd question or the bonus question. Of course if you cannot "deep-strike" then it is moot, but let's assume you can as I have outlined "deep-strike" in the turn following the turn your contingent was setup. (So to be clear the contingent comes in end turn 1, I deep strike the unit in my turn 2 at the end of the movement phase) 

 

When do you put them in "deep-strike"? When the contingent arrives or do you have to declare at the start of the game which units in all contingents will be  deep-striking'? If you only declare a "deep-strike" unit during the deployment of the contingent - it would mean you can decided effectively based on the board state if you want to "deep-strike". 

 

How will any of this impact on placing a single deep-strike unit as a contingent - say 5 Lifetakers as your rearguard?

 

 

[EMMachine]

2 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

This does not stop units that say “instead of being setup on the battlefield place the unit into reserve”.  It does stop units that require setup in reserves at the start of the battle from being used in later contingents. Clan Moulder and Stormcasts come to mind as units that would have that issue. As I believe the rules for their deep striking require they are setup before the game begins. And moulder requires they deploy on the first turn. I could be wrong about that... 

Stormcast Eternals don't even have that problem. @stato had already quoted that part.

3 hours ago, stato said:

'Instead of setting up a STORMCAST ETERNAL unit on the battlefeld, you can place it to one side and say that it is set up in the Celestial Realm as a reserve unit'

When you have a unit in rearguard you can basicly say that you place it in the Celestial Realm at the End of Turn two.

Which rule do you mean in case of Clan Moulder. I think you mean Clan Eshin (the Assassines).

• Hidden Killer should work because you decide for reserve when you would set up the model
• Gutterrunners should only work when the unit is put into spearhead, because they come in at the end of the first battlerounds movementphase (but also are set into reserve when set up.

[EMMachine]

6 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Ok. Hmmm.. the Stormcast still have to follow the 50/50 rule which makes for interesting things that an opponent can force fewer units to be deployed in reserve if he blasts the Stormcast off the table before he gets a chance to setup. 

I think you got something wrong here. Even a later killed unit was set up on the field, so the counter for how many units can be in reserve is already raised by one.

Let's say, you have 6 units 1 in spearhead, 3 in mainbody and 2 in rearguard.

The unit in spearhead can't go into reserve because no units were set up on the field. In mainbody 2 units could get into the celestial realm  after the first unit was deployed because 2 units were set up on the field and in rearguard 1 unit could get into reserve (or if only one unit was placed in reserve in the mainbody, both rearguard units could go into reserve).

[stato]

33 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

I think you got something wrong here. Even a later killed unit was set up on the field, so the counter for how many units can be in reserve is already raised by one.

Let's say, you have 6 units 1 in spearhead, 3 in mainbody and 2 in rearguard.

The unit in spearhead can't go into reserve because no units were set up on the field. In mainbody 2 units could get into the celestial realm  after the first unit was deployed because 2 units were set up on the field and in rearguard 1 unit could get into reserve (or if only one unit was placed in reserve in the mainbody, both rearguard units could go into reserve).

SC can deploy one unit in celestial realm for each unit they have delpoyed on the battlefield, so in your spearhead 3 (of 6) could be in the realm, of the main body at least 1 (of 3) could be, potentially all 3 if none in first wave were. 

The question @King Taloren is asking is does 'have deployed' in the requirement mean 'have deployed past tense' (as in all deployments so far) or 'have deployed currently'.  The rule was not written with the idea of mid game deployments so we need an FAQ really but id waiver on your side or, have deployed (total units), this is GW though so who knows 🤣

Edited July 4, 2019 by stato

[EMMachine]

11 minutes ago, stato said:

SC can deploy one unit in celestial realm for each unit they have delpoyed on the battlefield, so in your spearhead 3 (of 6) could be in the realm, of the main body at least 1 (of 3) could be, potentially all 3 if none in first wave were.  

How do you get 3 units in the realm in Spearhead?

You must have placed a unit on the field to put a unit into the realm. The other 5 units don't exist at this point because there decision to be placed on the field or into the celestial realm is made when their detachment would be placed. So you need 2 units in spearhead to place one in the Celestial Realm because the first unit must be placed on the board.

[stato]

5 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

How do you get 3 units in the realm in Spearhead?

You must have placed a unit on the field to put a unit into the realm. The other 5 units don't exist at this point because there decision to be placed on the field or into the celestial realm is made when their detachment would be placed. So you need 2 units in spearhead to place one in the Celestial Realm because the first unit must be placed on the board.

I said 3 (of 6), I'd mis read as you had 6 units in the spearhead.  You are right, if you only have one unit it cant be in the realm.

 

[Wired4War]

Nvm, didn't realize rules forums sorted.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Wired4War

[King Taloren]

3 hours ago, Fert said:

The issue I have with reserves in meeting engagements is that most deep striking units arrive at the start of a hero phase or end of a movement phase... But the contingent they are likely part of will arrive at the END OF THE TURN.  Thus, according to the rules, must be setup with their contingent or not at all.   So basically, no deep striking.  TBH, the meeting engagements need an FAQ to clear up some nonsense.

You just deep strike at during the Hero phase or end of movement phase after the turn the contingent arrives. It’s not really that big a problem.

