The great big Generals Handbook 2019 Discussion Topic

[RuneBrush]

Here we go folks, THE place to go to talk about upcoming changes in the new Generals Handbook, be it rules, or points!  Let's keep the rumour thread clean if we can.

I will leave you with my usual TGA disclaimer - positive conversations please, if you want to rant or vent about something, then please take it elsewhere.  Thanks folks!

[Thiagoma]

Glad they nerfed Dragonlords! 

Now Order Draconis will stop dominating the competitive scene!

[Thiagoma]

Former High Elves Factions overall received mixed signals. 

Raised Dragonlords cost and reduced Blades.

Reduced Swordmaster cost (weired choice since the current models are reeealy old and with 5 models only). Also they say 40 models but the max is 30, so unless there was a typo there, thingsare really weired.

Options for Phoenix without anointed. Even if it is way cheaper, the usefull part about both of then comes from the Anointed. Also, keeping the 380 price tag on the Flame bird is meh.

 

The lack of significant changes lead me to belive on a Battletome soon. Same for ogors and orcs.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Thiagoma

[prochuvi]

--Battletomes armys got across the boards buffs to every unit

--broken units got minor nerfs as eels(6% increase in points),some a bit bigger as reapers or wytches(10-20%) and we dont know about evocators

--non batletome armys got a big nerf to units as dragonlord and karl franz in grifon 

--non battletome armys got minor buffs to some units as dark elfs,others buffs across the board as wanderers 

-- non battletome army and a botton army as dispossesed got a nerf of 12% increase to warriors and zero buffs to the others units ,but a buff to heroes who are almost zero of the % point of a armylist

 

Those changues have zero sense and wont changue nothing of the meta,and it gonna increase the gap betwen battletome and non battletome armys more

[tripchimeras]

All I wanted was to be able to finally take my Allopex spam list with a sea turtle and an Eidolan for support.  Is that too much to ask?  Anyone....  Okay I admit I may have had my sights set just a tad high for this ghb release, but still a guys gotta be able to dream. 

Kidding aside I was really banking on Eidolan getting a significant cost reduction in the wake of so many like characters since being so damn cheap.   That was really all I wanted out of this, and it really looks like that is def not happening.

[Kramer]

3 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

The lack of significant changes lead me to belive on a Battletome soon. Same for ogors and orcs.

Yeah I thought the same thing. Changes to the GHB allegiance rules for some others might account for some unexpected changes such as Dispossessed. But I as alway ill have to wait and see, to actually judge the changes to the scene as we don't have the full picture yet.

[HammerOfSigmar]

I care more about the following

"However, to make sure your Pitched Battles are as balanced as possible, we’ll be releasing an early (and free) points update to the most recent battletomes – for reference, that’s Skaven, Blades of Khorne, Fyreslayers, Gloomspite Gitz and Flesh-eater Courts. Keep an eye out for this – and the General’s Handbook 2019 FAQ – in early July."

Since skaven and FEC have the most broken units in the game currently.

[tripchimeras]

2 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Yeah I thought the same thing. Changes to the GHB allegiance rules for some others might account for some unexpected changes such as Dispossessed. But I as alway ill have to wait and see, to actually judge the changes to the scene as we don't have the full picture yet.

But what are forum discussion's for if not to dissect the minutest detail of leaked info, without any big picture for reference, preferably through the most negative lens possible?  That's why we're all here isn't it 😉? 

Seriously though, I find baseless speculation fun.  Sure, I end up looking like an idiot about 75% of the time, but every so often I get to feel like a prophetic genius, rare but occasionally it happens.

[novakai]

It feels weird and a bit suspicious though that they bother to say that there will be no point change for Bonesplitterz and Gutbuster, they for sure could have just not written anything.

optimistically I want to say that it means a tome is coming for these two soon because they could have just given Gutbuster a bone and said that Ironblaster got an insignificant 10pt decrease

[Drofnum]

9 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

But what are forum discussion's for if not to dissect the minutest detail of leaked info, without any big picture for reference, preferably through the most negative lens possible?  That's why we're all here isn't it 😉? 

Seriously though, I find baseless speculation fun.  Sure, I end up looking like an idiot about 75% of the time, but every so often I get to feel like a prophetic genius, rare but occasionally it happens.

I tend to speculate to the positive, makes life a bit less miserable in my opinion.  But either way works I suppose.

[tripchimeras]

Just now, Drofnum said:

I tend to speculate to the positive, makes life a bit less miserable in my opinion.  But either way works I suppose.

Everything in moderation I say.  Both can be fun depending on mood and circumstances.  For better or worse I think it can be difficult not to scew negative with GW though.  The sting of betrayal left after 8th edition, even 4 years later, has never fully healed... The little we've seen from the GHB point reveal feels a lot more like the GW of old in terms of lack of understanding of their own game, but as others have pointed out obviously we know little, and small changes spread out can end up making large differences.

[PJetski]

Power is relative... There's not much to talk about until they release the pdf with changes to the 2019 battletomes 🙄

It's annoying that I have two tournaments scheduled between GHB release and point pdf release.

 

[HollowHills]

Following on from idoneth discussion in the rumour thread. 

The main issue for Idoneth is that right now to be competitive you have to take eels. You can either do this in a reverse tide build or a deepstrike king and eel build. 

This is less to do with the fact that eels are really strong, although they are good, and more that everything else in the army is weak. 

If you compare an eidolon (either type) with similar units. For example Treelord ancient / durthu or any of thee verminlords. The eidolon comes off very poorly for its cost, even considering all the book rules avaliable to respective armies. 

The shark and Leviadon are both low damage for the points cost with underwhelming abilities. For example, the cover bonus sounds good but you're an army that wants to be charging. It would benefit thralls most, but it's hard to get them in range due to their large base sizes. 

Thralls and reavers are struggling. Reavers mainly because shooting in general is fairly poor at the moment. Thralls main issue is that the 5 up save means they get wiped off the board unless they attack first, but the wholly within limits of support abilities stops you taking them in units of 30 to offset the poor save. They also struggle with bravery. Lastly, the elephant in the room, 32mm bases are very punishing. 

Lotann is... I don't even know what lotann is. Probably my favourite model in aos with some of the worst rules in the world. 

Anyway all this combines to basically lead me to state that eels should probably be higher points, with everything else much lower. 

[Drofnum]

7 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Following on from idoneth discussion in the rumour thread. 

The main issue for Idoneth is that right now to be competitive you have to take eels. You can either do this in a reverse tide build or a deepstrike king and eel build. 

This is less to do with the fact that eels are really strong, although they are good, and more that everything else in the army is weak. 

If you compare an eidolon (either type) with similar units. For example Treelord ancient / durthu or any of thee verminlords. The eidolon comes off very poorly for its cost, even considering all the book rules avaliable to respective armies. 

The shark and Leviadon are both low damage for the points cost with underwhelming abilities. For example, the cover bonus sounds good but you're an army that wants to be charging. It would benefit thralls most, but it's hard to get them in range due to their large base sizes. 

Thralls and reavers are struggling. Reavers mainly because shooting in general is fairly poor at the moment. Thralls main issue is that the 5 up save means they get wiped off the board unless they attack first, but the wholly within limits of support abilities stops you taking them in units of 30 to offset the poor save. They also struggle with bravery. Lastly, the elephant in the room, 32mm bases are very punishing. 

Lotann is... I don't even know what lotann is. Probably my favourite model in aos with some of the worst rules in the world. 

Anyway all this combines to basically lead me to state that eels should probably be higher points, with everything else much lower. 

Have you playtested with larger units of Thralls or with the Eidolons?  This is just parroted on the internet with very little backing it up.  For example i took a list to LVO and came 20th with an Ediolon and would have been higher than that if i hadnt had a total loss of intelligence playing against the Khorne dragon.  Eidolon of the sea is actually quite good, i will admit Verminlords definitely change how I view him but we all know that Verminlords need some pretty big adjustments to put them in line with every other similar unit.