Edited July 2, 2019 by King Taloren

[King Taloren]

17 minutes ago, Kramer said:

No. I might be wrong but the rules state that: "If a reserve unit has to be set up on the battlefield at a specific point - e.g. at the start of the controlling player's first turn - but that point comes before the contingent's arrival time, that unit cannot be used as a reserve unit in that battle - either set up that unit with the rest of its contingent or do not use that unit. "

So two reasons why your suggestion actually is a big problem.

1. you're breaking a rule just to be able to use an ability. Every contingent after the first enters at the end of the turn. So unless it happens at set up, you just can't use that ability because it automatically means 'that point' comes before the contingent's arrival time. You can't transfer that to another turn. 
2. It kind of defeats the whole intent (and more importantly in my mind the narrative  ). It's a traveling army  and the way the rules are only the first contingent can use reserves, so after that when you take your turn the opponents contingent is already on the table. By transferring the reserves ability to the next turn it means I can't react to their set up. Which is clearly (in my mind at least) against the intent of the rule and the narrative of meeting engagements.

Of course big problem is very subjective. If you think is cooler to house rules the reserves rules in the way you describe, fair play to you. 

There is that but there also units which are worded that are just setup and no indication of when that setup occurs. Khinerai for example do not have to be setup at the start of the game. So they can arrive with the contingent and then set up in the sky and deep strike the following turn. Just make sure your setups don’t say a specific turn.

 

A traveling army doesn’t mean that you will not have soldiers making moves to flank or other objectives.

 

And I am not saying you can deep strike a unit before the contingent arrives just do it after it has arrived:

Edited July 2, 2019 by King Taloren

[King Taloren]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

It's actually a valid point because "Arrival Time" only mentions "set up" and not "set up on the battlefield " like "Reserve units" does.

This is what I am reading. There is nothing to say that setup cannot be in reserve in for  deep-strike later in the game/turn. Merely that the unit cannot be setup, in reserve or the battlefield, until the arrival time.

[King Taloren]

7 hours ago, Grimnir said:

No deepstrike and other reserves. 

ARRIVAL TIME Each contingent has an arrival time, which is when it must be set up on the battlefield. This will be indicated on the map included in the battleplan, and will specify either ‘Start’, ‘Turn 1’ or ‘Turn 2’. Contingents with the ‘Start’ arrival time are set up before the start of the battle. Contingents with the ‘Turn 1’ arrival time are set up at the end of the controlling player’s first turn; contingents with the ‘Turn 2’ arrival time are set up at the end of the controlling player’s second turn. Any units that cannot be set up at their contingent’s arrival time for any reason are destroyed.

RESERVE UNITS In a Meeting Engagement, reserve units cannot be set up on the battlefield before the arrival time of the contingent those units belong to. If a reserve unit has to be set up on the battlefield at a specific point – e.g. at the start of the controlling player’s first turn – but that point comes before the contingent’s arrival time, that unit cannot be used as a reserve unit in that battle – either set that unit up with the rest of its contingent or do not use that unit.

 

Cant deploy before and cant deploy after

It does not say that a unit cannot be set up in reserve. Nor does it say that the unit cannot deep strike. It says they cannot be be setup on the battlefield before the arrival time of the contingent they are a part of. The part you helpfully bold and underlined.

If reserves were not allowed why the sentences about timing and just flat out say NO UNITS CAN BE PLACED IN RESERVES. They say it pretty explicitly in battle plans like Total Commitment  which you cannot place a unit in reserve.

 

Also setup does not specifically call out that they have to be on the battlefield. Merely that they must be setup.

This does not stop units that say “instead of being setup on the battlefield place the unit into reserve”.  It does stop units that require setup in reserves at the start of the battle from being used in later contingents. Clan Moulder and Stormcasts come to mind as units that would have that issue. As I believe the rules for their deep striking require they are setup before the game begins. And moulder requires they deploy on the first turn. I could be wrong about that...

 

And I am willing to bet actual money that the Unit cannot be setup is destroyed is for units deploying on the battlefield. If you can’t set it up following deployment rules it’s destroyed. Like the normal 9” away from enemy units if your opponent bum rushes to the end of the field and makes it so you can’t deploy your units then they are destroyed 

Edited July 4, 2019 by King Taloren

[King Taloren]

14 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

Stormcast Eternals don't even have that problem. @stato had already quoted that part.

Ok. Hmmm.. the Stormcast still have to follow the 50/50 rule which makes for interesting things that an opponent can force fewer units to be deployed in reserve if he blasts the Stormcast off the table before he gets a chance to setup. 

[Grimnir]

No deepstrike and other reserves. 

ARRIVAL TIME Each contingent has an arrival time, which is when it must be set up on the battlefield. This will be indicated on the map included in the battleplan, and will specify either ‘Start’, ‘Turn 1’ or ‘Turn 2’. Contingents with the ‘Start’ arrival time are set up before the start of the battle. Contingents with the ‘Turn 1’ arrival time are set up at the end of the controlling player’s first turn; contingents with the ‘Turn 2’ arrival time are set up at the end of the controlling player’s second turn. Any units that cannot be set up at their contingent’s arrival time for any reason are destroyed.

RESERVE UNITS In a Meeting Engagement, reserve units cannot be set up on the battlefield before the arrival time of the contingent those units belong to. If a reserve unit has to be set up on the battlefield at a specific point – e.g. at the start of the controlling player’s first turn – but that point comes before the contingent’s arrival time, that unit cannot be used as a reserve unit in that battle – either set that unit up with the rest of its contingent or do not use that unit.

 

Cant deploy before and cant deploy after