A unit of 20 Thralls backed by a Soulrender are very decent and honestly dont even need buffs to kill most things.  I've played with that quite a bit in multiple tournaments and games and think i've lost the unit 1 time.

Yes you will want eels for a competitive list but you can build an army with a bit of Namarti and Eels and still be plenty competitive.  FEC and Skaven definitely skew things but again we all know they are undercosted for the most part so the comparison is not really worth making, unless they dont get changed in July.

Allopex/Leviadon/Lotann are in serious need of some help though.  Depending on the points drop on the Leviadon he could be worth taking.  Sharks and Lotann probably need a rewrite or to cost half their points to be worth taking.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Drofnum

[TMS]

I'm stoked about the 40p drop on Blood Knights, although I fear a raise on the VLoZD. For more Soulblight things, the Bloodseeker Palanquin is in pretty desperate need of help and could use a good discount.

[tripchimeras]

27 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Following on from idoneth discussion in the rumour thread. 

The main issue for Idoneth is that right now to be competitive you have to take eels. You can either do this in a reverse tide build or a deepstrike king and eel build. 

This is less to do with the fact that eels are really strong, although they are good, and more that everything else in the army is weak. 

If you compare an eidolon (either type) with similar units. For example Treelord ancient / durthu or any of thee verminlords. The eidolon comes off very poorly for its cost, even considering all the book rules avaliable to respective armies. 

The shark and Leviadon are both low damage for the points cost with underwhelming abilities. For example, the cover bonus sounds good but you're an army that wants to be charging. It would benefit thralls most, but it's hard to get them in range due to their large base sizes. 

Thralls and reavers are struggling. Reavers mainly because shooting in general is fairly poor at the moment. Thralls main issue is that the 5 up save means they get wiped off the board unless they attack first, but the wholly within limits of support abilities stops you taking them in units of 30 to offset the poor save. They also struggle with bravery. Lastly, the elephant in the room, 32mm bases are very punishing. 

Lotann is... I don't even know what lotann is. Probably my favourite model in aos with some of the worst rules in the world. 

Anyway all this combines to basically lead me to state that eels should probably be higher points, with everything else much lower. 

I agree with most of this, particularly that the single biggest reason why 10-20pt changes on eels aren't enough to change lists being internal balance dictates that they are our only offensive choice.  I really do think thralls have something, its just that to your point the support they need is either too costly or too inefective with the bubbles.  I think the Eidolan of the sea doesn't even need to be comprably costed to its like models to be taken in a competitive deepkin list.  I think you shift Eidolan of sea even 40pts down it becomes quite viable, even now I am tempted by it daily.  I think with the multiple debuffs it can deal out combined with the artifact that gives 2 turn effect on one spell and it really opens up some of the armies options.  Problem is at current pts you aren't left with enough points to work with to make that effective.  

Leviadons and sharks suffer the age old GW problem of being dual purpose.  GW ALWAYS overvalues these units.  I suspect GW is putting a 60-80pt valuation on the leviadon's bow, and a 30-40pt valuation on the shark's.  And if you compare them in utility to the ~100pt artillery pieces you can understand why they reached this valuation.  But this is why the method GW points units becomes problematic so often.  On paper, yes an leviadons ranged weapon is about 2/3 as effective as a bolt thrower.  But in reality bolt throwers are only worth their points massed, and you can't mass leviadons.  In theory an allopexes ranged attack has some worth, but allopexes are nie useless in either combat or range if they aren't massed, and they are far too expensive to mass them.  Its just like the problem High Elves always had with Sea Guard.  In theory their bows are worth 2-3 points.  But in reality they are no better then spearmen in combat for 3 pts more, and significantly worse then archers at shooting for ~1 pts (memory fading on whether archers were 11 or 12 in 8th) more.  GW games are all about critical mass, almost always.  Even balanced lists need enough of each phase in order to build a critical mass in them.  So the more efficient option in each of those phases is almost always going to be preferred when looking for a solution in said phase.  As such for Dual units to be effective, that calculation needs to be taken into account, they are going to be less effective then equivalent options that specialize so a discount on their stats and abilities need to be taken into effect.  In this case the turtle needs to be 300-320 and the allopexes need to be in the 110-120 range.  At those price points, they become competent in the right builds.  But I am sure they violate GW's logic for points, and most of them just don't have the competitive mindsets to get it for whatever reason.

Thralls with a 10pt decrease I think are right in their sweet spot though, so happy about that.

Edited June 14, 2019 by tripchimeras

[MitGas]

I've read a few of the coming changes... sound quite good but why oh why didn't they reinvent (or reduce the points of) Screamers of Tzeentch? Lovely, lovely models but pretty much a bad pick 95% of the time.

[Barkanaut]

I remain skeptical a points drop will make ko viable.

[Belper]

55 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

--Battletomes armys got across the boards buffs to every unit

--broken units got minor nerfs as eels(6% increase in points),some a bit bigger as reapers or wytches(10-20%) and we dont know about evocators

--non batletome armys got a big nerf to units as dragonlord and karl franz in grifon 

--non battletome armys got minor buffs to some units as dark elfs,others buffs across the board as wanderers 

-- non battletome army and a botton army as dispossesed got a nerf of 12% increase to warriors and zero buffs to the others units ,but a buff to heroes who are almost zero of the % point of a armylist

 

Those changues have zero sense and wont changue nothing of the meta,and it gonna increase the gap betwen battletome and non battletome armys more

Dude, what. Your first sentence and second sentence directly contradict. 'Across the board buffs' and 'minor nerfs' are mutually exclusive.

[novakai]

5 minutes ago, Barkanaut said:

I remain skeptical a points drop will make ko viable.

I heard that spamming a lot of Arknauts is pretty strong (not like anyone wants to play that way)

but yeah I think the only thing that can really help KO is a rework Battletome 

[Kamose]

I know I'm the only person on Earth who will say this but I'm looking forward to the Open Play army generator. I'm seriously considering getting the special edition for the cards.

Open Play forever, baby! WHOOO! 

Btw, where are people getting info on point changes? Have they been leaked? 😄

Edited June 14, 2019 by Kamose

[Shankelton]

48 minutes ago, novakai said:

It feels weird and a bit suspicious though that they bother to say that there will be no point change for Bonesplitterz and Gutbuster, they for sure could have just not written anything.

optimistically I want to say that it means a tome is coming for these two soon because they could have just given Gutbuster a bone and said that Ironblaster got an insignificant 10pt decrease

Agreed. I'm very confident both these armies have a tome incoming. Guts dont even have allegiance abilities 1.0. I refuse to believe GW would ignore them again. 

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, tripchimeras said:

Seriously though, I find baseless speculation fun.  Sure, I end up looking like an idiot about 75% of the time, but every so often I get to feel like a prophetic genius, rare but occasionally it happens.

Yeah I know but I am a prophetic genius but letting it show always means fanboys accuse me of inside knowledge... it's so rough. 

Bird themed army 2020, You heard it here first people! 

[Chumphammer]

DoK only changes are the ones shown on the hand book note. Heartrenders only got a 10pt bump

Full pic is online

Edited June 14, 2019 by Chumphammer

[SleeperAgent]

(All this is based on the blurry NH page picture that's been circulated)

With these points changes I sincerely hope they are going to 3 month updates. Nighthaunt got basically nothing and are still as terrible as ever. And our one good unit got bumped, not because it's an allstar in NH, but because of Legions of Nagash. Mourngul down 20 points? What a joke. GW are you really trying to tell me a Mourngul is better than a Verminlord Warpseer?

20 points at a time is good if they are going to do this every 3 months. If they do 6 months or yearly they need to do more steep drops. Because every new army is literally destroying old armies that weren't broken from the get go (DoK). And that leads me to believe they are just doing power creep on purpose to sell more stuff and force people to do new armies or be left in the dust.

Edited June 14, 2019 by SleeperAgent